Trump or Hillary?

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Now we have this:

insideedition.com/headlines/15177-trump-supporter-who-punched-protester-next-time-we-might-have-to-kill-him

Protester punched:

Trump
Mr. Trump stirs up anger and incites these emotions then disavows the results. Is it really unreasonable to imagine our own night of long knives in a Trump led country?
Trump says he’d like to punch protesters in the face and his followers start to punch people in the face. Then Trump denies inciting violence :rolleyes:. I’m really shocked that people are taken in by this guy. Look at the faces of the people at the rally when he says that people used to be taken out on stretchers in the old days. Look at the laughs and smiles. It’s disgusting.

There was another one by the way. The brazenness of these guys is mind boggling. You can see his hateful face before he slaps the kid.

rawstory.com/2016/03/second-white-on-black-assault-caught-on-video-from-horrifying-trump-rally-in-north-carolina/
 
A teacher is not the leader of a country.

On a local level, yes, one should be concerned about that teacher,
There are big differences, though.

The teacher was clearly calling for physical force to be used against the student; not in theory, not as a joke, but in immediate reality.

There is no real evidence that Trump intended for anyone to commit assault at any of his rallies. Since such things can certainly be counterproductive to one’s candidacy, it’s difficult to believe.

Calling Trump a Nazi based on an outcome perpetrated by another depends on Trump’s intent to cause such a result.

The teacher intended the result she called for, and said so.
Did Trump? How do you know he did?
 
Trump says he’d like to punch protesters in the face and his followers start to punch people in the face. Then Trump denies inciting violence :rolleyes:. I’m really shocked that people are taken in by this guy. Look at the faces of the people at the rally when he says that people used to be taken out on stretchers in the old days. Look at the laughs and smiles. It’s disgusting.

There was another one by the way. The brazenness of these guys is mind boggling. You can see his hateful face before he slaps the kid.

rawstory.com/2016/03/second-white-on-black-assault-caught-on-video-from-horrifying-trump-rally-in-north-carolina/
from the above article…
On Wednesday, cell phone video captured another Trump supporter, John McGraw, 78, sucker-punching Rakeem Jones, an African-American man who says he was also called racial slurs. Inside Edition caught video of McGraw after the incident threatening Jones.
“He deserved it,” McGraw said. “The next time we see him, we might have to kill him. We don’t know who he is. He might be with a terrorist organization.”
 
The teacher intended the result she called for, and said so.
Did Trump? How do you know he did?
It’s pretty obvious that Trump uses inflammatory rhetoric to whip up support.

It’s called demagoguery. It’s not a new concept. The Nazis didn’t invent it they were just one of many political forces to use it. Pray tell me the USA won’t go down that road…
 
Calling Trump a Nazi based on an outcome perpetrated by another depends on Trump’s intent to cause such a result.
He should not be called a Nazi just because of some common evils. That would be wrong. The problem is the excessive use of rhetoric to ramp up the marginalization and dehumanization of a segment of the population, be it illegal immigrants, Muslims or liberals. Violence cannot only be incited, but tolerated, once enough of the population is angry at this segment, and the person in power is the one driving that anger. This is not exclusive to the Nazis. The blacks in the antebellum South faced the same violence, as have various minority groups through history (Chinese, Irish, etc.)
 
It’s pretty obvious that Trump uses inflammatory rhetoric to whip up support.

It’s called demagoguery. It’s not a new concept. The Nazis didn’t invent it they were just one of many political forces to use it. Pray tell me the USA won’t go down that road…
Virtually every politician appeals to emotion. It’s a way to avoid providing solutions while getting people engaged.

But it’s really out of line to suggest that American presidential contenders are Nazi-level in the practice of it, or that the actions of some crazy person are the intended result of it.
 
Now we have this:

insideedition.com/headlines/15177-trump-supporter-who-punched-protester-next-time-we-might-have-to-kill-him

Protester punched:

Trump
Mr. Trump stirs up anger and incites these emotions then disavows the results. Is it really unreasonable to imagine our own night of long knives in a Trump led country?
Let’s not pull these things too long.

Should we, then, worry about a “night of the long knives” on the campus of the University of Missouri where a leftist teacher called for “some muscle” to oust a student journalist from the protesters’ claimed “safe space” on a public campus?
And how is a “leftist teacher” in any way comparable to a man running for the highest office of the nation described as “the most powerful on Earth”?
I would like to add a question in here as well: Why is it so easy to stray from the topic?

