Trump Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Vouthon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ms. Butler,

There was no “belittling” intended, just pointing out that irrational fears of snakes or walls are not a legitimate basis upon which government policies ought to be grounded.

Don’t you agree?

Or do you want to insist that irrational fears are appropriate grounds for determining public policy?

If you won’t propose your fear of walls as a good reason to oppose Trump’s suggestion, then I won’t point out the obvious that irrational fear isn’t good grounds for wise policy.
Calling fears irrational is wrong. That is where your argument first starts to fall down. Each person has rational reasons for their fears. Some have a fear of heights, perhaps because they fell from a high spot or they have vertigo or because they know of someone who fell from a tree. Someone without these experiences or knowledge might not be afraid of heights. Someone else may be afraid of being called stupid, perhaps because parents or others ridiculed them as children, while someone else may not care. Just because you or I do not know what their rationales are does not make them irrational. They are generally well reasoned and/or logical to the person.

However, there are many ‘irrational’ fears that lead to public policy, the second place your argument fails. There is currently a thread in these forums about TSA rules. Do we really think that everyone is hiding bombs in their shoes or soda bottles, that 9-year-olds are terrorist threats, that nail clippers will allow you to hijack a plane? Yet we have an entire organization dedicated to making and enforcing such policies because a large majority of the population are afraid of another 9/11. People often complain about government rules and regulations, yet most of them are in response to one or more of the public trying to prevent something they were afraid of.

You may want to use something along the lines of ‘a fear I don’t personally understand or share’. This makes it sound less like you are trying to insult the person you are disagreeing with. Irrational, whether you mean it to or not, demeans the person you are disagreeing with by suggesting that they are not logical or reasonable. You might want to ask why the person thinks they way they do instead of immediately telling them that their fears are wrong and unreasonable. Otherwise, many just give up discussing things with you. I know I often take myself out of discussions in these forums when I feel that I am being told I am stupid, not a good Catholic, irrational, etc, because my opinion does not fit with someone else’s opinion.
 
I’m not afraid of a wall nor am I afraid of immigrants. I’m against the wall because I am in favor of open borders and a wall is moving in the wrong direction.
 
I’m not afraid of a wall nor am I afraid of immigrants. I’m against the wall because I am in favor of open borders and a wall is moving in the wrong direction.
Well, that’s just because you’re catholic, and your church is dying! You want more immigrants so your church doesn’t die! – Steven Bannon, probably
 
I’m not afraid of the border wall either. I just think that with our debt of 19 trillion dollars. I don’t believe the cost of this border wall is a fiscally responsible or feasible idea. The cost of building the wall is estimated to be 25 billion, where the entire 2016 budget for the department of homeland security is 64 Billion…no I dont think that it is at all logical to think that congess will allow a 39 percent increase to their budget to build this wall. Nor do I fall for that cockamame theory that Mexico will pay for this wall. But then again congess did approve Obamacare which has cost us around 110 billion so far, so Congress could definitely prove me wrong.
 
Well since you brought it up, you do realize that because Trump is now receiving funding from other sources than himself, he is required by law to charge and pay fair market prices for his expense items. This is to prevent campaign donors from making “in kind” donations which would exceed contribution limits in fair market terms, but get away with it by claiming far less than fair market costs.
Whether he is self-funding his campaign or running it on donations he has to pay fair-market value for the services his campaign uses.

The Breitbart article you quote refers to the first time this became an issue in the media, in response to months-old filings. It’s correct that he had to pay fair-market value for the use of his own properties, vehicles, etc. The issue now, several months later and after new FEC filings, is that the “fair-market value” of the offices his campaign rents in Trump Tower has jumped from $35,000/month when he was self-funding his campaign to $170,000/month now that funds are coming from donors. The campaign claims it’s because of an increase in space rented despite having fewer employees. They’ve been saying for months they were going to hire people but it hasn’t happened in significant numbers. The increased rent charged on the donors’ dime is the issue, not that the campaign is paying for use of his assets.
 
