Trump or Hillary?

[QuidVeritasEst]

I apologize for my stupidity - but are you trying to define yourself as a single issue voter? If the issue is abortion, there have been many Republican Presidents since 1973 when Roe vs Wade was passed. My question would be; how effective have those representatives of “legislated morality” been?

Now, all those that stood out in front of a Planned Parenthood a couple times - don’t write in. Grace to you for your efforts. However, the only change that will be effective is to teach your young folks your moral values. Also, is there any effective Catholic lobbying groups? Or is that an oxymoron?

I’m confused - my personal position is anti-legislative morality, I was simply making the point that being pro-legislative morality was contrary to the individualist US constitution.

I’m not an American, I would never vote for the Republicans if I were. I find them utterly repugnant.

 

[Leo2014]

I’m confused - my personal position is anti-legislative morality, I was simply making the point that being pro-legislative morality was contrary to the individualist US constitution.

I’m not an American, I would never vote for the Republicans if I were. I find them utterly repugnant.

My apology…

For me, it’s not a matter of Republican or Democratic, recent history has indicated that it does not make much difference. I just interrupt “legislative morality” as an effort to create a buzzword that one cannot verify with tangible results.

I just wanted to point out that we have done a lousy job of conveying any type of moral message. The worse thing is to go hide in a corner and decide that you are not going to be part of the democratic process anymore. We dug ourselves into a deep hole and it is not going to be easy to climb out. But blaming “progressives” is not the solution.

What I find repugnant are all the problems that are just accepted as part of the political system.

 

[mlz]

It looks like Ratzinger said exactly the opposite… that abortion and euthanasia
outweigh other issues.
-from the link you posted:

3.** Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.** For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Absolutely!!! We should all be praying.
In His love,
mlz
It’s my understanding that Catholics are not to vote for pro-abortion politicians
unless there is no pro-life person on the ballot. At that point, you can pick the
“lesser of two evils”.

 

[Tony_Micelli]

does it matter?

legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard t

this quote is taken out of context, BXVI is talking about recieving communion, not whether we can vote for a politician who supports “intrinsic evils”.

besides, Pope Francis doesnt support the idea that there are negotiable values, they all are non negotiable. this argument has been used to politicize our faith and dupe catholics into uncritically voting for candidates who pay lip service to social conservatives.

 

[Tbrightson]

Trump.

Could never vote for a party that promotes baby killing, sexual perversity,open borders to the point of letting in terrorists, and boos God during their convention.

 

[zab]

Santorum

 

[Tony_Micelli]

does it matter?this quote is taken out of context, BXVI is talking about recieving communion, not whether we can vote for a politician who supports “intrinsic evils”.

besides, Pope Francis doesnt support the idea that there are negotiable values, they all are non negotiable. this argument has been used to politicize our faith and dupe catholics into uncritically voting for a candidate who pays lip service to social conservatives.

 

[Seamus_L]

To put it as politely as possible. It’s times like these that I can look at two different groups of people who both identify as Catholics, and yet they don’t even seem like they’re the same religion anymore.

 

[zab]

To put it as politely as possible. It’s times like these that I can look at two different groups of people who both identify as Catholics, and yet they don’t even seem like they’re the same religion anymore.

Whom would you be referring too?

 

[josh987654321]

I know the poll in this thread has given people a choice between poor options. However, I am still amazed and deeply saddened that on a Catholic forum, there could be so many people that would selected Hillary Clinton. How could a Catholic (any person really) ever cast a vote for a pro-choice politician who would advance the work of planned parenthood?

*“Every child who, rather than being born, is condemned unjustly to being aborted, bears the face of Jesus Christ, bears the face of the Lord, who even before he was born, and then just after birth, experienced the world’s rejection. And every elderly person…even if he is ill or at the end of his days, bears the face of Christ. They cannot be discarded, as the ‘culture of waste’ suggests!” *

• Pope Francis

“Give us the grace… When the sacredness of life before birth is attacked, to stand up and proclaim that no one ever has the authority to destroy unborn life.”

• St Pope John Paul II

“Any country that accepts abortion, is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what it wants.”

