Trump Thread

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Lily_Bernans said:
I agree with you.

I will say, and have said here several times, if a fourteen-year-old kid, for example, is forced to have an abortion by her parents, with whom she lives and depends on, she would not bear nearly as much culpability as a thirty-year-old woman who has a good job and simply would find a child “burdensome.”
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Absolutely about the 14 yr old. We are talking about a minor in that case and they are handled differently by the justice system because there is a different level of culpability.
 
TCEL said:
What’s the point of pro-choicers opinion on whether the woman is punished? If the pro-life movement decided that we should leave women out in the cold (and what of the men?) and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, will pro-choicers be any more inclined to change their position? I doubt it. So, pro-lifers will keep plugging away and extending mercy instead of stones.
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Pro choicers aren’t the ones running around crying murder. But if you’re going to call it murder and make abortion illegal and extend mercy, then for consistency you have to extend the same mercy to all murders. That’s the point. Either it’s murder or it is not murder. And even if you punish the doctor, the woman would have to be considered an accomplice of some sort to the murder. If abortion is murder. There in lies the hypocrisy imho.
 
Little_Sheep said:
This really is the crux of it. I know approximately a dozen women who have had abortions (and they each had different reasons for making this this choice). Not one of these women were coerced by another human being or a “culture of death.” Neither did one of them make the decision lightly.

If someone genuinely believes that these women are cold-blooded murderers, then why wouldn’t they believe they deserve to be treated the way we treat other cold-blooded murderers. A rational human can only conclude that abortion as “murder” is meaningless rhetoric. Without such rhetoric, anti-choicers may have an actual shot at changing hearts and minds.

The real deal with Roe v. Wade is a woman’s right to privacy. A pregnant woman is under no obligation to tell anyone else she is pregnant or to discuss how her pregnancy does or doesn’t progress.
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Undoubtedly the reasons why women have abortions vary. So do the reasons why some people steal. And no one steals because he’s forced to do it.

Saying “oh, we must have abortion on demand or women will be charged with murder” is a false dichotomy. As other posters have pointed out, women have not been prosecuted in this country for it even when it was illegal. And there is no reason to think they would be in the future.

But I do think it’s wrong to exonerate the “culture of death” in all of this. One recalls Obama declaring publicly that he supports abortion on demand because if one of his daughters unexpectedly became pregnant (not that the cause is involuntary) he would not want her “burdened with a baby”. That speaks volumes about him and about the culture of a society that would elect him. How could he have failed to, instead, declare that he would raise the baby if it came to that? His own grandchild and he would have it dismembered and tossed out with “medical waste” to a landfill. His own grandchild. Did he believe himself in saying such a soulless thing? Hard to think he didn’t. And yet, he not only reflected, but reinforced a cultural necromancy that we see spreading into things like euthanasia and treating babies’ bodies as an industrial resource like Soylent Green.

We once shrank from things like that. But we don’t now. We now consider such things entirely reasonable because, well, because we don’t get arrested if we do them and because people who are famous for being famous, tout evils as goods.

And if, in that cultural fever swamp, some women emerge with moral malaria, how can we seriously claim that the pervasive “culture of death” had no part in it?

Here we are in this thread; Catholics who defend what our Church teaches is an intrinsic evil; that is, an evil every time and without legitimate justification. And, for whatever other political predilections we have, support those who support a thing so vile that we would run from the room in abject horror if we ever witnessed it. But because it happens away from us, (that privacy we so worship) we accept as good something our own human natures would make us run from if we actually saw it.

No, it is exactly right to call it what it is. We all know it. The people who engage in it know it. Those who sell baby body parts know it. Even Obama and Hillary Clinton know it. We should not bow down before the “political correctness” that wants us to share in the lying; that wants to shut every mouth that dares to tell the truth.

And abortion is not “private”. It’s not like having a suspicious mole removed that nobody ever saw. Others are, more often than not, involved. And some, one suspects, do not wish to be involved. How many men on this thread, would be unmoved if he knew his own wife killed his child? How many would want a wife like that? How many have rejected the very idea of marriage because two supreme court justices declared that his children can be killed without his having anything to say about it?

I don’t know the answer to that last thing. I only know that the non-marriage rate has skyrocketed beginning shortly after Roe vs. Wade.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Exactly. The very definition of a straw man. These women have already been punished-by the procedure itself.
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This is a good argument that needs to be further explored. It’s true that through abortion a woman kills her own inheritance, a loss that is probably beyond anything else that could happen in life. There is a lot of emotional sorrow once the sin is made aware. No punishment can do any good for the woman or the society.

But legally speaking a punishment would serve as a determent more than anything else. And logically speaking it’s not right to punish the abortionist but leave the woman alone.