You admit Clinton has a terrible record … but “hypothetically” Trump could be worse,

In real life, Trump has more than 20,000 employees … ups and downs … but mostly up.

Up a lot.

He has a better record of actuals.

He doesn’t endanger American national security.
What makes you say that? The man has no common sense. HRC has made mistakes but the woman has been is politics for over 30 years. She will put some smart individuals in her cabinet if elected. I don’t think that Trump has that capability

BTW this comment was in no way shape or form an endorsement of her, but if I had to choose I would lean towards her.
 
I was watching MSNBC today, and I forgot the guys name who Chuch Todd was interviewing. To the point, the Trump person said, that “Trump’s rallies are so diverse”. I don’t recall seeing a lot of colored people at his rallies. At 1 rally I even remember he pointed to the only black person at his rally.

Oh, and BTW, his pro black speech with 0 blacks in the crowd. Yeah, what a diverse individual Trump is. That is why he has a 8% support of blacks and 20% of hispanics.
 
I’m not afraid of a wall nor am I afraid of immigrants. I’m against the wall because I am in favor of open borders and a wall is moving in the wrong direction.
I’m in favor of the wall so that my sister can sleep at night without worrying about seeing yet another “peaceful migrant” peering in her windows. I’m in favor of the wall because people who have followed the laws regarding immigration are being cheated. I’m in favor of the wall because US businesses and industries need to learn how to survive without an underclass to whom they can pay slave wages. Finally, I’m in favor of the wall because a nation has a right to defend its borders.
 
Calling fears irrational is wrong. That is where your argument first starts to fall down. Each person has rational reasons for their fears. Some have a fear of heights, perhaps because they fell from a high spot or they have vertigo or because they know of someone who fell from a tree. Someone without these experiences or knowledge might not be afraid of heights. Someone else may be afraid of being called stupid, perhaps because parents or others ridiculed them as children, while someone else may not care. Just because you or I do not know what their rationales are does not make them irrational. They are generally well reasoned and/or logical to the person.
Well, no, my argument doesn’t “fall down” merely because persons attempt to justify their fears by rationalizing them. The question still can be asked whether or not any particular fear is justified, in reality, by the likelihood of the feared eventuality coming to pass.

Yes, there are poisonous snakes or spiders, but someone who is afraid to do anything at all because they think a spider or snake awaits them around every corner does not have a strong rational case to support their behaviour.

A good rational reason for a fear is whether there is a strong probability of the anticipated event actually occurring, otherwise the fear is not rationally justified, whether the person sees it that way or not. There are irrational fears where the fear is NOT rationally justified.
However, there are many ‘irrational’ fears that lead to public policy, the second place your argument fails. There is currently a thread in these forums about TSA rules. Do we really think that everyone is hiding bombs in their shoes or soda bottles, that 9-year-olds are terrorist threats, that nail clippers will allow you to hijack a plane? Yet we have an entire organization dedicated to making and enforcing such policies because a large majority of the population are afraid of another 9/11. People often complain about government rules and regulations, yet most of them are in response to one or more of the public trying to prevent something they were afraid of.
Well, there you go. Are you claiming that public policy ought to be determined by all those silly and irrational fears that move people? I would suppose that with some serious thought a set of criteria for determining which fears are rational and which are not could be developed. Now there still might be grey areas such as whether people sneaking bombs on airliners is a threat serious enough to warrant heightened security.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t suppose that your fear of the Berlin Wall would necessarily be a good reason not to make access into the United States along its southern border of greater concern to the federal government. I mean, if it costs actual citizens hundreds of thousands of jobs lost to illegal immigrants, that would be a stronger reason for securing the border by building a wall than the fact that the Berlin Wall gives you the willies, no? Or are you seriously proposing that your discomfort with the Berlin Wall should outweigh the loss of employment for tens or hundreds of thousands of naturalized citizens, as the determining factor for whether a wall ought to be built?
You may want to use something along the lines of ‘a fear I don’t personally understand or share’. This makes it sound less like you are trying to insult the person you are disagreeing with. Irrational, whether you mean it to or not, demeans the person you are disagreeing with by suggesting that they are not logical or reasonable. You might want to ask why the person thinks they way they do instead of immediately telling them that their fears are wrong and unreasonable. Otherwise, many just give up discussing things with you. I know I often take myself out of discussions in these forums when I feel that I am being told I am stupid, not a good Catholic, irrational, etc, because my opinion does not fit with someone else’s opinion.
Why you feel the way you do, though a legitimate question in its own right, is not of importance with regard to the topic at hand – which is whether Trump’s proposal to built a wall has any merit.

