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VonDerTann
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–Very often, yes, it would be unreasonable.
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ZemD
Guest
You are correct that he was reaching or hitting the officer near his utility belt. He was verbally warned to move and the officer tried to distance himself from Martin before pushing him away with one hand.
Are we supposed to assume that because he is Catholic that he is entirely ‘in the right’ and did nothing to contribute to his injuries? That is foolish. He was rendered aid at the scene, he was not left bleeding on the pavement while police officers stomped on top of him and left him for dead as some of the histrionic responses on this thread suggest.
As Catholics are we not called to follow just laws and obey legitimate state authorities? There was a curfew in effect that night, that Martin did not obey. He was warned by an officer to move, which he also disobeyed.
There is a lot of room in between “Martin is an entirely innocent man targeted by rogue police” and “the police are allowed to do whatever they want to whomever they want and we must all comply or be killed”. I don’t see anyone arguing the latter but too many arguing the former and the lack of critical thinking due to the emotional response of seeing an elderly man injured seems illogical and not very Catholic to me. Our faith is based on logic and truth, even truths that can be unsettling.
We can have compassion towards his injury while at the same time acknowledging how his actions contributed to that end result.
Are we supposed to assume that because he is Catholic that he is entirely ‘in the right’ and did nothing to contribute to his injuries? That is foolish. He was rendered aid at the scene, he was not left bleeding on the pavement while police officers stomped on top of him and left him for dead as some of the histrionic responses on this thread suggest.
As Catholics are we not called to follow just laws and obey legitimate state authorities? There was a curfew in effect that night, that Martin did not obey. He was warned by an officer to move, which he also disobeyed.
There is a lot of room in between “Martin is an entirely innocent man targeted by rogue police” and “the police are allowed to do whatever they want to whomever they want and we must all comply or be killed”. I don’t see anyone arguing the latter but too many arguing the former and the lack of critical thinking due to the emotional response of seeing an elderly man injured seems illogical and not very Catholic to me. Our faith is based on logic and truth, even truths that can be unsettling.
We can have compassion towards his injury while at the same time acknowledging how his actions contributed to that end result.
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PetraG
Guest
Well, hey, let’s all just going walking alone in the dark, ladies, because if our partner isn’t there with us, what have we to fear but fear itself? It isn’t logical to be afraid of being assaulted by a stranger!!–Very often, yes, it would be unreasonable.
And hey, when we do get assaulted, though, we don’t have to wonder whether it will be asked:
“Well, what did you EXPECT would happen, acting like THAT?”
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buffalo
Guest
I did not say that. They did not show you the EMT on site and attending Gugino was my point.The media did not make it up or plan it. It was real. Don’t fall for Trump’s conspiracy theories!
This was going around the Buffalo area long before Trump picked up on it. Did they show you the pic of Gugino on the phone while on the stretcher? Did you see the F***** the police tweets now taken down. Wait for more to come out.
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PetraG
Guest
If he had been cited for interfering with the police, I wouldn’t have had a single problem with it. Let him convince the judge that he had some legitimate reason to keep them from doing what they were doing.There is a lot of room in between “Martin is an entirely innocent man targeted by rogue police” and “the police are allowed to do whatever they want to whomever they want and we must all comply or be killed”. I don’t see anyone arguing the latter but too many arguing the former and the lack of critical thinking due to the emotional response of seeing an elderly man injured seems illogical and not very Catholic to me. Our faith is based on logic and truth, even truths that can be unsettling.
We can have compassion towards his injury while at the same time acknowledging how his actions contributed to that end result.
No one is saying he had to stagger to the emergency department on his own steam.I did not say that. They did not show you the EMT on site and attending Gugino was my point.
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VonDerTann
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Sarcasm never helps.
Sometimes, fear of an assault by a stranger is, in fact, unreasonable. Context and circumstances matter. So it is with blacks & police. Usually, blacks have no reason to fear police.
Sometimes, fear of an assault by a stranger is, in fact, unreasonable. Context and circumstances matter. So it is with blacks & police. Usually, blacks have no reason to fear police.
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ZemD
Guest
He still may be cited. He hasn’t been released from the hospital yet.
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PetraG
Guest
Well, usually people have no reason to fear the police knocking down their doors and shooting them at midnight, either.Sarcasm never helps.
