Trump Thread

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Why do you think mainstream Islam needs a reformation? Mainstream Islam is fine.
Huh??? There is only ONE true religion that has been handed down by God.

Nothing is ‘fine’ except Catholicism.

I know there are good people outside of the Catholic Church but the fact remains… everyone should be Catholic!! That’s what God meant for the world when He sent his Son to save us!
 
The basic declaration of Islam is: There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger.

Do muslims believe Allah is the same God as ours? If yes, then we share that much in common. If no, we can’t insist our Gods are the same.

If Mohammed is the messenger of this God, people can’t be faulted by wondering who this God truly is. The history of Mohammed and that of Jesus can’t be any more different.

This is not to say that muslims can’t be sincerely religious people. I do believe, however, a catholic should be allowed to say, this religion seems dubious to me.

Buddhism doesn’t pretend to have special knowledge of God and path to His favor, but Islam does claim that.

There are definitely elements in Islam that directly conflict with Catholicism.

Of course we respect those who have been handed down the faith of Islam and practice that faith with a good conscience. We treat them as we would anybody else.

But a critical look at Islam is definitely not unreasonable. In fact in today’s environment I’d say it’s something that must happen. Islam needs a reformation.
Here is what is wrong with your “critical look at Islam”. Unless you are an Islamic scholar who has studied Islam from the inside, you have no authority to say what Islam means. It is like someone with only a passing knowledge of Catholicism making statement about what “Catholics believe” through random selections of the Old Testament. Sure, you can tell them about how Catholicism is made up of scripture plus Tradition plus revelation and the on-going guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Church, but their selected quote from Leviticus tells them everything they need to know, they are not going to listen to you. Similarly, your mind is made up by selected quotes from the Koran and the words of those radical jihadists who are more like renegade priests. You are no more justified in proclaiming what Islam is than that hypothetical anti-Catholic who makes his decision on his selected quote from Leviticus and from the actions of the Irish Republican Army.
 
Here is what is wrong with your “critical look at Islam”. Unless you are an Islamic scholar who has studied Islam from the inside, you have no authority to say what Islam means. It is like someone with only a passing knowledge of Catholicism making statement about what “Catholics believe” through random selections of the Old Testament. Sure, you can tell them about how Catholicism is made up of scripture plus Tradition plus revelation and the on-going guidance of the Holy Spirit through the Church, but their selected quote from Leviticus tells them everything they need to know, they are not going to listen to you. Similarly, your mind is made up by selected quotes from the Koran and the words of those radical jihadists who are more like renegade priests. You are no more justified in proclaiming what Islam is than that hypothetical anti-Catholic who makes his decision on his selected quote from Leviticus and from the actions of the Irish Republican Army.
I’m not going to tell Muslims any thing about their religion. My point is they need to do it and figure things out. They need to analyze their religion, which they aren’t allowed to do.

Your opinion is Islam is just like Catholicism and I disagree. That’s all.
 
I’m not going to tell Muslims any thing about their religion. My point is they need to do it and figure things out.
You say they haven’t figured things out. They say they have. Who is more qualified to speak on this question?
They need to analyze their religion, which they aren’t allowed to do.
So you say. They would disagree.
Your opinion is Islam is just like Catholicism and I disagree. That’s all.
I did not say Islam is just like Catholicism. I said that your criticism of Islam is just like someone ignorant of Catholicism criticizing the Church.
 
From the BBC today on Trump.

Trump is in some respects (and I balk at admitting this) the most “left-wing” candidate the GOP has ever rallied behind. He combines left-wing protectionist fiscal views with the most visceral far-right xenophobia, race-baiting, sexism, bigotry and hate-speech, which sadly can be a winning combination with voters as has been proven in Europe before. He criss-crosses the political spectrum like an old-style fascist, devoid of the traditional “boxes”.

He is bad for international relations, bad for global trade, bad for business, bad for minorities, bad for civil liberties, bad for religious freedom, bad for democracy…I could go on but shan’t…:

bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-35836102
**US Election 2016: The Trump Protectionist Party
It may be useful to stop thinking of this presidential campaign as a contest between Democrats and Republicans.
Hillary Clinton is a Democrat. Donald Trump is also a Democrat.
Come on, you know it’s true. This isn’t a political race, it’s a class race.
Take a look at his economic policies. They are certainly more in line with traditional Democratic thinking than they are with Republican orthodoxy.
Mr Trump opposes free trade deals - that’s anathema to many conservatives.**
**Make way the old TPP, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Here comes the new TPP, the Trump Protectionist Party, which promises to do whatever it takes to protect American manufacturing jobs, even if it means slapping massive tariffs on China, Japan and Mexico.
Even if it means a trade war.
Last September Mr Trump released a tax plan that calls for higher taxes on the wealthy - a suggestion that would have disqualified any other recent Republican candidate.
He even said of his own policy that it would cost him a fortune. He is not a deficit hawk, and has promised to protect welfare programmes such as social security and Medicare**.
Since deficit reduction was the litmus test of true conservatism in the 2012 campaign, Mr Trump’s position is pretty staggering.
He is even squishy on some social issues. He has kind things to say about Planned Parenthood - a federally funded women’s health organisation which is seen as the devil incarnate by many social conservatives because it provides abortions.
Mr Trump says he doesn’t like the abortions but the organisation itself does a lot of “wonderful” things. Again, no other Republican candidate would be able to say this and get away with it.
Where Donald Trump is not in line with Democratic thinking is on anything to do with minorities, whether they are Hispanic, Muslim or female. Those are the issues on which his views cleave him firmly away from most Democrats.
That divisive rhetoric aside (and I am by no means minimising the importance of the wall, the ban and sexism), Mr Trump’s views are more in line with the American centre left than the American right.
Which explains why some people can’t choose between Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. In some ways he is reminiscent of the British Labour party circa 1980.
A much more useful lens through which to view this election is that of class. This isn’t exactly a class war - that’s too European for the US - but it is a class election. And indeed a race election.
In the states that he has won, Mr Trump draws the clear majority of his support from working-class men who are white. People without a college education who feel that the economic policies of free trade and low taxes on the wealthy have not helped them.
And they are quite right. Manufacturing wages in America have been almost stagnant since the 1970s. If you are a 55-year-old auto worker who has lost your job to an immigrant or - far more likely - a robot, you don’t just feel left behind by the forces of globalisation and low taxes, you really have been left behind.
The very economic policies that have defined the Republican party for the past two decades have not helped the working class here to adjust to a globalised economy and a technological revolution.
In fact one of the mysteries of American politics has been why working-class voters have repeatedly voted against their own economic interests by voting Republican at all - a party which has cut welfare nets, reduced trade barriers and lowered taxes on the wealthy.
There has simply not been enough trickle growth from those policies to raise working-class wages.
Add to this bleak economic picture a growing gender imbalance in the US - women are better-educated than men and increasingly earn more than their husbands - and it’s not at all surprising that you find a section of the population that is feeling, well, rather emasculated.
Throw in affirmative action programmes and immigration policies that they believe have unfairly benefited minorities at the expense of white people and you quickly get anger too. The white working-class American man is dangerously disaffected.
In this context, Mr Trump’s appeal is far more understandable. He is offering plans that make sense to people who have been marginalised by global competition and Republican economics. And just as important, he promises to restore their pride, to make them winners again.
If you feel you’ve had a bad deal, that’s a very seductive offer, whether you call yourself a Republican or a Democrat.
Whether he can deliver or not is an entirely different question
 
You say they haven’t figured things out. They say they have. Who is more qualified to speak on this question?

So you say. They would disagree.

I did not say Islam is just like Catholicism. I said that your criticism of Islam is just like someone ignorant of Catholicism criticizing the Church.
According to your logic, no outsider of a religion is ever able to form a reasonable opinion about the said religion. If that’s the case, how can people convert from one religion to another?

How can non-catholics ever get a true a gauge of Catholicism to decide whether to convert or not?

You say my opinion of Islam is ignorant but don’t cite reasons for your objection, only that I’m an outsider of Islam. That’s not a good enough reason.

Some things are obvious to an objective eye. We know what kind of person Mohammed was and the things he did, just like we know what Jesus did. My muslim friend shared with me that Islam doesn’t teach the concept of forgiveness at all, and she looks on our idea of confession and forgiveness of sins as weird, as letting people off too easily. There are many objective comparisons between religions we can make without being an insider.
 
According to your logic, no outsider of a religion is ever able to form a reasonable opinion about the said religion. If that’s the case, how can people convert from one religion to another?

How can non-catholics ever get a true a gauge of Catholicism to decide whether to convert or not?
That is why we have RCIA.
You say my opinion of Islam is ignorant but don’t cite reasons for your objection, only that I’m an outsider of Islam. That’s not a good enough reason.
Some things are obvious to an objective eye. We know what kind of person Mohammed was and the things he did, just like we know what Jesus did. My muslim friend shared with me that Islam doesn’t teach the concept of forgiveness at all, and she looks on our idea of confession and forgiveness of sins as weird, as letting people off too easily. There are many objective comparisons between religions we can make without being an insider.
Yes, and the first and most obvious one is the behavior of the vast majority of adherents to that faith, which you choose to ignore. Instead you go back 1400 years and play Islamic scholar, saying what Islam believes, and then applying that to Muslims of today. That is a very indirect and shaky way of determining what Muslims believe today, which is the more relevant factor when considering the threat of terrorism or the dangers of immigration.
 