It isn’t that your fears are “wrong and unreasonable,” it is that they have nothing to do with the question of the legitimacy of Trump’s proposal, so your putting forward your fears as a serious reason for anyone to dismiss his proposal just misses the mark because it is irrelevant to answering question.

Again, determining whether his proposal is sound has nothing to do with fears that might rise up in our imaginations, but to do with actual determinations regarding probable consequences. What will the tangible results be as a consequence of doing so as compared to not doing so. This has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone’s fears but to the determinable consequences of either option. That is how public policy ought to be determined, not by whether fears – either rational or irrational – are quelled.

It isn’t about whether people will FEEL safer or FEEL better, it is about whether people will actually BE safer or BE better off.

I suppose this is the major difference between Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats focus on how the feelings of people are affected, while the Republicans focus on how the people will actually be affected. Telling, really.
 
Eight years as a state senator, four years as a US senator. What public service experience did Trump have? Inheriting money from his dad? Give me a break!
All that experience did not prepare him for the presidency. 8 years of ineptitude.
I would say Trump’s life experience in the business sector to be more beneficial.
 
The top ten cities with the highest poverty rates have been run by democrats for years.

Detroit, (#1 on the poverty rate listing) no Republican mayor since 1961;

Buffalo, NY (#2) none since 1954;

Cincinnati, OH (#3) none since 1984;

Cleveland, OH (#4) none since 1989;

Miami, FL (#5) never had a Republican Mayor;

St. Louis, MO (#6) none since 1949;

El Paso, TX (#7) never had a Republican Mayor;

Milwaukee, WI (#8) none since 1908;

Philadelphia, PA (#9) none since 1952;

Newark, NJ (#10)… none since 1907.
And the bottom line is addictive handouts.

The poor stay poor from one generation to the next thanks to Democrat “give me” programs.
 
I have said for months that Mr. Trump has no chance of winning. But don’t take my word for it.

According to the Center For Politics, Mrs. Clinton has 273 electoral votes that are either “solid Democratic” or “likely Democratic.” Not to mention another 75 electoral votes that are “lean Democratic.”

And according to electoral-vote.com, “It is well known by now that the Democrats have won 18 states plus D.C. in the past six presidential elections, and it looks like this will be the seventh straight one. Together these add up to 242 electoral votes of the 270 needed. Chris Weigant has pointed out that a few of the swing states may be lost causes for the Republicans going forward, even though they were swing states in the past. In particular, New Mexico (5 EVs), Colorado (9 EVs) and Virginia (13 EVs) may be very hard to turn red again, even with a future candidate like Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) or Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL). Together these three states have 27 EVs, making the “blue wall” 242 + 27 = 269.”
 
All that experience did not prepare him for the presidency. 8 years of ineptitude.
Your opinion. Many believe the opposite.
I would say Trump’s life experience in the business sector to be more beneficial.
More beneficial to run a business, perhaps. But he isn’t even especially good at that. Here is an article explaining how if Trump had just retired at 30 and put his money in boring old index fund, he would have made more money than he did in all his businesses. What Trump did have was a huge head start from his rich dad.
 
