Trump Thread

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sallybutler said:
It is obvious. The VERY best way to change hearts and minds is to make it illegal so you don’t have to discuss it and so you can throw people in jail or fine them heavily when they violate the law.

NOT
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So you disagree with our Church that abortion should be illegal?

*2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81
And how does empowering people who have vowed to keep abortion legal help change hearts and minds?
 
Lily_Bernans said:
And the Supreme Court interprets the Constitution, not Church documents. I believe it is the Church’s responsibility to educate her own, but in all fairness to her, she can’t do that if people don’t bring their children to Mass, etc.

I think those against abortion sometimes forget that in the US we have separation of church - any church - and state.
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Just because something is against Catholic moral teaching does not mean that it is exclusively a matter of religion. The Catholic Church teaches that murder is wrong. The Church also teaches that stealing things is wrong. And there are laws against murder and stealing. No one claims that there shouldn’t be such laws because of the separation of Church and State.

The only reason abortion is treated differently is because too many people can’t seem to wrap their minds around the fact that the unborn are actually people and as such are afforded certain inalienable rights. 🤷
 
zz912 said:
Nonsense. She was making a snide and rude comment about those who oppose abortion, and obviously not including herself in that group. So I simply pointed out what was glaringly obvious from what she posted, that she doesn’t include herself in the group that is against abortion. Those were her words.
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“She” I’m certain is more than capable of speaking for herself so I shall allow her to do it.
 
meltzerboy said:
Well stated and much better than Trump’s words on the topic.
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Thanks MB but otoh I must confess I haven’t gone on and on at my campaign rallies that I have a degree from the Wheaton School of Business and oh that I’m going to stop eating Oreos. And that I’m a great builder of buildings and walls and am going to make another country pay for my Great Wall, and so on. 😃
 
Sy_Noe said:
Argue all you want. But there is now, thank God, a rather great consensus on slavery. And pedophilia. We are a far ways from one on abortion in this land. But nice try.
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I don’t need to look to consensus to see what is right and just, nor do I need anyone’s permission to argue for the protection of the unborn. Thank God, indeed, that slavery is now almost universally condemned; it might not be so had brave abolitionists not worked against the tide. Every generation becomes a bit more pro-life than the last; our arguments are working, our sacrifice matters, and I can sleep with a clear conscious before the Lord. I hope others can say the same.
 
estesbob said:
So you disagree with our Church that abortion should be illegal?

*2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.* When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

And how does empowering people who have vowed to keep abortion legal help change hearts and minds?
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No. I just don’t think that the way to change hearts and minds is by making it illegal. Your post talked about changing hearts and minds.
 
Tablefor9 said:
I don’t need to look to consensus to see what is right and just, nor do I need anyone’s permission to argue for the protection of the unborn. Thank God, indeed, that slavery is now almost universally condemned; it might not be so had brave abolitionists not worked against the tide. Every generation becomes a bit more pro-life than the last; our arguments are working, our sacrifice matters, and I can sleep with a clear conscious before the Lord. I hope others can say the same.
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Well said. The real God in America is one’s individual right to do whatever one wants, from packing an oozie on the bus to having an abortion, regardless of the price anyone else pays for it. You see this everywhere from corporate greed to militant left social ideology decked out as “tolerance” - hint, you will be destroyed for your own good if you dare oppose it.

Ironically, the battle is now more often then not down to the individual to fight this and try to reestablish a common good at the core of the social order. And you are not going to get much help from anywhere in the culture, organized religion, higher education, business, entertainment, law/government, etc. We inhabit a moral desert. But that is no reason to cave. It is about conscience now, committing (and staying committed) to charitably (and effectively) finding the best means to fight and win these battles, small and large, as they come your way, on and on. Doesn’t matter if you win or lose. It is about playing the game.
 
Mini-survey: after last night’s results who wins the Republican nomination?
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Mini-survey: after last night’s results who wins the Republican nomination?
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Cruz, open convention, second ballot

(You should do a proper poll on a thread - I think this would be fascinating. But CAF does tend to be much more pro GOP and pro Trump than the normal population. We must not believe our own hype. 😃 It would be interesting to see between Cruz and Trump though, as there are a lot of conservatives on here who *presumably *vote.)
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Cruz, open convention, second ballot

(You should do a proper poll on a thread - I think this would be fascinating. But CAF does tend to be much more pro GOP and pro Trump than the normal population. We must not believe our own hype. 😃 It would be interesting to see between Cruz and Trump though, as there are a lot of conservatives on here who *presumably *vote.)
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I’m starting to concur with you on all of the above. I heard something last night about how the GOP might rather “lose with Cruz” than for the whole party to be dumped with Trump. Or something to that effect. I did hear the phrase “lose with Cruz” but I confess I was only half listening at the time. 🙂
 
stumpinfortrump.com/2016/04/06/donald-trump-endorsed-dr-day-gardner-president-national-black-pro-life-union/

Dr. Day Gardner, an African-American woman and president of the National Black Pro-Life Union, issued the following statement:

"I have been involved in the pro-life movement for more than 15 years. This is the very first time I have ever felt moved to endorse a presidential candidate.