Okay, so I only read this last page of the thread, but I thought this was supposed to be about Trump…
 
From the BBC today on Trump.

Trump is in some respects (and I balk at admitting this) the most “left-wing” candidate the GOP has ever rallied behind. He combines left-wing protectionist fiscal views with the most visceral far-right xenophobia, race-baiting, sexism, bigotry and hate-speech, which sadly can be a winning combination with voters as has been proven in Europe before. He criss-crosses the political spectrum like an old-style fascist, devoid of the traditional “boxes”.

He is bad for international relations, bad for global trade, bad for business, bad for minorities, bad for civil liberties, bad for religious freedom, bad for democracy…I could go on but shan’t…:

bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-35836102
I agree Trump is the most “left wing” Repub in several decades. But:
-He doesn’t advocate protectionism. he advocates better negotiation of trade deals. When the U.S. imports billions of dollars worth of goods in China, but it’s nearly impossible to sell into China, the deal is bad and needs to be adjusted.
-There is no reason to accuse him of xenophobia just because he wants to control the borders. One should find better reasons for accusing him of that. Europe (and to some degree our own country) might now regret its open borders, but it’s too late for them. It’s not too late here.
-Sexism? In what way? Racism? In what way? I’m afraid too many of us have been so intimidated by the name-calling the “politically correct” left uses to shut our mouths that we accept their misjudgments and accede in being forced into silence. Hillary Clinton and Obama can blame everything from out-of-control budgets to the weather on Republicans and nobody calls it “hate speech”. We see article after article in the left press and out of the mouths of left wing politicos about what a hateful bunch “white men” are. Over and over and over again. But that’s not called “hate speech”. We see left-supported protesters calling for cop-killing, but that’s not “hate speech” either.

But let a Donald Trump (rightly) accuse Mexico of encouraging emigration to the U.S. and noting (rightly) that it includes a lot of their criminals, and that’s “hate speech”.

My goodness how well we have been trained to be afraid to speak!
 
That is why we have RCIA.

Yes, and the first and most obvious one is the behavior of the vast majority of adherents to that faith, which you choose to ignore. Instead you go back 1400 years and play Islamic scholar, saying what Islam believes, and then applying that to Muslims of today. That is a very indirect and shaky way of determining what Muslims believe today, which is the more relevant factor when considering the threat of terrorism or the dangers of immigration.
One doesn’t have to go back 1400 years. One merely has to look at the news to realize there is a deadly element in today’s Islam; an element that goes to other countries to kill, but has no problem raping, torturing and killing “its own” because of minor variations in doctrine, belief or act.

Various polls seem to indicate that about 10% of all Muslims believe in violent jihad. That’s a lot of people. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone accuse ALL Muslims of being willing jihadis. But 10% of a billion people is a lot of people; virtually a “sub-religion”, but scattered and dispersed. If 10% of all Americans confessed themselves in favor of killing blacks or Jews, it would be viewed with alarm and the very character of the country would be called into serious question.

Now, of the tens of thousands of Muslims Obama wants to import from Syria or wherever they really come from, which ones are the terrorists? ISIS has said there are some among those. So, which ones are they? Until and unless we know, we have no business importing them to test it out on innocent people here.
 
One doesn’t have to go back 1400 years. One merely has to look at the news to realize there is a deadly element in today’s Islam; an element that goes to other countries to kill, but has no problem raping, torturing and killing “its own” because of minor variations in doctrine, belief or act.

Various polls seem to indicate that about 10% of all Muslims believe in violent jihad. That’s a lot of people. I don’t think I have ever seen anyone accuse ALL Muslims of being willing jihadis. But 10% of a billion people is a lot of people; virtually a “sub-religion”, but scattered and dispersed. If 10% of all Americans confessed themselves in favor of killing blacks or Jews, it would be viewed with alarm and the very character of the country would be called into serious question.

Now, of the tens of thousands of Muslims Obama wants to import from Syria or wherever they really come from, which ones are the terrorists? ISIS has said there are some among those. So, which ones are they? Until and unless we know, we have no business importing them to test it out on innocent people here.
It’s interesting: 10% of Muslims favor violent jihad, but the left tells us that Islam is peaceful and we should welcome all the “refugees” with open arms. Last year, there were roughly 10,000 “firearm-related” deaths in the US. Even if we assume that every one of them was a murder, and were all committed by different individuals, that’s a rate of .01%. But the left says we need to enact tighter gun control, even to the point of banning people from owning guns.