• Mother Teresa

"Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition of all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination . . . "

• St Pope John Paul II

*"You are called to stand up for life!..You are called to work and pray against abortion……….” *

• St Pope John Paul II

Extract from the book My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters:

My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
(Roman Catholic Imprimatur)

Ladies, you who promote abortion or abortions that seek to snatch from the Author and Lord of life His legitimate and sole rights… you who under the slogan that “a woman has the right to decide about her own body”, are concealing the “right” to kill, which will never be a right…

To you I say; please think seriously about what you are doing and get on your knees, pleading for God’s forgiveness and turning your lives around radically, because what awaits you on the other side is so horrible that you cannot even imagine. I say this because the pain you will suffer during your entire lives does not even amount to a thousand part of the pain that you will inflict on your own children while pulling then out of your wombs; and because the pain of a child during the most terrible of abortions will not amount to even a millionth of the eternal suffering to which you are being condemned by your own blindness. My mission on this journey through the earth is only one, to take as many souls as I can to Jesus.

Therefore, as a woman that I am, I am dedicating a few lines to you without the least intention of confronting you with ideas or arguments and without the least intention of hurting any of you. To the contrary, I only want to plead with you to reconsider what you are doing and stop your mad race towards the abyss and that of all those other naïve women whom you “generously help to get out of a problem”. I do not know how much a word of mine, so poor and sinful, can do to reach your hearts. Nor do I know which of you would be reached by these words of mine, but I do not worry about it because I know that the Lord will take care of that… What I do not want is that a sin of omission may befall me the day I find myself before the Throne of God to be judged.

Do not go launching campaigns to destroy the most marvelous thing that the Creator has made with His hands. Contemplate yourselves for five straight minutes in front of a mirror, and think of how much love He must have felt when you were being formed in the wombs of your mothers. So much so that He gave you a soul and intelligence, even if you cannot see one or the other. He gave you strength, courage, health and, perhaps, beauty… Think of how He has formed your hands finger by finger, all perfectly done. And He did it in the hope that you would take in them a rosary, a cross, a flower, a book, a sewing or any other productive tool… But never a murderous knife!

[Ladies] Please wake up! Look towards the light and flee from the darkness! May the blood of the innocent ones, which runs like a river, not wake you up in the middle of the night to drown you in nightmares… Friend, come down from your own altar. Please look; look in front of you. Jesus is on the opposite shore, stretching out His hand for you to take a leap and grab hold of it tightly. Please do not fear, and forgive those who may have hurt you so much… All of us make mistakes, and not just once but thousands of times, yet what is big and wonderful, what is courageous, is to acknowledge them and turn back from the mistaken road in order to take the correct one. Clarity will never come from the hand of those who murder! Flee from them! For even if they convince you of the contrary with their alleged help, they are only going to destroy you.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Leo2014]

To put it as politely as possible. It’s times like these that I can look at two different groups of people who both identify as Catholics, and yet they don’t even seem like they’re the same religion anymore.

You need to make your voice heard!

I cannot say it enough; we do a lousy job of propagating our message and now we want to blame everyone but ourselves…we need less apathy.

 

[phil19034]

based on the current results (as of 147 voters), Hillary would win.

56 votes were directed to Trump while 91 votes are either for Hillary, not voting, or voting for a third candidate.

I hope everyone will understand that EVERYBODY, whether you vote or not votes in the United States. Everyone votes for either the Republican nominee or the Democratic nominee.

Every third party vote, write in vote, non-vote, etc is a vote for the Democratic nominee.

If you believe that Hillary is the least immoral option but refuse to vote for her, then that’s the only way not voting is good. However, if you feel that both are immoral and that Trump is the least immoral option then you must vote for Trump.

Again, any vote (or non-vote) that is not for the Republican Nominee works as a vote for the Democratic Nominee.

NOTE: there are statistics that support this fact, which is essentially based on the fact that there are more registered Democrats than Republicans.

God Bless

 

[pnewton]

Every third party vote, write in vote, non-vote, etc is a vote for the Democratic nominee.

Again, this is both a mathematical and logic error. The math error is obvious. The logic error is the unsubstantiated assumption that all who vote third party or abstain would vote for Donald Trump. Would you rather that all these who abstained from voting because of the choices vote for Hillary? You might be surprised how many would do this.

Speaking for myself, I really do not know what I would do in this worse case situation, but I know I will not vote for Donald Trump. Therefore, how would any decision I make to abstain of vote third party be a vote for Hillary?