…

We are expected to sit back and do the same old thing, the same old way, by voting for the same old establishment politicians. They smile in our faces while patting each other on the back for successfully tricking us one more time—one more political season.

…"
 
Sy_Noe said:
I’m starting to concur with you on all of the above. I heard something last night about how the GOP might rather “lose with Cruz” than for the whole party to be dumped with Trump. Or something to that effect. I confess I was only half listening at the time.
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Right - I think Trump’s refusal to congratulate Cruz last night, the ballistic statement, total declaration of war indicates just how ready he is to unite the party. At some point the GOP has to ask itself, and this includes Trump voters, if this guy can unite the party and win in November. The answer to that is no I am afraid. And I agree Cruz is a heck of an uphill battle too, but the guy is predictable, stable, and no, trust me, he is not a favorite of the establishment. And he has won in Alaska, Maine, Wisconsin, Colorado, looks good in California; I think he could do well in the South over Hillary. He is what he is. He could well look better the deeper we go in the general, as Hillary defends the Obama administration. He is the alternative.

I was for Rubio, right, I went through my mourning period and got on board with Cruz, albeit a little reluctantly. The Trumpers can do the same. I do admire the Dems for keeping it all within the family, the fights I mean. The GOP attacks itself internally with as much ferocity as they do the Dems. Bloodbaths left and right.

We have to get it together, guys. Cruz. And we need every single one of us on the same page.
 
Trump has high negatives, especially among women.

You know whose are higher?

HRC.

Almost never mentioned. I’m shocked.:rolleyes:
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Right - I think Trump’s refusal to congratulate Cruz last night, the ballistic statement, total declaration of war indicates just how ready he is to unite the party. At some point the GOP has to ask itself, and this includes Trump voters, if this guy can unite the party and win in November. The answer to that is no I am afraid. And I agree Cruz is a heck of an uphill battle too, but the guy is predictable, stable, and no, trust me, he is not a favorite of the establishment. And he has won in Alaska, Maine, Wisconsin, Colorado, looks good in California; I think he could do well in the South over Hillary. He is what he is. He could well look better the deeper we go in the general, as Hillary defends the Obama administration. He is the alternative.

I was for Rubio, right, I went through my mourning period and got on board with Cruz, albeit a little reluctantly. The Trumpers can do the same. I do admire the Dems for keeping it all within the family, the fights I mean. The GOP attacks itself internally with as much ferocity as they do the Dems. Bloodbaths left and right.

We have to get it together, guys. Cruz. And we need every single one of us on the same page.
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Make your proposal again when Cruz overtakes trump.
 
Tablefor9 said:
Is it an infringement on one’s right not to be able to hold slaves?** Slavery was once acceptable to some religious groups as well**. That does not make it right, even though there were fringe groups who argued that persons of color had no souls.

Is it an infringement of rights for pedophilia to be illegal? Historically, there have been religious leaders who had, ahem, child brides.

Just because something is legal, does not mean it is moral. I am not concerned with what the alphabet soup brigade considers moral,** I am concerned with what a holy God has to say**.
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Slavery wasn’t acceptable to just some religious groups, it was acceptable to the Israelites and to late antique and medieval Catholics as well. In fact, they believed it was their God given right:

Leviticus 25:44-46:
44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property
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St. Augustine in his Enarrationes in Psalmos (printed in Corpus christianoruam, series Latina (Turnhout, 1953-), 40: 1464-6):
“if you see your slave living badly, what other punishment will you curb him with, if not the lash? Use it: do. God allows it. In fact he is angered if you don’t. But do it in a loving rather than a vindictive spirit.”
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Servumque ipsum tuum, si male viventem videris, non poena aliqua, non verberibus refrenabis? fiat hoc, fiat : admittit deus, imo reprehendit, si no fiat ; sed animo dilectionis fac : non animo ultionis.
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So God says in Leviticus that owning slaves is allowed and it was acceptable among Christians including many Catholic ones and even some popes. And according to Augustine, God is angry if you don’t whip your slaves when they need it. I’m not certain how we can even deduce from Scripture that God opposes slavery.
 
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