This is not a criticism of the pro-life movement at all. It’s a question and a dilemma.
 
josie_L said:
I am well aware that abortion is murder, however, the difference lies in the fact that abortion is disguised as a “good” rather than what it really is, a great evil, and people/society have bought into it.
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What I am getting at is I think Trump should have stuck with his remark that woman should be punished if it was made illegal, because after all, it is murder. I don’t get pro-life people getting on his back for that remark. He was simply following the logical conclusion. What good is making something illegal if there is no legal consequence to doing it?
 
TCEL said:
What’s the point of pro-choicers opinion on whether the woman is punished? If the pro-life movement decided that we should leave women out in the cold (and what of the men?) and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, will pro-choicers be any more inclined to change their position? I doubt it. So, pro-lifers will keep plugging away and extending mercy instead of stones.
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Nope, when pro-choicers and anti-choicers consider abortion as public policy, they truly inherit different landscapes and see different things.

That said, I do believe to the bottom of my heart that if society ever got to the point where it outlawed abortion, it wouldn’t be long before it tried women who sought abortion as murderers.

Luckily, like Limbaugh, I don’t believe that abortion will ever in a billion years be outlawed in the USA.
 
Tbrightson said:
What I am getting at is I think Trump should have stuck with his remark that woman should be punished if it was made illegal, because after all, it is murder. I don’t get pro-life people getting on his back for that remark. He was simply following the logical conclusion. What good is making something illegal if there is no legal consequence to doing it?
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I’m sure trump went home and got schooled by some pro-life authorities. He probably would defer these questions to the pro-life movement because he sees them as the bastion and anchor. He is definitely not versed on pro-life issues as he is on the economy and his main platform is not on social issues. He would try to listen to authoritative voices on social issues which would be the social conservatives.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Why not extend the same mercy to all murders?
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As this source says;

“only abortion has decades of legal recognition and social celebration as a constitutional right, and pervasive misinformation about what its victim is—a propaganda campaign backed by a powerful industry, influential advocacy groups, forces at every level of government, one of America’s two main political parties, and scores of wide-ranging voices in our media, education establishment, and popular culture. It’s entirely appropriate to consider how pervasively abortion seekers have been misled for so long when deciding whether to punish them.”

Murder is a deliberate act to kill a human being, a person. The issue with abortion is, is many women have been misled by various sources, many probably don’t understand or know that they are killing a human being, sadly. So I don’t think the law would view them as the same as murderers who set out to kill somebody that they know for sure is alive and a human being.

Try and find a single case of a woman tried and convicted for murder for getting an illegal abortion before Roe v Wade.
 
TCEL said:
Or, the defense is that pro-lifers are more merciful than pro-choicers are able or willing to recognize?

Many women really do have abortions because they feel trapped and like they have no choice.

I’m disgusted that Catholics would attack the pro-life movement on this point. (Not saying you are a Catholic, but some pro-choice Catholics do.)

Would it make people feel more comfortable if we declared that all women be tried for murder? Anyway, I’m not wanting to get too involved with this thread. This specific attack of the pro-life movement angers me. Do people want us to throw stones instead?
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I would prefer that people take logically and morally consistent positions. How can you call a woman a baby murderer and then say she should not face any criminal prosecution? If abortion is murder, treat it like murder. If you don’t want to treat it like murder, then admit its not the same as murder.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Undoubtedly the reasons why women have abortions vary. So do the reasons why some people steal. And no one steals because he’s forced to do it.

Saying “oh, we must have abortion on demand or women will be charged with murder” is a false dichotomy. As other posters have pointed out, women have not been prosecuted in this country for it even when it was illegal. And there is no reason to think they would be in the future.

But I do think it’s wrong to exonerate the “culture of death” in all of this. One recalls Obama declaring publicly that he supports abortion on demand because if one of his daughters unexpectedly became pregnant (not that the cause is involuntary) he would not want her “burdened with a baby”. That speaks volumes about him and about the culture of a society that would elect him. How could he have failed to, instead, declare that he would raise the baby if it came to that? His own grandchild and he would have it dismembered and tossed out with “medical waste” to a landfill. His own grandchild. Did he believe himself in saying such a soulless thing? Hard to think he didn’t. And yet, he not only reflected, but reinforced a cultural necromancy that we see spreading into things like euthanasia and treating babies’ bodies as an industrial resource like Soylent Green.

We once shrank from things like that. But we don’t now. We now consider such things entirely reasonable because, well, because we don’t get arrested if we do them and because people who are famous for being famous, tout evils as goods.

And if, in that cultural fever swamp, some women emerge with moral malaria, how can we seriously claim that the pervasive “culture of death” had no part in it?

