Trump stands by statements on Mexican illegal immigrants, surprised by backlash

[Path_Finder]

No, he said Mexicans

This was from a nearly hour speech and are his exact words, I don’t think he said exactly Mexicans but just from a speech, I agree he should have been more clear. The perception indeed is that he said Mexicans.

DONALD TRUMP: When do we beat Mexico at the border? They’re laughing at us, at our stupidity. And now they are beating us economically. They are not our friend, believe me. But they’re killing us economically.

The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems.

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people.

It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably— probably— from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.

realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/06/16/trump_mexico_not_sending_us_their_best_criminals_drug_dealers_and_rapists_are_crossing_border.html

I agree it sounds like he is mainly describing Mexicans, he needed to say this better.

 

[Darryl1958]

There are better ways to make the argument that Donald Trump is capable of doing.
His way was inflammatory demagoguery.

Probably though, by the time that major American cities set themselves up as sanctuary cities no longer interested in enforcing the law, there is no going back to a time when the law of the land means anything. And no kind of argument is going to change that. That is to say that demagoguery of a different stripe already prevails that enabled the situation to deteriorate to the point that it has in the first place.

 

[Path_Finder]

The Mexican government is carefree and filled with corruption at every level. It’s the example they set. It becomes obvious when so many people want to leave. Yet their economy ranks one of the highest in the world. How does that even work? If there were a logical reason I would be interested in hearing it.

See, I think the criticism of Trump’s words are largely how they came out, they almost sound like blanket statements. That is not meant.

There have probably been some decent politicians in Mexico when we say “The Mexican government is carefree and filled with corruption at every level” but still, that characterization seems to be largely true. It doesn’t mean every single political figure.

 

[Path_Finder]

There are better ways to make the argument that Donald Trump is capable of doing.
His way was inflammatory demagoguery.

Probably though, by the time that major American cities set themselves up as sanctuary cities no longer interested in enforcing the law, there is no going back to a time when the law of the land means anything. And no kind of argument is going to change that. That is to say that demagoguery of a different stripe already prevails that enabled the situation to deteriorate to the point that it has in the first place.

True.

Trump in a sense, called attention to this with his alarming words. The problem is, is if he had said this more delicately, often those people don’t get heard. I understand Santorum and Cruz and perhaps others share similar views but maybe saying something like:

“We need tighter border security, some criminals are getting in” does not resonate in the same way. In fact, we have been told this for a long time.

 

[TEPO]

See, there is no problem talking about how corrupt and mismanaged the Mexican Government. There is issue in pointing out that, in many ways, their police system has been compromised.

It is another matter to state, as you have, that enmasse, Mexicans don’t respect the rule of law.

That’s prejudiced and steriotyping.

…But everyone knows the Mexican Police take bribes. The culture is rooted in selective practices that seem to be: ‘just the way it is’… mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/world/americas/bribery-tolerated-even-as-it-hurts-mexican-economy.html?referrer=

…there are endless links I could provide on this -even walmart was caught paying millions in bribes to build stores there.

So where does this disregard for the law come from? Is it linked to the notion that border laws for illegal immigrants are meant to be broken?

Are sanctuary cities a reflection of this same disregard for the law? What is the root of the problem?

 

[Darryl1958]

True.

Trump in a sense, called attention to this with his alarming words. The problem is, is if he had said this more delicately, often those people don’t get heard. I understand Santorum and Cruz and perhaps others share similar views but maybe saying something like:

“We need tighter border security, some criminals are getting in” does not resonate in the same way. In fact, we have been told this for a long time.

Well, the demagoguery of the left exists to such an extent that even the more reasoned, and less rhetorical responses will be labeled racist and xenophobic. Trump is merely a better lightning rod to focus the debate upon in order to discredit any and all American concern in these sort of terms.

It seems to me that the existence of sanctuary cities, in which law breaking is not just tolerated but encouraged, has brought America to the point of no return on this issue.

