Trump or Hillary?

[Ridgerunner]

That’s my thought on this too. Hillary has been caught lying more often than anyone I’ve ever known. And yet she still gets a pass. Why? I mean her lies are big. And she tells them with confidence. Maybe with the confidence that she’ll keep getting away with them?

We’ll just have to see how the Repubs confront all of this. Hillary’s “superpac”; the mainstream media, would cover her for anything she ever does (unless she stops supporting abortion…then they would attack her).

 

[Crossbones]

Bush was far more Catholic than Kerry. Remember, Kerry voted for the Iraq War Phase II as well. As to the accusation of “torture” of three people, (yes, three who underwent waterboarding) nobody has yet come up with a working definition of “torture” I have ever seen that doesn’t just end up labeling everything from handcuffs to interrogation “torture”. The Church doesn’t define waterboarding as “torture”?And Bush spent millions fighting AIDS in Africa. Did Obama? No sir. Did Kerry? No. Did Bush try to force the Little Sisters of the Poor to pay for abortifacients? No. Did Obama? Yes. Did Bush disqualify Catholic charities from funds to aid human trafficking victims because they wouldn’t refer women for abortions? No. Did Obama? Yes.

Bush was more of a Catholic than all of the “Catholic” Dems in Congress and in this administration put together.

It’s funny how torture makes the US Bishop’s Forming Conscience for Faithful Citizenship now. I wonder why. It seems like you are making excuses for not allowing yourself to see the truth: waterboarding is torture and we are all worse off for President GW Bush reopening that can of worms.

As far as the Iraq War goes, I’ve said that Democrats in Congress that supported it are as culpable as Republicans. Of course, the Democrats running for President at least seem to admit it was a mistake, but only Senator Paul and Mr. Trump on the Republican side seem to feel the same way.

“…A minor case”??? Partial birth abortion is MINOR? Do you not know what it is?Roberts and Alito both voted in favor of partial birth abortion bans. So did Scalia, Thomas and even Kennedy. That’s 100% of the Repub appointees. Every last Dem voted in favor of partial birth abortion. And every future Dem appointee will too, because that’s all the party stands for now; well we can add homosexual marriage too. Kennedy did go along with that, but no other Repub appointee did. Every Dem appointee favored homosexual marriage. Every one.

Back to partial birth abortion. I’m sure you’re aware that its preventing the full birth of a viable baby, sticking a sharp instrument into its skull and destroying its brain so it dies. If preventing that is minor, then there’s no such thing as “major”. Even Kennedy couldn’t stomach it. And yet, the Dem appointees all supported it without exception. If that isn’t an evil that cries to heaven, I don’t know what one is.

Minor in the sense of rare. Yes, it should be banned, but it’s not like it moved the needle of abortions much. You could easily argue that a stronger social safety net reduces abortions more than the partial birth abortion ban.

As to the Iraq war, and I realize there is a lot of division concerning that, if you look very carefully at the Church’s teaching on “Just war”, it doesn’t require that one’s own country be attacked or its people decimated. It simply requires that the evil to be opposed is grave. It can also be an evil imposed on others than one’s own countrymen. After a million people killed by Saddam, how many more would anybody require to call its continuation “gravely evil”. Never mind that Saddam broke the truce by shooting at American and British planes. And never mind that Saddam paid parents to send their (often impaired, therefore expendable) children to commit suicide by bomb in order to kill innocent Israelis.

Here’s a quote from the USCCB:

“This letter, which was authorized by the U.S. Bishops’ Administrative Committee, raised serious questions about the moral legitimacy of any preemptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq.”

I don’t really see how anyone can look at the Church’s teaching on Just War and come to the conclusion that the Iraq War was a just war based on comments like that.