Here we are in this thread; Catholics who defend what our Church teaches is an intrinsic evil; that is, an evil every time and without legitimate justification. And, for whatever other political predilections we have, support those who support a thing so vile that we would run from the room in abject horror if we ever witnessed it. But because it happens away from us, (that privacy we so worship) we accept as good something our own human natures would make us run from if we actually saw it.

No, it is exactly right to call it what it is. We all know it. The people who engage in it know it. Those who sell baby body parts know it. Even Obama and Hillary Clinton know it. We should not bow down before the “political correctness” that wants us to share in the lying; that wants to shut every mouth that dares to tell the truth.

And abortion is not “private”. It’s not like having a suspicious mole removed that nobody ever saw. Others are, more often than not, involved. And some, one suspects, do not wish to be involved. How many men on this thread, would be unmoved if he knew his own wife killed his child? How many would want a wife like that? How many have rejected the very idea of marriage because two supreme court justices declared that his children can be killed without his having anything to say about it?

I don’t know the answer to that last thing. I only know that the non-marriage rate has skyrocketed beginning shortly after Roe vs. Wade.
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I deeply respect your well-considered thoughts and beliefs, RR. I would support you to the end in applying them to your own fertility. But your fertility will never be my business unless you invite me into it. That’s what I mean when I say that Roe v. Wade is, ultimately, about privacy and every women’s right to control her sovereign body.

I hope we can agree to disagree and still be friends!
 
_Abyssinia said:
As this source says;

“only abortion has decades of legal recognition and social celebration as a constitutional right, and pervasive misinformation about what its victim is—a propaganda campaign backed by a powerful industry, influential advocacy groups, forces at every level of government, one of America’s two main political parties, and scores of wide-ranging voices in our media, education establishment, and popular culture. It’s entirely appropriate to consider how pervasively abortion seekers have been misled for so long when deciding whether to punish them.”

Murder is a deliberate act to kill a human being, a person. The issue with abortion is, is many women have been misled by various sources, many probably don’t understand or know that they are killing a human being, sadly. So I don’t think the law would view them as the same as murderers who set out to kill somebody that they know for sure is alive and a human being.

Try and find a single case of a woman tried and convicted for murder for getting an illegal abortion before Roe v Wade.
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What could be very interesting is to go back to the Jewish law and see what things were done in cases like this. I have no idea but this could make a very good research topic for someone.
 
TMC said:
I would prefer that people take logically and morally consistent positions. How can you call a woman a baby murderer and then say she should not face any criminal prosecution? If abortion is murder, treat it like murder. If you don’t want to treat it like murder, then admit its not the same as murder.
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Thank you.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
I think he has (further) damaged himself. It was a really, stupid gotcha question. Trump’s **only mistake was answering it **(and, come to think of it, going on Matthews show in the first place)
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I imagine many will see it that way, but I don’t.
 
Little_Sheep said:
I deeply respect your well-considered thoughts and beliefs, RR. I would support you to the end in applying them to your own fertility. But your fertility will never be my business unless you invite me into it. That’s what I mean when I say that Roe v. Wade is, ultimately, about privacy and every women’s right to control her sovereign body.

I hope we can agree to disagree and still be friends!
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Just because the Supreme Court claims something in their majority ruling such as in the case of Roe v Wade, right to privacy, doesn’t mean they can’t be wrong. They are not infallible. A ruling from the court doesn’t mean it’s right morally and plenty of people dispute the claim of a right to privacy on a constitutional basis.
 
TCEL said:
Or, the defense is that pro-lifers are more merciful than pro-choicers are able or willing to recognize?

Many women really do have abortions because they feel trapped and like they have no choice.

**I’m disgusted that Catholics would attack the pro-life movement on this point. (Not saying you are a Catholic, but some pro-choice Catholics do.)
**
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FWIW, I’ve found that coming on this forum is a very, very different experience from encountering Catholics IRL.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Why not extend the same mercy to all murders?
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What’s the legal difference between abortion and other forms of murder? The article Abyssinia cited lays it out very clearly.

Personally, I’m not against some form of education or yes, even some kind of punishment. The specifics of which I’m not prepared to lay out. However, I’m more than willing to defer on this stance to one of mercy, and accept the wisdom of people in the pro-life movement with more experience.

What I take issue with is the pro-choice attack of the mercy extended by pro-lifers to the mothers, when they simultaneously accuse them of being judgmental and caring only about the child. It’s disingenuous and smacks more of justification to me. Perhaps that is uncharitable.

Some of this reminds me of accusations that God didn’t condemn slavery, or polygamy and such. He really was just forbearing it. The pro-life movement is forbearing the punishment called on for abortion, because a very influential part of the society champions it, and many people are swept along. It’s normal. And who’s to say that we, collectively, won’t suffer some punishment for it?

We can’t win in the pro-choice mindset, so we’ll keep extending God’s love and mercy.
 
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