For me, a third party vote would be for the Republicans in America to stop nominating such extreme, distasteful candidates. This is an issue to consider once the real voting starts. Is making a nationalistic statement with such a man as Trump worth Hillary being president? That is the most probable outcome. I am hopeful as the field narrows commons sense will prevail.

I would see such an election as one in which Satan held both cards; Mammon in one hand and Molech in the other.

 

[FractalFire]

based on the current results (as of 147 voters), Hillary would win.

56 votes were directed to Trump while 91 votes are either for Hillary, not voting, or voting for a third candidate.

An accurate assessment and also what I was trying to find out when this was posted.

I hope everyone will understand that EVERYBODY, whether you vote or not votes in the United States. Everyone votes for either the Republican nominee or the Democratic nominee.

Every third party vote, write in vote, non-vote, etc is a vote for the Democratic nominee.

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true, as simple logic can say. You are assuming that all those who voted for a third party would *normally *vote for a conservative candidate. While this is a valid inference given the conservative readership of this forum, you failed to take into account that this is not because of the third vote, but rather because of the loss of a large segment of the Republican voters. If 1/4 of all Democrats voted for a third party, Hillary would probably lose. Similarly, if 1/4 of each party voted for a third party, little would change statistically. What matters is not the third vote – it’s where those votes for the third candidate are coming from.

Yes, the loss of Republican voters will cost Republicans the election if Trump is nominated, but even if all Republicans voted for him, he would still likely lose the independent vote (which Republicans desperately need to win, because of the voter gap you point out at the end of this post). Trump is simply a no-win scenario. You want to win the election? Don’t nominate Trump.

If you believe that Hillary is the least immoral option but refuse to vote for her, then that’s the only way not voting is good. However, if you feel that both are immoral and that Trump is the least immoral option then you must vote for Trump.

By definition, we ought to vote for the least evil candidate. However, if both candidates are sufficiently evil, voters are justified in not voting for either. (Indeed, some might argue obliged to not vote for either candidate.)

Again, any vote (or non-vote) that is not for the Republican Nominee works as a vote for the Democratic Nominee.

NOTE: there are statistics that support this fact, which is essentially based on the fact that there are more registered Democrats than Republicans.

God Bless

In conclusion, if the Republicans want victory, the only solution is clear – they cannot vote for Trump. He will be slaughtered by the Republican constituency, even if he wins the nomination. As usual, the Primaries are the main even and a vote for Trump there is one step closer to guaranteeing Hillary the White House.

 

[Seamus_L]

Trump or Hillary ? 60 years ago only one would be considered a dangerous extremist, and no one would be asking can I as a Catholic, vote for the other one. I leave it to posters to figure out which one is which.

 

[AFerri48]

Marco Rubio needs to win the nomination as he is by far the most electable from my perspective. The guy has great composure, knows how to handle verbal attacks, is very clear when he speaks, and is very firm on his policies. Plus, he gave the best pro-life speech I have ever heard by a politician, and I will post the video because it’s just that good.

youtube.com/watch?v=xqUNZ-qwBsA

 

[FractalFire]

Marco Rubio needs to win the nomination as he is by far the most electable from my perspective. The guy has great composure, knows how to handle verbal attacks, is very clear when he speaks, and is very firm on his policies. Plus, he gave the best pro-life speech I have ever heard by a politician, and I will post the video because it’s just that good.

youtube.com/watch?v=xqUNZ-qwBsA

After consideration I agree.

To be fair, however, he does have a few weaknesses, though, that must be taken into account:

A) He’s centrist, which angers some of the (very far) right
B) His immigration policy might cost him big time with Republicans.
C) So far, he is behind Trump and Cruz. Not a good sign.
D)Easily attackable absences from congress.
E) Some alleged skeletons in the closet. So far they seem to be all rumors, but if anything turns out to be substantial, we may as well slather him with jam and butter now, because he’s toast.

I think if he wins the nomination, all or most of these problems with the Republicans will go away (most would rather vote for him than Hillary, just like the Bernie supporters will ultimately gather behind Hillary if she wins). Assuming he can defend himself well from savage attacks while dealing solid counter-punches, he has a fair shot in my estimation (better than most others).