Sometimes, fear of an assault by a stranger is, in fact, unreasonable. Context and circumstances matter. So it is with blacks & police. Usually, blacks have no reason to fear police.
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buffalo
Guest
Yes, they were/are within their rights to arrest him, he violated the curfew.He still may be cited. He hasn’t been released from the hospital yet.
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PetraG
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Something tells me that the DA is going to let this one get away.Yes, they were/are within their rights to arrest him, he violated the curfew.
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VonDerTann
Guest
You’re correct. Has it happened? Of course.
I’m not sure this is serving any positive purpose at this point. We’ll agree to disagree on some things.
I’m not sure this is serving any positive purpose at this point. We’ll agree to disagree on some things.
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LiveSkype
Guest
Note: every once in a while is NOT all of the time!Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:19-23
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PetraG
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You might want to remember that the question was why I feel safe around the police while other people do not. You’re saying they ought to feel perfectly safe: safe from provocation, safe from arrest, safe from rough treatment. I think you’re not living in reality.You’re correct. Has it happened? Of course.
I’m not sure this is serving any positive purpose at this point. We’ll agree to disagree on some things.
I think “agree to disagree” applies to the question of whether or not walnuts improve fudge, but yes, we can admit that we are not likely to come to agreement on this point. I don’t think “Switch Your Noodle” is the answer to how blacks feel about the police any more than it is the answer to how women feel about walking alone in deserted places in a city. You think it is. There is nowhere to go from that.
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neophyte
Guest
Why not, if you were doing something stupid like ignoring the orders of a line of cops doing crowd-control work and waving your hands around near their gun belts? Catholic or Protestant, black white or purple, he was acting bone-stupid and he has no reason to be surprised that it turned out badly.And hey, when we do get assaulted, though, we don’t have to wonder whether it will be asked:
“Well, what did you EXPECT would happen, acting like THAT?”
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PetraG
Guest
That part of the thread was about why blacks fear traffic stops, not why the man who fell after a shove might have been wise to think twice before initiating the confrontation that he did.Why not, if you were doing something stupid like ignoring the orders of a line of cops doing crowd-control work and waving your hands around near their gun belts? Catholic or Protestant, black white or purple, he was acting bone-stupid.
The premise that he was in cahoots with ANTIFA is pulled totally from thin air. It is inexcusable that the President is spreading it around as if there were evidence for it. There is not.
The President of the United States has a job to do. He is doing the opposite. I think he ought to return to being a private citizen, where he will do a bit less damage and someone else can do his job. Too bad he made absolutely sure it won’t be a Republican. (It will either be a Democrat or it will be him again.)
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Naga
Guest
It is reasonable to assume the police officers were operating with the following knowledge:
-Protests have been taking place across the United States, with the police themselves being one of the primary targets of this anger.
-Some of these protests have turned violent, whether organically or by provocateurs deliberately trying to stir up trouble.
-Multiple people have been killed in the protests/riots associated with this cause, one of whom was a retired police officer.
-The police probably have additional information on specific threats, which isn’t made public.
Here is a reasonable thought process I can think of that arrives at the action this police officer made:
-This person is approaching our police line, despite being told to back off.
-This person is now within 21 feet of me (i.e. too close for most people to have time to draw a handgun or taser and place shots on target if the person decides to rush them) and he is still approaching. If he has violent intentions, I can no longer depend on my sidearm to stop the threat.
-This person is now in my face, still disobeying commands. I no longer think he is an imminent threat, but he is refusing to comply with a lawful order, and is being disruptive. I should use proportional force to make him comply.
-I have to decide right now what to do. Taking into account all the information I have at this time, with the knowledge that a decision has to be made immediately, I push him away. He falls and is injured.
-Maybe I understand how bad the injury is, or maybe I don’t. Regardless, medics are nearby who can help him better than I can.
-Other members of the protest see what happened. They outnumber us and were already angry at us. Oh crap.
-I have to maintain control of the situation to keep things from getting further out of hand. I decide to proceed and let the medics take care of the injured.
I suspect that most posters here have never been responsible for performing police crowd control. In a stressful situation, where one has to act quickly, the best decision a person can come up with in the heat of the moment may not seem like the best decision in retrospect. But ultimately, it is what happened, and we have to work with it, taking into account the totality of the circumstances.
