Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message

[LeafByNiggle]

Lots of rich kids grow into terrible adults because they never had to work for anything,

Statistically rich kids are not more likely to be any more lazy than anyone else.

Why are asians so successful?

Self selection. Asians were not brought to this country against their will. The ones that did come here were statistically more driven than the ones that stayed home. Although Asians were also subject to racist discrimination (and they were not very successful during that period of time) they were eventually accepted by the dominant society, probably because they looked more white, or possibly for some other reason.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

You know, if the Park Police or whomever, DC Police maybe, want to prosecute the people who tore down the Albert Pike statue, I don’t care.

I just don’t understand people who advocate for keeping those statues up where they are as some sort of “preserving our heritage”.

I don’t like Albert Pike, and would vote to remove every statue of him.

But private property rights should be protected by police. If they don’t do that, then people will resort to self-protection of them, and that leads to increased violence.

hould it be pulled down by a mob? Probably not.

PROBABLY Not? PROBABLY Not??

NO, it should NOT be pulled down by a mob.

So, we can defend southerners’ independent nature without defending their traitors and traitorous acts, right?

Yeah.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There’s also the explanation of cultural influences. You’re positing a false dichotomy. Culture is a tricky thing.

OK, then you are going with the “inherent” thing - where we see culture as something inherent with the individual, right?

 

[StudentMI]

Are you calling me a racist? Because if so I’m going to flag your post as against forum rules.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

gain it comes down to just two choices: 1. Blacks inherently make poorer choices than whites on average, or 2. Blacks have been subjected to conditions different than whites than causes them to make poorer individual choices. Which one are you going with?

You keep posting this false dichotomy while ignoring the realistic third option.

Sigh…I know you are smarter than this…

Okay, let’s try it from another angle.

Why are asians so successful? According to your false dichotomy, the “root cause” of their success must be 1: They are inherently superior, or 2: There is a positive racial bias toward asians in our culture.

Instead, they are generally (generalizing the entire group together) because their culture pushes them to make good decisions.

We can look at WHY their culture pushes them to maintain strong family units, WHY their culture pushes them to focus on the importance of education, WHY their culture encourages strong work, etc. But let’s not chalk it up to racial superiority OR to a positive racial bias.

Same thing with the black community. They are not genetically inferior. While there are certainly some problems caused by actual racism, the vast majority of the causes for the economic disparities of the black community comes from the CULTURE of dependence on government that was imposed on them by Democrat leaders, and drug use.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Already answered here. (see edited response)

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Boatswain2PA:

Why are asians so successful?

Self selection. Asians were not brought to this country against their will. The ones that did come here were statistically more driven than the ones that stayed home. Although Asians were also subject to racist discrimination (and they were not very successful during that period of time) they were eventually accepted by the dominant society, probably because they looked more white, or possibly for some other reason.

So asians are more successful because of self-selection - they want to work hard. Oh, and racism.

Meanwhile blacks are less successful not because of self-selection. It has nothing to do with their individual decisions over the past 60 years, but because of racism.

Okay, your opinion is racism is cause of everything.

We can’t do anything about past racism. We all agree to fight against actual racism when we see it today.

What else can we do to improve the economic disparities of the black community today?

 

[Ender]

If you are positing that individual choices are the explanation for the gaps mentioned, that raises the question of why blacks statistically make poorer choices than whites. Again it comes down to just two choices: 1. Blacks inherently make poorer choices than whites on average, or 2. Blacks have been subjected to conditions different than whites than causes them to make poorer individual choices. Which one are you going with?

I’ll choose door number 2, and as for the different conditions I will return to the one where they have been indoctrinated with the idea that racism is systemic, failure is not their fault, and that white society owes them something (see: reparations).

I just don’t understand people who advocate for keeping those statues up where they are as some sort of “preserving our heritage”.

Why? Is our heritage not worth preserving?

I have heard opinions from many sides on this. One side is that the freed slaves paid for the statue but had no creative (name removed by moderator)ut and hated the final statue, that makes the freed black man in chains look subservient.

The idea that the “freedmen” who requested a statue to Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation hated the final statue is pure fantasy. It is a total invention. Here’s how it was actually received:

President Grant advanced to the front of the stand. A moment passed in the deepest silence, but when the President pulled the cord and the flags fell away, and the bronze figures were exposed to view, the people burst into spontaneous applause and exclamations of admiration. To the noisy manifestations of admiration were added the booming of cannon and the strains of the band, which struck up “Hail to the Chief.”

Should it be pulled down by a mob? Probably not.

“Probably” not? Why is it so difficult to condemn something so obviously wrong?

Is it racist? Many people think so.

Oh, well, if “many people think so” then we need not concern ourselves with reality. It doesn’t matter what was thought of it by the people who had it created. If someone today declares it to be racist then that justifies destroying it. Calling this statue racist is a declaration that truth is whatever one wants it to be.

 

[PaulinVA]

Why? Is our heritage not worth preserving?

Not the confederacy part, not at all. What other country venerates the losing side in a civil war?

The idea that the “freedmen” who requested a statue to Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation hated the final statue is pure fantasy. It is a total invention. Here’s how it was actually received:

I’m aware of news reports and writing of the time. It would not have been reported that the freedmen didn’t like the statue. This isn’t probative.