Thanks for the video, I will take a look.

 

[josh987654321]

Marco Rubio needs to win the nomination as he is by far the most electable from my perspective. The guy has great composure, knows how to handle verbal attacks, is very clear when he speaks, and is very firm on his policies. Plus, he gave the best pro-life speech I have ever heard by a politician, and I will post the video because it’s just that good.

youtube.com/watch?v=xqUNZ-qwBsA

Just wanted to say thank you for sharing that. I completely agree with him and I think he said it well.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[powerofk]

After consideration I agree.

To be fair, however, he does have a few weaknesses, though, that must be taken into account:

A) He’s centrist, which angers some of the (very far) right
B) His immigration policy might cost him big time with Republicans.
C) So far, he is behind Trump and Cruz. Not a good sign.
D)Easily attackable absences from congress.
E) Some alleged skeletons in the closet. So far they seem to be all rumors, but if anything turns out to be substantial, we may as well slather him with jam and butter now, because he’s toast.

I think if he wins the nomination, all or most of these problems with the Republicans will go away (most would rather vote for him than Hillary, just like the Bernie supporters will ultimately gather behind Hillary if she wins). Assuming he can defend himself well from savage attacks while dealing solid counter-punches, he has a fair shot in my estimation (better than most others).

Thanks for the video, I will take a look.

I’ve always thought Rubio would make the most sense for the GOP - and he’s the most likable from an independent voter standpoint.

As for your possible trip-ups:

(A) He’s only centrist from a GOP view (he’s actually pretty much firmly in the center of the GOP)

(B) True. But if he can get the nomination, his immigration plan is very palatable to independents - much more so than Trump’s “Let’s round them all up, no matter the cost, build a wall, and make Mexico pay for it!”

(C) True. But I’m thinking most of the non-Trump, non-Cruz vote will end up with Rubio eventually. And if Rubio steps up his game in IA in January, he could quite possibly pass Trump in IA. If Trump somehow ends up not winning IA, he’s going to be seriously wounded.

(D) Right - just like John Kerry’s absenteeism cost him against Dubya in 2004. But we’ll see.

(E) There’s no way Rubio has more skeletons in his closet than Hillary. The biggest attack on him so far with regard to impropriety was his use of the Republican Party of FL American Express card for personal expenses. Supposedly, he paid everything that was charged for personal expenses in full - though, of course, that’s hard to prove either way. Compare that to Hillary’s continuous improprieties - starting with Whitewater as First Lady of AR and ending with the attempted coverup of terrorist activity in Benghazi and her e-mail server issue. Seriously, it’s never good being under FBI investigation, and the Justice Dept. (which is supposed to be non-partisan, though the AGs have become more and more partisan under the last 2 Presidents) could very decide to try to indict Hillary if there’s enough public outcry.

 

[phil19034]

Again, this is both a mathematical and logic error. The math error is obvious. The logic error is the unsubstantiated assumption that all who vote third party or abstain would vote for Donald Trump. Would you rather that all these who abstained from voting because of the choices vote for Hillary? You might be surprised how many would do this.

Speaking for myself, I really do not know what I would do in this worse case situation, but I know I will not vote for Donald Trump. Therefore, how would any decision I make to abstain of vote third party be a vote for Hillary?

For me, a third party vote would be for the Republicans in America to stop nominating such extreme, distasteful candidates. This is an issue to consider once the real voting starts. Is making a nationalistic statement with such a man as Trump worth Hillary being president? That is the most probable outcome. I am hopeful as the field narrows commons sense will prevail.

I would see such an election as one in which Satan held both cards; Mammon in one hand and Molech in the other.

You are missing my point. Yes, low voter turn out helps the Republicans. But third party votes helps the democrats. In regards to the no-vote, I was referring to conservative voters not voting, not liberal voters not voting.

For a Republican to win the White House, conservative voters have to come out the polls and vote for the Republican nominee. When, conservative voters do not vote or vote third party, it helps the Democratic nominee.

My comments are assuming orthodox, conservative voters not voting for Trump.

NOTE: If we don’t want Trump, then we must vote in full force against him during the primary.

While I personally would rather see one of the other Republican candidates sitting in the Oval Office, I would rather have Trump over Hillary (and Trump is my last choice in the Republican primary).