Back to Hillary and Trump. I’m not a Trump supporter. And my opposition to Hillary Clinton is not only her absolutely total dedication to abortion. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is the most corrupt candidate ever fielded by a political party. She has sold influence to some of the world’s worst people, including the sale of American uranium to Russia, which Russia is now going to deliver to Iran. She should never survive that, politically if people have half a brain. If she sells her country out as Secretary of State, how much more could she do it as president? What will she do when the “value” of Bill Clinton’s bogus “speaking fees” go to $10 million; to $20 million in exchange for, e.g., attacking country “A” or stopping oil production here in order to benefit country “B”? What’s her price for granting offshore drilling rights to China? What’s her price for destroying whole industries in this country? She’ll sell her country out time and again, and no one should doubt that.

I don’t like Secretary Clinton for many reasons, including her support of abortion and her support of the Iraq War. It’s funny though on how some on the right decide every Democratic Presidential nominee is somehow the worst of all time. She’s the most corrupt? Ok, I guess that’ll be the new FoxNews theme. Of course, I’m looking forward to them choking over themselves when they support Mr. Trump, because he can’t stand their guts and has no use for them.

 

[Peter_J]

New bumper sticker:

No Bush. No Clinton. No Trump.

 

[Peter_J]

I didn’t find Mitt Romney’s pro life conversion sincere but I’m used to abstaining from presidential voting.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

• Edmund Burke

 

[Peter_J]

And who here thinks Canada is part of the US?

I think you mean North Montana.

 

[St_Pancake]

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

• Edmund Burke

Voting for bad isn’t an answer. If the rest of you demanded a decent candidate, we would get one. Instead, you call it evil to refuse to vote for garbage while your vote keeps getting us garbage. Which is really evil?

 

[St_Pancake]

It’s funny how torture makes the US Bishop’s Forming Conscience for Faithful Citizenship now. I wonder why. It seems like you are making excuses for not allowing yourself to see the truth: waterboarding is torture and we are all worse off for President GW Bush reopening that can of worms.

As far as the Iraq War goes, I’ve said that Democrats in Congress that supported it are as culpable as Republicans. Of course, the Democrats running for President at least seem to admit it was a mistake, but only Senator Paul and Mr. Trump on the Republican side seem to feel the same way.

Minor in the sense of rare. Yes, it should be banned, but it’s not like it moved the needle of abortions much. You could easily argue that a stronger social safety net reduces abortions more than the partial birth abortion ban.

Here’s a quote from the USCCB:

“This letter, which was authorized by the U.S. Bishops’ Administrative Committee, raised serious questions about the moral legitimacy of any preemptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq.”

I don’t really see how anyone can look at the Church’s teaching on Just War and come to the conclusion that the Iraq War was a just war based on comments like that.

I don’t like Secretary Clinton for many reasons, including her support of abortion and her support of the Iraq War. It’s funny though on how some on the right decide every Democratic Presidential nominee is somehow the worst of all time. She’s the most corrupt? Ok, I guess that’ll be the new FoxNews theme. Of course, I’m looking forward to them choking over themselves when they support Mr. Trump, because he can’t stand their guts and has no use for them.

Going into Iraq was a serious blunder for the United States and I’m shocked a republican administration didn’t know better. Historically, Arab and Islamic states are best controlled with strong Islamic leadership. That’s what we’ve supported all over the mideast in Iran, prior to the Shah being run out and we also supported it in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Libya. While the Iraqi leadership was cruel and troublesome, they did keep control and it has been chaos since they were removed. The same goes for Egypt and Libya and Iran though the US had nothing to do with those or at least a more minor role.

I’m far from proud of the US supporting torture and those will one day have to answer for that. It was a bad decision.

Even given all of the above, the democrat party support of baby murder cannot be overlooked. There are approximately 1,200,000 abortions in the United States every year and it is one of the bad policies our government exports. In the world, there are 40,000,000+ abortions per year. Stupidity in Iraq and other republican blunders seem minor when compared to this.

 

[Peter_J]

If the Republicans want to win Catholic voters, they need to act more Catholic.

A question: if you were to become a politician (I’m making no claim as to how likely or unlikely that is, that isn’t relevant) would you act Protestant to win Protestant voters?

 

[Crossbones]

A question: if you were to become a politician (I’m making no claim as to how likely or unlikely that is, that isn’t relevant) would you act Protestant to win Protestant voters?