 

[TEPO]

…But everyone knows the Mexican Police take bribes. The culture is rooted in selective practices that seem to be: ‘just the way it is’… mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/world/americas/bribery-tolerated-even-as-it-hurts-mexican-economy.html?referrer=

…there are endless links I could provide on this -even walmart was caught paying millions in bribes to build stores there.

So where does this disregard for the law come from? Is it linked to the notion that border laws for illegal immigrants are meant to be broken?

Are sanctuary cities a reflection of this same disregard for the law? What is the root of the problem?

The corruption exists because it is tolerated. The price that must be paid is coming up with a solution and the cost for failure to do so should be a closed border.

 

[Path_Finder]

Well, the demagoguery of the left exists to such an extent that even the more reasoned, and less rhetorical responses will be labeled racist and xenophobic. Trump is merely a better lightning rod to focus the debate upon in order to discredit any and all American concern in these sort of terms.

It seems to me that the existence of sanctuary cities, in which law breaking is not just tolerated but encouraged, has brought America to the point of no return on this issue.

In some states, they can probably pass legislation dealing with this. Not all of these places may be like where San Francisco is.

Interestingly, because of the strife that was in Central America in the 1980s, I understand, the Sanctuary movement got started, possibly with some help from a number of Churches.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_movement

At its peak, Sanctuary involved over 500 congregations across the country that, by declaring themselves official “sanctuaries,” committed to providing shelter, material goods and often legal advice to Central American refugees. Various denominations were involved, including the Lutherans, United Church of Christ, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Jews, Unitarian Universalists, Quakers, and Mennonites.

I sympathize in the sense, that back then, there were conflicts in Guatemala, El Salvador and so on. Now, though, it seems the idea has perhaps mutated some and not always for the good. As always, it’s a bit more complex apparently, than it seems on the surface.

 

[ringil]

…But everyone knows the Mexican Police take bribes. The culture is rooted in selective practices that seem to be: ‘just the way it is’… mobile.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/world/americas/bribery-tolerated-even-as-it-hurts-mexican-economy.html?referrer=

…there are endless links I could provide on this -even walmart was caught paying millions in bribes to build stores there.

So where does this disregard for the law come from? Is it linked to the notion that border laws for illegal immigrants are meant to be broken?

Are sanctuary cities a reflection of this same disregard for the law? What is the root of the problem?

I forgot a “no” in my original post.

Yes, the Mexican police system is plagued with corruption.

The Government of Mexico also has a lot of problems.

The issue is when you, or anyone takes these facts and imposes them on a group of people i.e.

“Mexicans don’t support the rule of law”.

For solutions I look to the statements of our Bishops who oppose a closed border and push for the rights of the immigrant and our Christian obligation to welcome the immigrant.

 

[TEPO]

I forgot a “no” in my original post.

Yes, the Mexican police system is plagued with corruption.

The Government of Mexico also has a lot of problems.

The issue is when you, or anyone takes these facts and imposes them on a group of people i.e.

“Mexicans don’t support the rule of law”.

For solutions I look to the statements of our Bishops who oppose a closed border and push for the rights of the immigrant and our Christian obligation to welcome the immigrant.

Its immoral to force our materialism on these people while rewarding their disregard for the law. It is moral for the Church to help fix Mexico -It almost seems scandalous.

 

[TEPO]

Right and wrong is not relative to where charity is needed. They are two seperate things.

 

[TEPO]

When the pope criticizes our “throw away” culture but mentions nothing on the suffering that is caused by the ‘cultures of disregard and scandal’, then there is something wrong…

IOW, America is wrong, but it is right for others to join America in being wrong.

Makes no sense -but then, with “charity and the poor”, there are no rules. It’s the doorway to progressivism.

 

[ringil]

When the pope criticizes our “throw away” culture but mentions nothing on the suffering that is caused by the ‘cultures of disregard and scandal’, then there is something wrong…

IOW, America is wrong, but it is right for others to join America in being wrong.

Makes no sense -but then, with “charity and the poor”, there are no rules. It’s the doorway to progressivism.

Nothing is wrong with what Francis has stated. Indeed nothing is wrong with anything he, JPII, PJI, Benedict, Paul VI, or John XXIII have said.