10% violent jihadis = No problem!
.01% violent gun owners = Massive problem requiring a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
:confused:
 
Huh??? There is only ONE true religion that has been handed down by God.

Nothing is ‘fine’ except Catholicism.

I know there are good people outside of the Catholic Church but the fact remains… everyone should be Catholic!! That’s what God meant for the world when He sent his Son to save us!
=)

Well, first of all, not everyone has or will have the opportunity to join. And of course, God knows this…

Too, not everyone is going to WANT to join. He’s aware of this, as well.

As Catholic Christians, we are aware that the Holy Spirit IS at work through His Church. Therefore, some people who are not Christians at this time, WILL be at some point. And it IS our duty to pray for everyone, that they come to know and accept our Lord, seek His forgiveness, and receive Him worthily in the Holy Eucharist. So then hopefully, the number of goats permanently separated from the sheep at the end of time, is as small as possible! (Matthew 5; John 6; 1 Corinthians 11)
 
It’s interesting: 10% of Muslims favor violent jihad…

10% violent jihadis = No problem!
Your 10% figure is not based on the percentage of Muslims that are terrorists or favor violent jihadist terrorism. Muslims have a more nuanced meaning of “jihad” that for most Muslims is more akin to the Christian notion of Evangelisation. A much smaller portion of them actually promote the kind of jihad you are thinking of.
 
Huh??? There is only ONE true religion that has been handed down by God.

Nothing is ‘fine’ except Catholicism.

I know there are good people outside of the Catholic Church but the fact remains… everyone should be Catholic!! That’s what God meant for the world when He sent his Son to save us!
Do you disagree with our Holy Father, Pope Francis, who respects other religions? Pope Francis has openly said that people of other religions, and even people with no religion at all, will end up in heaven.
 
I agree Trump is the most “left wing” Repub in several decades. But:
-He doesn’t advocate protectionism. he advocates better negotiation of trade deals. When the U.S. imports billions of dollars worth of goods in China, but it’s nearly impossible to sell into China, the deal is bad and needs to be adjusted.
-There is no reason to accuse him of xenophobia just because he wants to control the borders. One should find better reasons for accusing him of that. Europe (and to some degree our own country) might now regret its open borders, but it’s too late for them. It’s not too late here.
-Sexism? In what way? Racism? In what way? I’m afraid too many of us have been so intimidated by the name-calling the “politically correct” left uses to shut our mouths that we accept their misjudgments and accede in being forced into silence. Hillary Clinton and Obama can blame everything from out-of-control budgets to the weather on Republicans and nobody calls it “hate speech”. We see article after article in the left press and out of the mouths of left wing politicos about what a hateful bunch “white men” are. Over and over and over again. But that’s not called “hate speech”. We see left-supported protesters calling for cop-killing, but that’s not “hate speech” either.

But let a Donald Trump (rightly) accuse Mexico of encouraging emigration to the U.S. and noting (rightly) that it includes a lot of their criminals, and that’s “hate speech”.

My goodness how well we have been trained to be afraid to speak!
I don’t think left-wing applies to Trump. In the US, we have for some reason decided that all politics are either “left” or "right.’ That is simply not the case - there are lots of different flavors out there, even if most don’t play well in the US. Trump is a populist and a nationalist (and an opportunist). I don’t think he fits into either party’s ordinary definition of “left” and “right”.
 
Do you disagree with our Holy Father, Pope Francis, who respects other religions? Pope Francis has openly said that people of other religions, and even people with no religion at all, will end up in heaven.
Which is entirely up to Christ…

As He is the One Who knows the state of a person’s soul, and none of us knows the date and time we will meet Him. Although it’s pretty safe to conclude that those who practice and preach unrepented sinfulness that they have served like a god, most likely won’t make it to Heaven. Which of course we are to pray doesn’t happen to anyone, no matter who they are or what they’ve done. †
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread is wandering, please stay on the topic of Donald Trump’s run for the presidency of the US
 
I don’t see the ‘Muslim religion’ as a religion. It’s more of a cult or an ideology. At best, it is a false religion. You cannot support or defend something that is totally contrary to Christs true religion. Nothing can compare to Gods truth.
I am not sure why anyone would defend the ideology that Muslims believe. It was started by a pedophile. A man who married a 6 yo girl!!
These days if a pedophile started a ‘religion’ people would be outraged. Why are we not outraged just because it was started hundreds of years ago?

Some opinions are not allowed expression on these forums. Forget the history of Islam, it is the current understanding that it is a peaceful religion. We have rules to abide by IF we wish to chat on CA. This requires a poster to be more creative to avoid disrespect. It seems to fly in the face of efforts to be rid of political correctness that distorts the truth of the subject but C’est la vie! ;
 
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