Protestants aren’t uniform at all. So, I would stick with Catholic values knowing that they would appeal to a good percentage of Protestant voters.

Of course, as such, neither party would have me.

 

[tweedlealice]

I don’t trust Trump, either. But I wouldn’t vote for Hillary if someone was holding a gun to my head, or Bernie Sanders, or Mark O Malley, either.
I don’t know what Trump’s real stand is on abortion. Is he pro-life?
And I’m afraid he’ll go third party if he starts to slip in the polls or gets on the outs with the RNC-which may not be a stretch.
I really hope those aren’t our choices. Trump is the last Republican I want to vote for.

I may vote for him if he stays Republican and is the nominee and I could be assured he’s pro-life.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s funny how torture makes the US Bishop’s Forming Conscience for Faithful Citizenship now. I wonder why. It seems like you are making excuses for not allowing yourself to see the truth: waterboarding is torture and we are all worse off for President GW Bush reopening that can of worms.

As far as the Iraq War goes, I’ve said that Democrats in Congress that supported it are as culpable as Republicans. Of course, the Democrats running for President at least seem to admit it was a mistake, but only Senator Paul and Mr. Trump on the Republican side seem to feel the same way.

Minor in the sense of rare. Yes, it should be banned, but it’s not like it moved the needle of abortions much. You could easily argue that a stronger social safety net reduces abortions more than the partial birth abortion ban.

Here’s a quote from the USCCB:

“This letter, which was authorized by the U.S. Bishops’ Administrative Committee, raised serious questions about the moral legitimacy of any preemptive, unilateral use of military force to overthrow the government of Iraq.”

I don’t really see how anyone can look at the Church’s teaching on Just War and come to the conclusion that the Iraq War was a just war based on comments like that.

I don’t like Secretary Clinton for many reasons, including her support of abortion and her support of the Iraq War. It’s funny though on how some on the right decide every Democratic Presidential nominee is somehow the worst of all time. She’s the most corrupt? Ok, I guess that’ll be the new FoxNews theme. Of course, I’m looking forward to them choking over themselves when they support Mr. Trump, because he can’t stand their guts and has no use for them.

Even the USCCB hasn’t said waterboarding is torture. Different topic of course, but all arguments about what “torture” is (beyond the obvious things like burning, flaying, etc) always end up so over-inclusive that simply detaining someone falls within most peoples’ poorly thought out definitions of “torture”.

One or two USCCB functionaries do not equal the Church. The Church teaches that Just War is largely to be determined by legitimate political authority, based on the facts that are known or reasonably believed. But the real doctrine of Just War would certainly justify Iraq Phase II. The only way to know that is to analyze it point by point, not to quote some bishop or other who has USCCB stationery. I would be happy to debate that with you or anyone else in a thread in which it is the topic. But it isn’t in this one.

Removing horrors that no society should tolerate is not a “minor” matter, regardless of the numbers. How many children did Cathaginians burn to death annually as human sacrifice? We don’t know. But if it was even one, it was no “minor” matter. Interesting that the Romans, in the Third Punic War were so outraged when they saw it that even their own commanders couldn’t stop them from slaughtering a populace so corrupted that it would do such a thing. Seems the pagan Romans’ morals (which left much to be desired in many ways) surpassed those of today’s Democrat Party and certainly of every last Democrat appointee to the Supreme Court.

That’s why I’m no longer a Democrat. One can’t be a devoted Democrat and a devoted Catholic at the same time.

I agree the Iraq War was a mistake, taken as a whole. Not the war itself, but abandoning the people there when they begged us, with good reason, to stay longer.

MERRY CHRISTMAS! I’m out of here.

 

[Crossbones]

Even the USCCB hasn’t said waterboarding is torture. Different topic of course, but all arguments about what “torture” is (beyond the obvious things like burning, flaying, etc) always end up so over-inclusive that simply detaining someone falls within most peoples’ poorly thought out definitions of “torture”.