My personal belief is that the police officer made the best call he could at the time. I don’t know how I would’ve responded in that situation. I would like to say that I would’ve restrained him and arrested him, but ultimately, without being in that exact situation myself, and without knowing what the officer knew, I can’t say what I would’ve actually done.
Regardless, we should pray for all involved, for our unity, for a willingness to hold a truly open dialogue about why certain groups of people have such a different life experience than others, and for an end to the confusion in our world.
-Protests have been taking place across the United States, with the police themselves being one of the primary targets of this anger.
-Some of these protests have turned violent, whether organically or by provocateurs deliberately trying to stir up trouble.
-Multiple people have been killed in the protests/riots associated with this cause, one of whom was a retired police officer.
-The police probably have additional information on specific threats, which isn’t made public.
Here is a reasonable thought process I can think of that arrives at the action this police officer made:
-This person is approaching our police line, despite being told to back off.
-This person is now within 21 feet of me (i.e. too close for most people to have time to draw a handgun or taser and place shots on target if the person decides to rush them) and he is still approaching. If he has violent intentions, I can no longer depend on my sidearm to stop the threat.
-This person is now in my face, still disobeying commands. I no longer think he is an imminent threat, but he is refusing to comply with a lawful order, and is being disruptive. I should use proportional force to make him comply.
-I have to decide right now what to do. Taking into account all the information I have at this time, with the knowledge that a decision has to be made immediately, I push him away. He falls and is injured.
-Maybe I understand how bad the injury is, or maybe I don’t. Regardless, medics are nearby who can help him better than I can.
-Other members of the protest see what happened. They outnumber us and were already angry at us. Oh crap.
-I have to maintain control of the situation to keep things from getting further out of hand. I decide to proceed and let the medics take care of the injured.
I suspect that most posters here have never been responsible for performing police crowd control. In a stressful situation, where one has to act quickly, the best decision a person can come up with in the heat of the moment may not seem like the best decision in retrospect. But ultimately, it is what happened, and we have to work with it, taking into account the totality of the circumstances.
My personal belief is that the police officer made the best call he could at the time. I don’t know how I would’ve responded in that situation. I would like to say that I would’ve restrained him and arrested him, but ultimately, without being in that exact situation myself, and without knowing what the officer knew, I can’t say what I would’ve actually done.
Regardless, we should pray for all involved, for our unity, for a willingness to hold a truly open dialogue about why certain groups of people have such a different life experience than others, and for an end to the confusion in our world.
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PetraG
Guest
If we want unity, we should tell the President to cut it out with the irresponsible rumor-mongering.Regardless, we should pray for all involved, for our unity, for a willingness to hold a truly open dialogue about why certain groups of people have such a different life experience than others, and for an end to the confusion in our world.
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PetraG
Guest
Oh, because VonDerTann told us we have nothing to fear from the police. It is illogical. Because, statistics.Why not, if you were doing something stupid like ignoring the orders of a line of cops doing crowd-control work and waving your hands around near their gun belts? Catholic or Protestant, black white or purple, he was acting bone-stupid and he has no reason to be surprised that it turned out badly.
Oh, but hey, at least we have an old white man in the hospital after initiating an encounter with the police, so that shows that young black men have nothing to fear. Statistically, their chance of hospitalization is now that much closer to a white person’s. Oh, but wait, the white guy was ignored on the ground, whereas the black guy that wasn’t moving had three police officers holding him down and one with a knee on his neck. So maybe not.
This is all a public relations nightmare for the police. They do not need Donald Trump getting people more stirred up by passing around stories pulled out of thin air.
One thing that is very encouraging: Nobody here seems to have bought the Antifa nonsense for 10 seconds.
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neophyte
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I don’t know about that, and I suspect that you really don’t either.The premise that he was in cahoots with ANTIFA is pulled totally from thin air.
We can agree on that.It is inexcusable that the President is spreading it around…
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PetraG
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I totally think it was pulled out of thin air by some who-knows-who that the President tunes into instead of actually doing his job.I don’t know about that, and I suspect that you really don’t either.
When the FBI or even the police department says they think so, we’ll talk. If it was just made up by some talking head, I will consider it another nasty fantasy.
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