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FractalFire
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Actually, I WAS referring to you, but reading back through the posts, that’s only because I confused you with QuidVeritasEst and thought you were the one who compared Republicans to Nazis. Sorry about that.
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FractalFire
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I quite agree, but good luck stopping it.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
My point wasn’t about the hurt feelings :bighanky: as it was along the lines of ideology and political science.
It is impossible from a purely political science POV for an American Constitutional conservative to be a NAZI. The two are diametrically opposed.
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Leo2014
Guest
I would like to hear your argument, because that is not the party that I know. If anything, the statement is simply self-righteous.
The reality is that there is not very much difference between the two parties. Under both administrations, we have seen government get bigger, jobs dissipate and deficits just dangerously increase. You cannot make the argument that these two parties are “diametrically” different…now that would be a false statement.
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QuidVeritasEst
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You think it is possible to both support the US constitution and advocate Republican-esque legislated morality?
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QuidVeritasEst
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_LawWhy does every discussion end with a comparison to Hitler and the Nazis?
Sadly, as voters, we don’t know what we want. I think we throw in to the “moral clause” just to make ourselves feel good about a poor decision. Unfortunately, the most highly regarded moral leader that I can think of - at lease within my lifetime - was Jimmy Carter. He professes his faith, still married to the same woman and is active within his church. Yet, Americans don’t regard him as an effective leader.
Yes, I too am a recovering Republican.
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Leo2014
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I apologize for my stupidity - but are you trying to define yourself as a single issue voter? If the issue is abortion, there have been many Republican Presidents since 1973 when Roe vs Wade was passed. My question would be; how effective have those representatives of “legislated morality” been?
Now, all those that stood out in front of a Planned Parenthood a couple times - don’t write in. Grace to you for your efforts. However, the only change that will be effective is to teach your young folks your moral values. Also, is there any effective Catholic lobbying groups? Or is that an oxymoron?
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gamewell45
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I’d write in my name before voting for Trump or Hillary. Neither of them represent my best interests.
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AFerri48
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To be fair, this is accurate. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr have all been Republican presidents since 1973, and equals up to 23 years of presidency.
However, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr have added conservatives judges to the supreme court. If Roe vs Wade was challenged in court right now, it would likely be upheld 5-4, which means that we are one justice short.
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Peter_J
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I wouldn’t say oxymoron, but I don’t know if there are any Catholic lobbying groups … or whether there are Anglican lobbying groups, Lutheran lobbying groups, etc etc.
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TK421
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If Trump is elected, his image will massacre Christianity in the United States. He has already done grave harm. Obama/Hillary offer Christians the crown of white martyrdom if nothing else, but there will be no martyrdom from Trump; only disgrace and embarrassment that we would have to spend decades answering for, and at a terrible price to our evangelization. This doesn’t make voting for a culture of death candidate acceptable, so I would either abstain from voting or waste my vote on a 3rd party candidate. Either way the country would have to brace itself for an era of darkness.
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Leo2014
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That is just the opportunity of circumstance. It seems absurd to have to wait for a Judge to step-down and just hope that the candidate of your choice picks a favorable appointee. Besides, what if it happens to be the two judges that Reagan appointed to be the next to step down and Hillary gets to appoint their replacements? No wonder why we have waited forty plus years and counting with no change…
Gay rights and marriage was not even something discussed publicly in 1973. Yet, look at how influential that movement has been in forty years. Their community has less than a million registered married couples (I have found numbers closer to 600K).
The worst part is that we have nearly 70 million Catholics in the US and cannot seem to be as influential. I think it is wrong to vote with just a single issue for consideration. Besides, it has not worked.
We can learn something from the other side of the fence in regards to getting the job done…
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Leo2014
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I think abstaining from being part of the system is the worst thing that you can do! As Christians, it is our duty to spread the message of our Lord. From that perspective, can we blame no one but ourselves?
Unfortunately, you cannot be a single issue voter in these times when we have so many issues of equal concern. We need to show our support for others within our community and standup when we see moral wrong doings…but we don’t. The reason a third party seems like a waste is because of your apathy. It is a shame that a country our size is control by just simply two parties that both favor the interest of big business before the concerns of its citizens!
