Trump-Mueller tensions escalate

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7_Sorrows said:
well the democrats got what they wanted. I guess whining and creating chaos will eventually get you what you want.
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Yeah, because having a presidential candidate try to collude with a hostile foreign government was caused by whining and creating chaos.
 
7_Sorrows said:
well the democrats got what they wanted. I guess whining and creating chaos will eventually get you what you want.
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If you mean the truth, yes, speaking as a registered Democrat that’s what I want, whatever that turns out to be after seeing where the investigation leads. I’d actually think that’s what every American who loves his or her country would want regardless of political loyalties. There’s nothing to fear or to pardon if there is nothing there and no wrongdoing. 🤷
 
A couple of Trump’s lawyers have jumped ship (including longtime attorney Kasowitz). The people in his orbit are starting to realize what’s coming.
 
lmachine said:
A couple of Trump’s lawyers have jumped ship (including longtime attorney Kasowitz). The people in his orbit are starting to realize what’s coming.
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I tend not to speculate on such matters, but this seems to be an exceptionally odd move with exceptionally interesting timing. Trump and his circle aren’t acting like people with nothing to hide who are caught up in a witch hunt.
 
Jig_Saw said:
Yeah, because having a presidential candidate try to collude with a hostile foreign government was caused by whining and creating chaos.
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Hey now, whining and creating chaos can get one elected to the presidency!
 
Ghosty said:
I tend not to speculate on such matters, but this seems to be an exceptionally odd move with exceptionally interesting timing. Trump and his circle aren’t acting like people with nothing to hide who are caught up in a witch hunt.
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It can be interesting to read some of the agreements high-end executives and technical types have with their employers or contractors. Same with a lot of business contracts. Many, if not most, have “secrecy” clauses in them. The purpose is to prevent later disclosure of trade secrets, sources of business, methods of business, etc.

The purpose is competitive. They don’t want their competitors to know all their relationships and ways of doing things.

Ultimately, every "trade secret’ the Trump organization has will be “leaked” in some manner, or simply disclosed openly as part of a critique. I don’t blame Trump for criticizing Mueller for digging into the business affairs of his companies.

Why is all of this happening? It’s happening because justice is knocked askew in the “special prosecutor” arrangement. Instead of investigating known crimes, it ends up investigating people to see if they have committed crimes, and sometimes not even crimes. Granted, Bill Clinton lied under oath. But what was that about? A non-crime; having an affair.

As Democrat Alan Dershowitz pointed out, this is Stalinist legal practice, not American justice.

Maybe Trump or somebody in his organization committed a crime, or will commit one by failing to respond fully to some interrogation. But the American justice system is about prosecuting known crimes, not boring into peoples’ lives to see if perhaps they have committed some crime or will commit one in the future under the pressure of the investigation.

Maybe Trump will be able to remain unscathed by all of this, and maybe he won’t. But one thing is for sure. No ordinary person in this country could withstand this kind of thing.
 
Ridgerunner said:
It can be interesting to read some of the agreements high-end executives and technical types have with their employers or contractors. Same with a lot of business contracts. Many, if not most, have “secrecy” clauses in them. The purpose is to prevent later disclosure of trade secrets, sources of business, methods of business, etc.

The purpose is competitive. They don’t want their competitors to know all their relationships and ways of doing things.

Ultimately, every "trade secret’ the Trump organization has will be “leaked” in some manner, or simply disclosed openly as part of a critique. I don’t blame Trump for criticizing Mueller for digging into the business affairs of his companies.

Why is all of this happening? It’s happening because justice is knocked askew in the “special prosecutor” arrangement. Instead of investigating known crimes, it ends up investigating people to see if they have committed crimes, and sometimes not even crimes. Granted, Bill Clinton lied under oath. But what was that about? A non-crime; having an affair.

As Democrat Alan Dershowitz pointed out, this is Stalinist legal practice, not American justice.

Maybe Trump or somebody in his organization committed a crime, or will commit one by failing to respond fully to some interrogation. But the American justice system is about prosecuting known crimes, not boring into peoples’ lives to see if perhaps they have committed some crime or will commit one in the future under the pressure of the investigation.

Maybe Trump will be able to remain unscathed by all of this, and maybe he won’t. But one thing is for sure. No ordinary person in this country could withstand this kind of thing.
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+1

But to many posters here, Stalinist legal practice is okay, but anything else having to do with Russia is not.
 
lmachine said:
A couple of Trump’s lawyers have jumped ship (including longtime attorney Kasowitz). The people in his orbit are starting to realize what’s coming.
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This is incorrect. Kasowitz is taking a reduced role. He hasn’t jumped ship.

Who is the second lawyer who reportedly jumped ship?
 
Ridgerunner said:
It can be interesting to read some of the agreements high-end executives and technical types have with their employers or contractors. Same with a lot of business contracts. Many, if not most, have “secrecy” clauses in them. The purpose is to prevent later disclosure of trade secrets, sources of business, methods of business, etc.

The purpose is competitive. They don’t want their competitors to know all their relationships and ways of doing things.

Ultimately, every "trade secret’ the Trump organization has will be “leaked” in some manner, or simply disclosed openly as part of a critique. I don’t blame Trump for criticizing Mueller for digging into the business affairs of his companies.