 

[Culter]

• Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, and Ecuador all banned slavery in the 1850s
• The UK, Spain, Greece, France, Moldova and the East India company had all abolished slavery and ended their slave trade by the 1840s.
• Canada had banned slavery in the 1790s
• Russia abolished slavery in the 1720s
• Japan abolished slavery except as punishment for crimes in the 1590s
• The Ming Dynasty made slavery illegal in the 1300s, but wasn’t able to enforce the ban. The Qing dynasty was more successful in the 1730s, but a few wealthy families were able to continue holding slaves.

When I say “culture,” I meant Western civilization in general. China ended slavery in 1913. Japan did formally end slavery, so there’s that.

 

[Ender]

Not the confederacy part, not at all. What other country venerates the losing side in a civil war?

You keep returning to this as if there was anything at all in Trump’s speech that referred to the Confederacy or the protection of Confederate statues, and despite the fact that there is nothing to support your belief you can’t let it go. Such is the power of wishful thinking.

I’m aware of news reports and writing of the time. It would not have been reported that the freedmen didn’t like the statue. This isn’t probative.

The statue was presented to those who commissioned it for their approval. Apparently they found it acceptable, not that that matters today to those who find it unacceptable, or who cannot bring themselves to condemn those who sought to destroy it.

The Rev. Wm. G. Elliott, of St. Louis, to whom had been assigned the presentation of the monument for the acceptance and approval of those who had contributed the funds for its erection… (Comments at the unveiling)

 

[Culter]

If you are positing that individual choices are the explanation for the gaps mentioned, that raises the question of why blacks statistically make poorer choices than whites. Again it comes down to just two choices: 1. Blacks inherently make poorer choices than whites on average, or 2. Blacks have been subjected to conditions different than whites than causes them to make poorer individual choices. Which one are you going with?

“Inherently” isn’t the correct word. More blacks make choices that aren’t conducive to living a middle class American life. If there are any blacks on this forum who have made good life choices, please tell us how you were able to do that.

 

[Culter]

Not the confederacy part, not at all. What other country venerates the losing side in a civil war?

Many Mexicans and Indians have statues to their conquered ancestors. I think we can recognize the bravery and patriotism of Confederates without agreeing with their national goals.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

When I say “culture,” I meant Western civilization in general. China ended slavery in 1913. Japan did formally end slavery, so there’s that.

And the Philippines, and Tunesia, etc. etc.

Virtually all civilizations have made slavery illegal today. There is no sense in which western civilization is the only civilization to ban slavery, unless you think western civilization means global civilization.

And I’m sure you recognize that I was talking specifically about flaws in American culture. To respond by defending culture-qua-western-civilization is to equivocate.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

So asians are more successful because of self-selection - they want to work hard. Oh, and racism.

Meanwhile blacks are less successful not because of self-selection.

Maybe I need to explain it again. The Asians that came were the few Asians that chose to come here. They came here as free people. They were not subjected to generations of having parents separated from their children by the slave trade. So, yes, they are a self-selected group. If instead you captured a random bunch of Asians and brought them here as slaves and subjected them to generations of what the blacks endured, I suspect the Asians that remained would be very much like the blacks that remained. The blacks that came here as free men (some did) did much better than those who were brought here by slave ships. Of course there are exceptions, but I am talking about the overall statistics - not the exceptions.

We can’t do anything about past racism. We all agree to fight against actual racism when we see it today.

What else can we do to improve the economic disparities of the black community today?

We can recognize systemic racism where is still exists today and correct it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

“Inherently” isn’t the correct word. More blacks make choices that aren’t conducive to living a middle class American life. If there are any blacks on this forum who have made good life choices, please tell us how you were able to do that.

So, I take it that you reject choice #2 and therefore chose #1, which was that blacks have a poorer outcome statistically because of conditions imposed by the system in which they live. In statistics we are not trying to lay blame on any one individual. We are just trying to explain the statistic. When you say “many blacks do this or that” do you mean that statistically more blacks do that than other races? If so, why do you think that is?

 

[StudentMI]

OK, then you are going with the “inherent” thing - where we see culture as something inherent with the individual, right?

Going to answer my question regarding this post?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

If instead you captured a random bunch of Asians and brought them here as slaves and subjected them to generations of what the blacks endured,

Are you suggesting that only the genetically inferior blacks were captured by the black/muslim slave traders?

 

[Ender]

We can recognize systemic racism where is still exists today and correct it.

You made this claim before and were asked to give examples of systemic racism to which you did not respond. If even you can’t identify it why should we believe it exists, or that there is anything to correct?

 

[Culter]

So, I take it that you reject choice #2 and therefore chose #1, which was that blacks have a poorer outcome statistically because of conditions imposed by the system in which they live. In statistics we are not trying to lay blame on any one individual. We are just trying to explain the statistic. When you say “many blacks do this or that” do you mean that statistically more blacks do that than other races? If so, why do you think that is?

In a caste system, one can do everything right and have the same amount of natural talent and still have little chance of improving social situation.
If we were to take a group of Americans who have my natural talent level (low! ), circumstances (two uneducated, but loving immigrant parents), effort level (meh) and habits (no drugs), would we see a big difference by race? If we were to take a smart black man with good life habits and compare him to a dumb white guy with bad parents and who smokes meth, who do you think would be in a better position?

Since I think race is a non-issue for most Americans, I’d say that those with the best circumstances, ability, and habits would do best.