I hate to browbeat. But there is just a lot of problems with our inability to convey a message of morality and we give up way too easily.
Remember, there are other issues on the ballot…your vote is important!
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jediliz
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If Clinton is elected, she could appoint several PRO ABORTION supreme court justices. Wasting a vote on a third party candidate would put any chance to overturn roe vs wade back another 100 years. Not to mention…any defunding of planned parenthood.
Trump might keep planned parenthood funded.
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FractalFire
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As I think both this poll and recent polls done by the media point out, Trump is almost certain to lose if he goes against Hillary. Which ironically, may make the Republican Caucus *more *important than the actual election.
That being said, it’s important to remember that abortion is not exactly the only moral issue Christians need to deal with – it’s arguably one of the most important, but not the *only * one. As the Democrats love to chastise whenever they get the chance, we need to make sure to also concentrate on the poor, sick, and others in need (of course, Christians typically do, but many are only seeing this through a political lens). If Trump abrogates religious freedom, even temporarily, there is a chance of setting yet another horrible moral precedent like Roe vs. Wade. We have quite enough of those to deal with now, thank you very much.
I would think very carefully (more carefully than I am now) about my options before making a final decision, but I cannot blame those who would feel obliged to vote for a third party or abstain for moral reasons (or for that matter, those who would vote for whichever they consider the lesser of two evils).
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jediliz
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abortion IS the most important as it deals with the deliberate destruction of HUMAN LIFE, that is created in the image and likeness of GOD.
Yes, we must help the poor as well, but a democrat that wants to raise taxes and give free everything is NOT helping the poor. The working poor will suffer if taxes are raised because that means they would have less take home pay (the more their company has to pay in taxes, the less they can pay their employees and still have a tiny bit of profit to keep them in the black). That hurts the poor. sure, you think you are hurting the “rich” but there are some rich that aren’t the scum of the universe…there are some “rich” that support the poor…and the more taxes they are charged, the less they can help, even with tax deductions for donations.
Plus,its not the government’s job to help the poor - it is OUR duty to help.
Voting third party IS throwing your vote away because you can’t vote for a candidate that will do what needs to be done - like secure our borders!
I really hope it doesn’t come down to trump vs clinton because people would vote for hilary so we can “get our first woman president” when she belongs in PRISON.
Trump is not who I want, either. Some of his comments are definitely out there. And I don’t think I could trust him to bring back american manufacturing when his own products are MADE IN CHINA or made in Bangledash…and I definitely don’t trust him on supreme court justices.
$15 an hour is ridiculous, too (thouhg that’s more of a Bernie Sanders than Clinton proposal) Mom&Pop stores can’t afford that. The only jobs worth that much are jobs that require actual hard work like trade jobs (electrician and plumber) and EMTs and Paramedics. McDonalds is not a $15 an hour job.
And do you really want Bill having the run of the white house again?
Yes, we must help the poor as well, but a democrat that wants to raise taxes and give free everything is NOT helping the poor. The working poor will suffer if taxes are raised because that means they would have less take home pay (the more their company has to pay in taxes, the less they can pay their employees and still have a tiny bit of profit to keep them in the black). That hurts the poor. sure, you think you are hurting the “rich” but there are some rich that aren’t the scum of the universe…there are some “rich” that support the poor…and the more taxes they are charged, the less they can help, even with tax deductions for donations.
Plus,its not the government’s job to help the poor - it is OUR duty to help.
Voting third party IS throwing your vote away because you can’t vote for a candidate that will do what needs to be done - like secure our borders!
I really hope it doesn’t come down to trump vs clinton because people would vote for hilary so we can “get our first woman president” when she belongs in PRISON.
Trump is not who I want, either. Some of his comments are definitely out there. And I don’t think I could trust him to bring back american manufacturing when his own products are MADE IN CHINA or made in Bangledash…and I definitely don’t trust him on supreme court justices.
$15 an hour is ridiculous, too (thouhg that’s more of a Bernie Sanders than Clinton proposal) Mom&Pop stores can’t afford that. The only jobs worth that much are jobs that require actual hard work like trade jobs (electrician and plumber) and EMTs and Paramedics. McDonalds is not a $15 an hour job.
And do you really want Bill having the run of the white house again?
