Trump slams Bannon: ‘When he was fired, he not only lost his job, he lost his mind’

[SuperLuigi]

There’s few of us left no question. Republicans are unfortunately for too much government these days.

 

[twf]

Fair enough. It wasn’t a complete overhaul of the social order… but it was a complete political overhaul. From the perspective of the English (and the American Loyalists), they were very progressive indeed…

 

[Ridgerunner]

This case put to rest extraordinary scrutiny of the South. Fine. The ordinary scrutiny is sufficient and we still see states in the south missing the mark by working for schemes that are judged to suppress black vote.

“That are judged…?” You still haven’t showed us what those schemes are and how and whether they work. And if they’re so pervasive and so oppressive, why are those states now subject to the same scrutiny to which northern states are subject?

The key point is that is ti obvious from their voting solidly for Democrats against Republicans that, whatever the old history of Southern Democrats is, the present reality has changed dramatically in the perception of the black community…

Perception and reality are not necessarily the same thing. There’s nothing “southern” about blacks voting for Democrats. They do in the north too and, by all appearances, to their detriment.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Fair enough. It wasn’t a complete overhaul of the social order… but it was a complete political overhaul. From the perspective of the English (and the American Loyalists), they were very progressive indeed…

But is that really accurate?

“Progressive” in the modern sense is geared to a sort of societal redemption; puritanism writ large, self- righteous and coercive. The American colonists, outside New England at least, were not given to that kind of thing. Their culture was nearly anarchic; so much so that New England actually came within a hair of seceding from the remainder of the states very early on because of it.

I think the Declaration of Independence and the revolution grew out of the ancient principles of the Magna Carta; principles that were increasingly betrayed by centralist kings up to the American Revolution. If anything they were retrograde from the standpoint of the England of the time.

 

[twf]

I think that’s pushing it. They were more influenced by Enlightenment principles… which were “progressive” at the time. The principles of the Magna Carta may have been drawn on to an extent, but it was still very much a “progressive” Enlightenment style system of government that they devised in the constitution. No one proposed returning to rule by local autonomous Barons.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not much inclined to think any of that.

First of all, the Deep South, which was a pretty limited geographical place at the time, was virtually “Caribbean colonial” at the time, with barons aplenty. The Tidewater was a bit more “English middle class”. The Middle Atlantic was loosely governed and far more tolerant of religion and ethnic variation than England was. The “border” areas which included the upper South and much of Pennsylvania, largely following the Appalachian chain, were almost without government, whether English or American, and preferred to remain that way. The Enlightenment undoubtedly affected New England intellectuals and some in the Tidewater. But it was not particularly admired in the Middle Atlantic and was utterly foreign to the Appalachian folk.

And one needs to remember that the Enlightenment gave rise to some of the most coercive regimes Europe ever experienced. I think sometimes we Americans greatly overestimate whatever beneficial effects the Enlightenment had anywhere, including here. Likely it has a better reputation than it deserves among some because of its anti-Catholicism.

 

[dvdjs]

ou still haven’t showed us what those schemes are and how and whether they work.

I have. We have discussed this before. Reports on recent court cases were linked. It is sad that you come to the argument with no recollection of past threads, but it also suggests that there is no point in working through again. Go the the Brennan Center for Justice. Their library has all of the information

There’s nothing “southern” about blacks voting for Democrats. They do in the north too

Fair enough. You seem to want to deflect from the my objection to the the discussion of the historic racism of the Democratic as though over time the roles have been reversed - and talk about geography. My point about voting patterns holds even as extended to the north.

by all appearances, to their detriment.

That probably sounds much more patronizing than you intended.

 

[niceatheist]

I think that’s pushing it. They were more influenced by Enlightenment principles… which were “progressive” at the time. The principles of the Magna Carta may have been drawn on to an extent, but it was still very much a “progressive” Enlightenment style system of government that they devised in the constitution. No one proposed returning to rule by local autonomous Barons.

We should always keep in mind that the reputation and the perceived intent of the Magna Carta changed heavily over time. When King John signed it, it was more of a Godfather-esque “either your signature or your brains will end up on this contract” kind of thing. While rights like Habeas Corpus were certainly revolutionary, they really only applied to the aristocracy and the wealthy for quite some time, and the notion of the Magna Carta as a document representing a guarantee of general liberties was very much an idea of the Enlightenment. At the time, it was just John’ pesky barons putting some hefty limits on the Royal Prerogative to prevent abuses against them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is sad that you come to the argument with no recollection of past threads, but it also suggests that there is no point in working through again. Go the the Brennan Center for Justice

Flippant. You could easily have referred to your supposed sources again instead of simply delivering an insult.

That probably sounds much more patronizing than you intended.

So it’s your position that Dem rule in the urban north has benefitted blacks?

 

[dvdjs]

Flippant.

Pointed. shall we learn form each other or just post the same arguments as though we never heard the counter-argument before?

So it’s your position that Dem rule in the urban north has benefitted blacks?

I made no such claim. The point is simply that I think that people are entitled to their vote their preference, and that one should be cautious about suggesting that they don’t know what they are doing.

As to benefit? A rigorous analysis is not possible without control group comparison.

 

[Ridgerunner]

the notion of the Magna Carta as a document representing a guarantee of general liberties was very much an idea of the Enlightenment

I am not a historian, but I would dispute that. The idea of general liberties was much older than the Magna Carta. That feudalism reduced the liberties of the common man is beyond dispute. The Magna Carta was not a guarantee of rights of commoners, but it was a serious curb on absolutism; something that “infected” English society into the high middle ages and early Renaissance, spreading to the merchant classes and ultimately resulting in a parliament that really did include commoners and really did rule.

One can contrast that with the long-suppressed explosion in France, which the Enlightenment only served to exacerbate.