I think there is a vast difference between waterboarding and detaining someone. I don’t understand why a Catholic or a patriot would defend this. It is both un-Christian and un-American.

One or two USCCB functionaries do not equal the Church. The Church teaches that Just War is largely to be determined by legitimate political authority, based on the facts that are known or reasonably believed. But the real doctrine of Just War would certainly justify Iraq Phase II. The only way to know that is to analyze it point by point, not to quote some bishop or other who has USCCB stationery. I would be happy to debate that with you or anyone else in a thread in which it is the topic. But it isn’t in this one.

Seriously, quoting bishops who have teaching authority shouldn’t be done. Wow. I’ll keep that in mind when someone pulls out Archbishop Chaput’s mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics.

It wasn’t just and I have never seen anyone in teaching authority in the Church say it was.

Removing horrors that no society should tolerate is not a “minor” matter, regardless of the numbers. How many children did Cathaginians burn to death annually as human sacrifice? We don’t know. But if it was even one, it was no “minor” matter. Interesting that the Romans, in the Third Punic War were so outraged when they saw it that even their own commanders couldn’t stop them from slaughtering a populace so corrupted that it would do such a thing. Seems the pagan Romans’ morals (which left much to be desired in many ways) surpassed those of today’s Democrat Party and certainly of every last Democrat appointee to the Supreme Court.

A touch off topic here. How many children did the Carthaginians burn? What?

That’s why I’m no longer a Democrat. One can’t be a devoted Democrat and a devoted Catholic at the same time.

I don’t see how anyone can be in either major party, but that’s me. I guess if one doesn’t understand teachings on just wars and torture, then you can be a Republican though.

I agree the Iraq War was a mistake, taken as a whole. Not the war itself, but abandoning the people there when they begged us, with good reason, to stay longer.

Half-way there. The whole war was a mistake.

MERRY CHRISTMAS! I’m out of here.

Have a great Christmas!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think there is a vast difference between waterboarding and detaining someone. I don’t understand why a Catholic or a patriot would defend this. It is both un-Christian and un-American.

Seriously, quoting bishops who have teaching authority shouldn’t be done. Wow. I’ll keep that in mind when someone pulls out Archbishop Chaput’s mental gymnastics worthy of the Olympics.

Define torture for us then, in a way that includes waterboarding but excludes arrest, interrogation, imprisonment and human suffering in war. Everybody has his own subjective yardstick for “torture”. State what you think is a universally applicable rule so we can see what yours is.

As to waterboarding, I exclude it because I do not consider any non-lethal, non-maiming thing people voluntarily undergo for reasonable objectives to be “torture”, and particularly not when they could stop it at any time. Manifestly, thousands of people have undergone it voluntarily for reasons of training and even just to know what it’s like or be able to say they did.

The very fact that you can choose to listen to some USCCB functionary and I choose to listen to Abp Chaput demonstrates our freedom to do it. Pronouncements of one or two USCCB bishops (and it’s almost always just one or two) are not binding in conscience.

 

[Darryl1958]

It would be a good thing to have a set of rules for enhanced interrogation practices that would serve as guidelines, more so for Catholics even than for any individual country.

I thnk that Ridgerunner’s post is a useful start to what those guidelines might look at.

Medeival thumbscrews and rack would be wrong, because they would involve maiming. That certainly would be a start, and a Catholic statement of repentance as well from wrong paths that we have collectively taken as an eternal church that includes all past and future members.

Certainly too, the practice of outsourcing captured terrorist soldiers to third parties who do use maiming and.or lethal practices ought to be something seen as morally repugnant too.

Keep in mind too, in any discussion of delimitation between torture and interrogation that the lives of hundred or thousands could potentially lie in the balance. The purpose of such interrogation is not to extract confessions of innocence or guilt, but to thwart imminent attack. As a religion based in the ethic of ancient Judaism, the Talmudic principle of “those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind” could legitimately play a role for Catholics. There is nothing moral about sacrificing a whole city to a biological warfare attack for the sake of a sparing a bruise. There are real world consequences to failing to gather information.