Someone might be thinking “Because the Trump supporters push it off topic”. I think that’s half of the answer, but only half. And not even the more important half. :o
 
He should not be called a Nazi just because of some common evils. That would be wrong. The problem is the excessive use of rhetoric to ramp up the marginalization and dehumanization of a segment of the population, be it illegal immigrants, Muslims or liberals.
Agreed. I would say we should not even debate whether to call him a “Nazi” or not.

There was a comment the other day like “Trump isn’t going to start a Fourth Reich.” I thought about responding (and probably should have!!) with a sarcastic “Oh well that does it for me, he’s getting my vote!”
 
He should not be called a Nazi just because of some common evils. That would be wrong. The problem is the excessive use of rhetoric to ramp up the marginalization and dehumanization of a segment of the population, be it illegal immigrants, Muslims or liberals. Violence cannot only be incited, but tolerated, once enough of the population is angry at this segment, and the person in power is the one driving that anger. This is not exclusive to the Nazis. The blacks in the antebellum South faced the same violence, as have various minority groups through history (Chinese, Irish, etc.)
It really is lamentable that the political left has, stitch by stitch, sewn the mouths shut of a people that was once known for its outspokenness and plain-spokenness. It truly is.

Trump didn’t make Americans angry with the Muslim world; 911 and subsequent events did that. Sons and daughters coming back dead or maimed from their world did that. Beheadings on film and roastings in iron cages did that.

And should Americans not be angered at such things? I say we’re a pretty blasé lot if we’re not.

Nor did he invent the idea of secure borders. Even Obama claims to have secured the borders even though he hasn’t. Why does Obama claim that? Precisely because he knows uncontrolled immigration is harmful and he knows we know it too. And when we realize we are being lied to, do we have no right to be angry about it?

Why can’t people have emotional reactions? And why not politicians? Harry Truman, after all, offered to punch a music critic in the face himself for panning his daughter’s piano performance. Undoubtedly a few thought it boorish of him, but most people actually admired him for expressing genuine feelings. There were plenty enough phonies back then too, who could get the vapors over things like that.

Shifting for a second, one wonders how some people picture slavery in the old south. Do some really think there were anti-black riots going on all the time? As cruel as slavery often was, it was just a commonplace then, not much of an issue for anybody where it prevailed. It wasn’t like, say, the holocaust.
 
But it’s really out of line to suggest that American presidential contenders are Nazi-level in the practice of it, or that the actions of some crazy person are the intended result of it.
Never said it was “Nazi-level”. But demagoguery is demagoguery at any level.

The problem with Trump is not appeals to emotion; all politicians do that to a certain extent.

Demagoguery is:

“A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.”

This, he does in spades and in particular he targets specific minorities in the population and incites fear of them. It inflames passions and can incite others to violence and hatred.

A democracy is not measured by how well it corresponds to the wishes of the majority. That can descend into the “tyranny of the majority” and that is what Trump is playing on.

A democracy is properly measured by how the rights of the minorities are protected. Kicking minorities out of the country because of their religion is the very antithesis of what the USA is supposed to stand for. The US is fighting wars in other countries to for those rights, for heaven’s sake!!!
It really is lamentable that the political left has, stitch by stitch, sewn the mouths shut of a people that was once known for its outspokenness and plain-spokenness. It truly is.

Trump didn’t make Americans angry with the Muslim world; 911 and subsequent events did that. Sons and daughters coming back dead or maimed from their world did that. Beheadings on film and roastings in iron cages did that.

And should Americans not be angered at such things? I say we’re a pretty blasé lot if we’re not.
Anger at 911 is fully understandable. Extending that anger to an entire group for the actions of terrorist elements within that group is something else altogether and the decent thing to do is defuse that anger, not play on it. Even GW Bush was careful to admonish Americans to not take it out on Muslims in the country.

Should americans be angry at white males because of Timothy McVey? No they should be angry at Timothy McVey.

They can also be angry at Osama bin Laden, ISIS, and Al Quaeda. They should not be angry at their Muslim neighbours. Donald Trump should know better. Shame on him.
 
Never said it was “Nazi-level”. But demagoguery is demagoguery at any level.

The problem with Trump is not appeals to emotion; all politicians do that to a certain extent.

Demagoguery is:

“A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.”

This, he does in spades and in particular he targets specific minorities in the population and incites fear of them. It inflames passions and can incite others to violence and hatred.

A democracy is not measured by how well it corresponds to the wishes of the majority. That can descend into the “tyranny of the majority” and that is what Trump is playing on.