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gilliam
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NBC Poll: Clinton Would Trounce Trump But Lose to Rubio, Carson
nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/nbc-poll-clinton-would-trounce-trump-lose-rubio-carson-n478676
nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/nbc-poll-clinton-would-trounce-trump-lose-rubio-carson-n478676
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Darryl_Revok
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If “deliberate destruction of human life” is the most important factor against abortion, then how is it any different from, say, war?
You confuse taxes on businesses and corporations with taxes on individual income. Your understanding of the intricacies of the tax issue is questionable.
But America is a representative democracy, no? If it’s a country of the people, by the people, and for the people, and it is *our *duty to help the poor, then by helping the poor, isn’t government performing a duty of the people?
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AFerri48
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Well yeah, that’s been the case for a while now. Trump always loses the 1v1 matches with Clinton, and Rubio does far better.
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FractalFire
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I agree with everything you said (and probably even the bit about “most important,” mostly because I’m having trouble thinking of an issue that is worse, at least, in our country).
Furthermore, you’ll note I never said it was not the important current moral issue (I didn’t even say it was not the most important). I am merely trying to point out that other moral issues exist that must also be considered. If one side is supporting abortion and the other side Euthanasia, slavery, war, rape, religious genocide, or some other injustice, then we cannot support either side without moral qualms. Its like asking to choose the worst of two evils – there is no good side in such a situation.
Many Democrats, however, do not see the issue quite this way. They are put off by what they see as a callous attitude towards the poor and this allows them to accuse the pro-life of caring for children before they are born, but not after. Efforts must be made to rectify this situation, lest the Pro-life side look like hypocrites. (How we ought to rectify the misunderstanding I leave to you to consider.)
Naturally. Voting third party is typically merely a protest vote. It is not intended to influence the election whether for good or ill, because both candidates are unacceptable to the voter.
Sidenote: I am unimpressed by the Republican position on immigration, actually. I think my views align closer with Marco Rubio’s than they do with Trump or Cruz. I certainly do not like the Democrat’s viewpoint – mostly because they seem merely “pro-immigration” in the same sense that they are “pro-Democrat-voters.” (Long term, it may come back to bite them; Hispanics are typically Catholic and I think naturally more in agreement with the pro-life position.)
People will vote for Hillary because she’s female no matter what. Assuming the Republican candidate is not Fiorna, they will simply have to deal with it.
I trust our judicial system enough to believe it has come to a relatively unbiased conclusion on this matter, actually. Hilary’s protection via her Democratic standing was balanced by the Republican ire. At best, it seems to me that the worst accusation that can be made against her was extreme incompetence (which is bad enough). She did not, however, actually kill anyone or intend their deaths. I think you are allowing your political views to color your perception of this. Justice **must ** be blind to her political standing or it is not just. If you have any information that decisively proves her guilt or murderous intent, I would love to hear it.
Warning! Read Carefully! – The above statement can be easily misinterpreted, if you desire to do so. Note I have not stated she is innocent of all wrongdoing. That is still being decided in a Congressional committee. I have not stated that she did not perform her job incompetently (I haven’t read enough on the issue to come to a conclusion either way as regards to that). Neither have I said that full consideration of this issue might mean she is (through incompetence or failure of duty) not worthy to be President. I merely think that if she really, truly deserved to be in jail, she would most likely be there, short of a cover-up.
Well, we are agreed on that at least. Who do you want, out of curiosity? I’m leaning towards Rubio, though I still need to make a thorough investigation of all the possibilities and run some compare/contrast examinations on the top few options.
Possibly agreed. It seems that raising the minimum wage will do nothing but hurt students and businesses. That being said, there will come a time when we have to raise it because of inflation. (Unless someone has been smart and put in a law stating that the minimum wage will rise in correspondence to the inflation of the dollar, in which case it is probably fine). Minimum wages are important for maintaining good conditions for the disadvantaged. As it is, I am opposed to the change until I am convinced it will not simply hurt people by forcing businesses to cut low-pay jobs and consolidate them into higher pay jobs.
Do you seriously think she will let him in after what he did to her?
In seriousness, though, I am not in the mood for more family dynasties in the white house. It seems a sign of a country whose politics have become increasingly devoted to a few families with political power – a startling sign of an advanced case of societal decay.
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