These seem to be ta few of the worthwhile guiding principles thus far. Enhanced interrogation is for the purpose of gathering crucial intelligence, and not for the purpose of extracting confessions of guilt. Permanent maiming and lethal methods are a bridge too far.

We could go further and try to discern if there are non-lethal, non-maiming methods of interrogation that ought to disturb modern, Catholic sensibilities. I think most people for example, would agree that rape, or electrical shock to a man’s genitals are also examples of barbaric, immoral methods of interrogation.

How about other humiliating methods though? Would embarrassing a man by making him wear a dress count as torture? More to the point, would it even be effective?

And in the remote possibility that some useful intelligence may be gather through such a method, is this something that the Church should condemn outright as an immoral, tortuous method?

In a lot of ways, the current Democratic administration has deferred the discussion on what constitutes torture and what doesn’t with its ‘take no prisoners’ methods of battling terrorism.

Dead men don’t talk, and drones aim to kill rather than torture. Would the Church agree then, that killing outright is the morally preferable option to capturing and then waterboarding a select few captive terrorist leaders who may have critical and timely information?

I guess in terms of this thread, Hillary’s answer is clear enough. ‘I came, I saw, Qaddafi died’ belies a response of extreme black humor given the lethal torture that the dictator was killed with, albeit by an ‘outsourced’ third party.

Trump is enough of an outsider to the Republican party that his own position is less than clear on torture. Didn’t he say something at one time though about killing their family members as a response to the terrorists?

This kind of reminds me of things that Saddam Hussein did, such as raping a man’s wife in front of him, or shearing off his child’s fingers with wire cutters, in order to ensure that the man acquiesces.

If Hillary or Trump is the best that may be hoped for in this election cycle, on the topic of torture at least, the best case scenario is that America’s influence in the world drop even further than it already has under Obama’s feckless rule.

 

[Crossbones]

Define torture for us then, in a way that includes waterboarding but excludes arrest, interrogation, imprisonment and human suffering in war. Everybody has his own subjective yardstick for “torture”. State what you think is a universally applicable rule so we can see what yours is.

As to waterboarding, I exclude it because I do not consider any non-lethal, non-maiming thing people voluntarily undergo for reasonable objectives to be “torture”, and particularly not when they could stop it at any time. Manifestly, thousands of people have undergone it voluntarily for reasons of training and even just to know what it’s like or be able to say they did.

The very fact that you can choose to listen to some USCCB functionary and I choose to listen to Abp Chaput demonstrates our freedom to do it. Pronouncements of one or two USCCB bishops (and it’s almost always just one or two) are not binding in conscience.

Did Archbishop Chaput say the Iraq War was good and waterboarding isn’t torture? I never know that. Can you provide a source?

 

[DeniseNY]

So, did Clinton just admit that Obamacare hurts workers?

The war room at the Republican National Committee found this interesting exchange between Hillary Clinton and a voter at a campaign event in Iowa City on December 16, where the former first lady seems to admit that Obamacare is partially to blame for creating scores of part-time employees. In other words, President Obama’s signature domestic achievement is hurting businesses and workers

hotair.com/archives/2015/12/27/so-did-clinton-just-admit-that-obamacare-hurts-workers/

 

[Crossbones]

So, did Clinton just admit that Obamacare hurts workers?

hotair.com/archives/2015/12/27/so-did-clinton-just-admit-that-obamacare-hurts-workers/

Would have been better off with a single payer system.

 

[tvknight415]

Well, given those choices, I think I’d have to write in “Michael J Mouse-his friends call him Mickey” and put a “Cthulhu for President 2016: Why Settle For a Lesser Evil” bumper sticker on my car.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Did Archbishop Chaput say the Iraq War was good and waterboarding isn’t torture? I never know that. Can you provide a source?

I never said he did. You’re the one who brought him into the discussion, not me.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Would have been better off with a single payer system.

“Single payer systems” are always two-tier systems, not really “single payer”. The low-end system is “Medicaid with deductibles” and the one for the more prosperous is the one with the best care.