A democracy is properly measured by how the rights of the minorities are protected. Kicking minorities out of the country because of their religion is the very antithesis of what the USA is supposed to stand for. The US is fighting wars in other countries to for those rights, for heaven’s sake!!!

Anger at 911 is fully understandable. Extending that anger to an entire group for the actions of terrorist elements within that group is something else altogether and the decent thing to do is defuse that anger, not play on it. Even GW Bush was careful to admonish Americans to not take it out on Muslims in the country.

Should americans be angry at white males because of Timothy McVey? No they should be angry at Timothy McVey.

They can also be angry at Osama bin Laden, ISIS, and Al Quaeda. They should not be angry at their Muslim neighbours. Donald Trump should know better. Shame on him.
If demagoguery is measured as you say, then Obama is far more a demagogue than is Trump. So, for that matter, is Hillary Clinton, who demagogues even Trump by calling him a demagogue.

Nobody suggested taking anything out on Muslims in this country; not trump or anyone else.

What Trump actually said is that he would want to suspend their immigration until identification and background checking could be improved; something the government is supposed to be doing anyway, but isn’t.

Now, if the studies are correct, about 10% of all Muslims believe in violent jihad. That’s a lot of people. Among the remainder, there is an inherent problem in Islam; one that we had better start recognizing. In those parts of the Koran written during the Medina period, the requirement of armed jihad against infidels is very plain. The more pacific and tolerant parts were written during the Mecca period. So how to reconcile them?

During the Middle Ages, Islamic scholars came up with the “Doctrine of Abrogation”, by which the later parts (Medina) more fully express Allah’s will than the earlier (Mecca) parts. All four major schools of Islam accept that doctrine.

But there is an “out” for Muslims in all of that. Muslims are not required to wage jihad against infidels if the infidels are too strong to overcome. So, interestingly, western power gets them “off the hook”, as it were. They can go about their lives without even thinking about violent jihad. But only so long as the infidels are manifestly too strong.

It is exactly the reason why ISIS beheads people on video. The objective is to demonstrate to other Muslims that the “infidels” are weak; too weak to defend against the most barbarous and provocative acts. It’s almost a “spiritual blackmail”; a way of telling Muslims that they are no longer justified in failing to wage jihad.

Now, I’m sure most Muslims are quite content to be excused from jihad. Our efforts really need to be to give them a basis for resisting the call of the jihadis, and that basis has to be strength. Every time we show weakness, we give strength to the jihadis.

It’s a tension that will, unfortunately, never go away. Islam will always be Islam, and its doctrines will always be what they are. But undoubtedly most Muslims simply want to live in peace and go about their lives. We give them that respite by showing strength. We need to understand that. Islam will never be anything other than Islam. But its people are still people. We need to give them the one reason to live that the jihadis can’t take away from them. As a symbol, Guantanamo is not what incites jihad. It’s the opposite. It’s the symbol that “we can take the fighters and hold them forever halfway across the world, and there’s nothing they can do about it”; a symbol of strength.

If ISIS was smashed, utterly and completely, it would give Muslims respite for decades; Arab Muslims at least.
 
I should have added “all four schools of Sunni Islam” not just “of Islam”. Sunni and Shia Islam actually have at least a theoretical duty to war against each other. Some segments of Sunni Islam, like ISIS radicals, take the duty of jihad against Shia literally and as an immediate command. Al Quaeda’s leaders held that the Shia part of jihad could be deferred, which is why ISIS broke off from A.Q.
 
If demagoguery is measured as you say, then Obama is far more a demagogue than is Trump. So, for that matter, is Hillary Clinton, who demagogues even Trump by calling him a demagogue.

Nobody suggested taking anything out on Muslims in this country; not trump or anyone else.
I give up. You win, I lose.

You Americans go ahead and enjoy your Trump moment 🤷
 
I give up. You win, I lose.

You Americans go ahead and enjoy your Trump moment 🤷
Actually, I thought your last post on demagoguery on target and unanswered. My reasoning is as simple as listening to Trump, Obama and Clinton, comparing the three. You either get this reasoning or you don’t.
 
It really is lamentable that the political left has, stitch by stitch, sewn the mouths shut of a people that was once known for its outspokenness and plain-spokenness. It truly is.
Let’s not get too misty-eyed for the days when outspokenness often meant language choices that demeaned other human beings. If people believe PC culture has gone too far, perhaps we should also recognize that throwing the baby out with the bathwater would be unwise. Just because Trump speaks his mind doesn’t mean that what he says is appropriate or sane. And it doesn’t mean he should receive votes as a result of being outspoken.
 
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