Why is all of this happening? It’s happening because justice is knocked askew in the “special prosecutor” arrangement. Instead of investigating known crimes, it ends up investigating people to see if they have committed crimes, and sometimes not even crimes. Granted, Bill Clinton lied under oath. But what was that about? A non-crime; having an affair.

As Democrat Alan Dershowitz pointed out, this is Stalinist legal practice, not American justice.

Maybe Trump or somebody in his organization committed a crime, or will commit one by failing to respond fully to some interrogation. But the American justice system is about prosecuting known crimes, not boring into peoples’ lives to see if perhaps they have committed some crime or will commit one in the future under the pressure of the investigation.

Maybe Trump will be able to remain unscathed by all of this, and maybe he won’t. But one thing is for sure. No ordinary person in this country could withstand this kind of thing.
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There is some truth here, but also some important differences. Trump for one is the President. He is known to own a large stake in many companies or subsidiaries. If there are substantial gains made by illegal methods he could well run afoul of the emoluments clause. This is an Impeachable issue.

He has failed to provide any meaningful disclosure of his financial activities…even though he “promised” to release his tax information if he was elected. He generally has been evasive in clearly defining and demonstrating the amount of distance he has placed between him and his business interests. The Russian thing has been a constant stream of statements that “only this” happened and yet a few days later those involved have to admit to there being more; often in rapid succession.

So yes in this case what is going on is important. I also think a good amount of this is self inflicted through hubris and evasiveness. Image is very important as most know. The President needs an extraordinarily clean perception that he is actions are aboveboard, constant little lies by omission can turn into one major, maybe Impeachable, lie.
 
7_Sorrows said:
+1

But to many posters here, Stalinist legal practice is okay, but anything else having to do with Russia is not.
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The left is inherently totalitarian. It is totalitarian because its tenets run contrary to human nature in many ways. So force is necessary to the accomplishment of its goals.

And let’s not too easily conclude that the left somehow disapproves of Putinism per se. Right now, Putin is simply an excuse to prosecute Trump. Putin himself is not the left’s bête noir. Where were the attacks by the left on Putin for the last eight years? Where were the criticisms of the Clinton Foundation receiving $150 million from Russians? Where were the criticisms of John Podesta receiving 75,000 shares of stock in a Russian company?

No. If the American left had its way, it would have its own Putin. Americans should be very concerned about that.
 
PJH_74 said:
There is some truth here, but also some important differences. Trump for one is the President. He is known to own a large stake in many companies or subsidiaries. If there are substantial gains made by illegal methods he could well run afoul of the emoluments clause. This is an Impeachable issue.

He has failed to provide any meaningful disclosure of his financial activities…even though he “promised” to release his tax information if he was elected. He generally has been evasive in clearly defining and demonstrating the amount of distance he has placed between him and his business interests. The Russian thing has been a constant stream of statements that “only this” happened and yet a few days later those involved have to admit to there being more; often in rapid succession.

So yes in this case what is going on is important. I also think a good amount of this is self inflicted through hubris and evasiveness. Image is very important as most know. The President needs an extraordinarily clean perception that he is actions are aboveboard, constant little lies by omission can turn into one major, maybe Impeachable, lie.
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Investigation on a titanic scale when there is no known crime is simply not what justice is all about. With Nixon, there was a known crime; a burglary. With Clinton there was no known crime, and it should not have happened. With Trump there is no known crime, and none was known after months of investigation.

This is a fishing expedition entirely. Given the resources the government has, no citizen could stand up under such a thing. It’s easy for people who hate Trump (as it was for those who hated Clinton) to feel it’s justified because they just feel he “surely” did something. That’s animus-driven. It’s not justice.

And it will end up just like the “investigation” of Poindexter and Libby. Somebody or other will make a mistake and be prosecuted for it. As in those cases, injustice occurred.

One can think of it this way. If the government decided to target any one of us without having evidence that we had committed any crime, and spent thousands of expensive man-hours and millions of dollars in the process. And if the government pressed others to “tell the truth” on you or be prosecuted themselves, we would be just as good as jailed the moment the process started.

Trump might well survive it, and I think he will. He has the money and the lawyers to do it. But Mueller will not rest until he indicts somebody, and probably not for anything the person committed in the past, but for some misstatement, some incomplete disclosure, or something entirely unrelated to the purported purposes of the investigation.

Somebody who has not “colluded with Russia” (which isn’t even a crime if it happened) is going to be indicted. Guaranteed.
 
AFerri48 said:
Why do I have a feeling that Trump’s about to do something extremely stupid, such as firing Mueller? The guy is handling the Russia probe so poorly, it’s ridiculous.
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Do you think letting Mueller and his cadre of Clinton and Obama donors and bundlers run Democrat opposition research on the Justice Department’s dime is smarter?
 
7_Sorrows said:
I read Breitbart also and have never come across antisemitic material.
They have to find a way to smear Breitbart and discredit Breitbart as a legitimate
news source.
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Breitbart has proven to be the leader in false news and out right lies. How sad that so many here put party solely above God and country. This “us against them” mentality is not sustainable. I pray the rosary every day for our country and its leaders.
 
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