We listen to our Popes and let their words change us. We don’t criticize them.

They teach. We learn.

 

[TEPO]

Nothing is wrong with what Francis has stated. Indeed nothing is wrong with anything he, JPII, PJI, Benedict, Paul VI, or John XXIII have said.

We listen to our Popes and let their words change us. We don’t criticize them.

They teach. We learn.

They aren’t teaching me anything. They’re telling me what to do without offering logic or gameplan, much like what progressivism is -a secretive mystery with no boundaries or goals.

…How can a man of conscience be expected to follow blindly when scandal is involved?

 

[Path_Finder]

Mexico’s President (see picture of him with Pope Francis) studied at Panamerican University, a Catholic University. Mexico is also in numbers, a Catholic Majority country.

It would be interesting to insist they follow the Pontiff’s words.

 

[Path_Finder]

We will not open the doors of the border totally, there is still some enforcement.

I happen to think we should be careful in giving more reason for criminal syndicates to make money through smuggling people.

 

[ringil]

They aren’t teaching me anything. They’re telling me what to do without offering logic or gameplan, much like what progressivism is -a secretive mystery with boundaries or goals.

…How can a man of conscience be expected to follow blindly when scandal is involved?

It just sounds like you are mis-understanding what the Holy Father is saying.

There is no scandal.

I suggest you speak with your priest about your concerns.

It is not our place to question our pontiffs.

 

[Path_Finder]

They aren’t teaching me anything. They’re telling me what to do without offering logic or gameplan, much like what progressivism is -a secretive mystery with no boundaries or goals.

…How can a man of conscience be expected to follow blindly when scandal is involved?

Also, we can find plenty of Vatican documents and Bishop statements that are for enforcement and country’s having a right to protect themselves, per what Italy is going through these days as well. As usual, we must be mindful to cherry pick what we like.

It was also shown, the Church, in helping those who escaped the Central American conflicts, aided the Sanctuary movement. Likewise, if this backfires sometimes, innocents killed, we need to scrutinize the Sanctuary Cities.

 

[Path_Finder]

Even this is not the final word, but you see, there is quite a bit to research about the Church’s position and not to spin it in one way or another.

FACT: “The Bishops of the United States recognize the validity of and need for effective border enforcement that protects Americans from criminal and terrorist elements, allows for orderly and legal immigration, and respects the sovereign rule of law of the United States.”

Does the Catholic Church support illegal immigration?

The Catholic Bishops do not condone unlawful entry or circumventions of our nation’s immigration laws. The bishops believe that reforms are necessary in order for our nation’s immigration system to respond to the realities of separated families and labor demands that compel people to immigrate to the United States, whether in an authorized or unauthorized fashion.

Our nation’s economy demands foreign labor, yet there are insufficient visas to meet this demand. Close family members of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents face interminable separations, sometimes of twenty years or longer, due to backlogs of available visas. U.S. immigration laws and policies need to be updated to reflect these realities.

Does the Catholic Church support “amnesty”?

The Catholic bishops are proposing an earned legalization for those in this country in an unauthorized status and who have built up equities and are otherwise admissible. “Amnesty,” as commonly understood, implies a pardon and a reward for those who did not obey immigration laws, creating inequities for those who wait for legal entry.** The bishops’ proposal is not an “amnesty.”**

buffalodiocese.org/Evangelization/SocialJustice/ImmigrationMythsandFacts.aspx

Trump even said that those who work hard could stay for whatever this means. Since I know a bit about Ted Cruz’s and Trump’s positions on this issue, I’m not even sure if it is totally at odds with any of the above. For Cruz, you could reference a bill he was introducing that would have expanded green cards and so forth.

 

[TEPO]

It just sounds like you are mis-understanding what the Holy Father is saying.

There is no scandal.

What he is saying is that our throw away culture is wasteful and is out of line with Christ’s teachings, yet at the same time pushes to open the door allowing those who live a simple life into American materialism and the ‘throw away’ culture. Is that not scandal? …Or would it be hypocracy…? I dont know what the right wording is…