It is a myth that the poor who get handouts have no desire to become self-sufficient.
The poor remain poor because they don’t have acess to good schools for their children.These kids start out behind the eight ball. If the Dems Reallllly cared about the poor they would get out of the back pocket of the Teacher’s Union and really work for vouchers.Yet they fight against that tooth and nail.You see it really just boils down to keeping them down so they will need the gov’t.It is a vicious cycle. Shameful!
 
Whether he is self-funding his campaign or running it on donations he has to pay fair-market value for the services his campaign uses.

The Breitbart article you quote refers to the first time this became an issue in the media, in response to months-old filings. It’s correct that he had to pay fair-market value for the use of his own properties, vehicles, etc. The issue now, several months later and after new FEC filings, is that the “fair-market value” of the offices his campaign rents in Trump Tower has jumped from $35,000/month when he was self-funding his campaign to $170,000/month now that funds are coming from donors. The campaign claims it’s because of an increase in space rented despite having fewer employees. They’ve been saying for months they were going to hire people but it hasn’t happened in significant numbers. The increased rent charged on the donors’ dime is the issue, not that the campaign is paying for use of his assets.
Thank you for straightening that out.

So a question for you…

Hillary is paying $212k per month for her Manhattan campaign digs. Apparently, she is spending her donor’s dime at $42k per month more than Trump. Does that concern you?

I suspect there is more to this story than the media is letting on.

Perhaps under his plan to self-finance, he kept expenses at a minimum while getting the job done. Now that the campaign is in full gear, he may have seen the need to expand the campaign office, which explains the increase. The offices were moved from a smaller and less than optimal space to a larger one. Now it may be that he will be hiring more people as the office gets set up, but perhaps as a shrewd businessman he is trying to save “donor’s dime” by not hiring a bunch of people until he actually needs them, but saw the need to set up the office space.

Notice there is no attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt or to applaud his saving of donor money by not over-hiring when it may not have been necessary.

Without the details regarding why and how Trump has done what he has done any judgement regarding whether the move is warranted or not, legitimate or not, is premature.

This one needs to be sat on until more information is forthcoming.
 
Your opinion. Many believe the opposite.

More beneficial to run a business, perhaps. But he isn’t even especially good at that. Here is an article explaining how if Trump had just retired at 30 and put his money in boring old index fund, he would have made more money than he did in all his businesses. What Trump did have was a huge head start from his rich dad.
Envy is not an admirable trait…
 
It is a myth that the poor who get handouts have no desire to become self-sufficient.
Well, okay, we’ll take it on your word, then.

Perhaps, it is a myth is that they have NO desire to become self-sufficient, but do they have sufficient desire to become self-sufficient?

That question would be answered, to some extent, at least, by how many receiving the dole actually become habitual recipients. Got stats?
 
The poor remain poor because they don’t have acess to good schools for their children.These kids start out behind the eight ball. If the Dems Reallllly cared about the poor they would get out of the back pocket of the Teacher’s Union and really work for vouchers.Yet they fight against that tooth and nail.You see it really just boils down to keeping them down so they will need the gov’t.It is a vicious cycle. Shameful!
Even with vouchers, how many poor children would benefit and what happens to the others? Also, if a whole lot of poor children go to the schools of their choice with the benefit of vouchers, what happens to these schools, many of which are private schools consisting of children who have learned the basic skills? I’ll tell you: overcrowding, which results in less efficient teaching. As any teacher knows, the more children, the less individual attention each child gets. Another result: parents of children who are up to grade take their children out of the private schools and teachers leave as well. (BTW, most private school teachers are not licensed as they have not taken education courses.) The once high-ranked private schools now become similar to the public schools which the poor children left. The solution: repair the public schools by firing incompetent teachers despite the protests of some of the teachers’ unions, hire excellent, well-trained and experienced teachers and pay them accordingly, reduce class size, improve and enrich the curriculum, and increase and allocate funding to ensure that all public schools are equipped with the latest technology available.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top