Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

[GaryTaylor]

Climate change denial. It is more a point of the de facto impacts than whether or not Trump understands that his policies or lack thereof would lead to grave harms to life on earth.

I figure many Trump and Cruz supporters perhaps subconsciously wish to harm their progeny. No one would ever admit or acknowledge it, of course, since it is totally unacceptable and they may not even realize that is their wish. But deep down they really have some perverse hatred for their children and people in general (the real Freudian complex…if anyone is familiar with Oedipus Rex or Gilgamesh or many other ancient stories). It’s just the other side of the abortion coin.

I don’t like Hillary or Bill much (I was for Jerry Brown in 1992 and am now for Sanders), but to me Hillary is the lesser of two evils and a veritable saint compared to Trump (or Cruz, or any other Republican=life-annihilator). If I vote for her it will be because I believe she would be better on life issues in general, though not nearly as good as Sanders would have been.

ALL human lives matter, not just the unborn faced with medical abortions from distressed mothers whom society has shunted aside, but the unborn also faced with environmental toxins and other human-caused harms that would kill them, as well as people who are already born and the future generations for 1000s of year to come.

My conscience will not allow me to vote for such a death-monger as Trump, even if he is totally clueless that he is such…which makes it all the worse re him and Cruz and others.

Wow, I hear you, formed conscience!

 

[estesbob]

Rather than “Pro Life”. They are “Pro Birth” because there is a great deal more to life than just being born.

So what good arev any "other pro_life rights to those whob are denied the right to birth?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

So what good arev any "other pro_life rights to those whob are denied the right to birth?

None to them. But they are pretty important to some. Just because we fail to protect the rights of some does not mean we must ignore everyone else.

 

[TMC]

So how do reconcile you interpretation with what Cardinsl Burke stated?

I agree that their appears to be some tension between what Cardinal Burke said with the guidance from the USCCB. I can only assume that he has made the judgment that abortion is such an overriding issue that it trumps all else. If that is the case, I don’t think many bishops agree with him, based on the guidance that they have issued. It is also possible that his comments are being misinterpreted. It is my understanding that the quote that has been oft repeated here was a verbal statement he made some years ago.

In any event, to the extent there is a conflict, the guidance in the formal, written documents from the bishops carries more authority, in my view, than his comments.

 

[Vouthon]

I am pro birth for sure.

Pro-life begins at conception and ends at the grave, until we rise again to new life.

I go back again to Pope St. Nicholas the Great’s Ad Consulta Vestra:

**Far be it from your minds that you, who have acknowledged so pious a God and Lord, now judge so harshly, especially since it is more fitting that, just as hitherto you put people to death with ease, so from now on you should lead those whom you can not to death but to life. For the blessed apostle Paul, who was initially an abusive persecutor and breathed threats and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,[cf. Acts 9:1] later sought mercy and, converted by a divine revelation, not only did not impose the death penalty on anyone but also wished to be anathema for the brethren [cf. Rom. 9:3] and was prepared to spend and be spent most willingly for the souls of the faithful.[cf. II Cor. 12:15]

In the same way, after you have been called by the election of God and illuminated by his light, you should no longer desire deaths but should without hesitation recall everyone to the life of the body as well as the soul, when any opportunity is found. [cf. Rom. 7:6] And just as Christ led you back from the eternal death in which you were gripped, to eternal life, so you yourself should attempt to save not only the innocent, but also the guilty from the end of death, according to the saying of the most wise Solomon: Save those, who are led to death; and do not cease freeing those who are brought to their destruction. [Prov. 24:11]**

Now that is pro-life.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

So what good arev any "other pro_life rights to those whob are denied the right to birth?

To those who are born they can still be a matter of life or death.
And how about pre-natal care also?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hillary is unfit to be our commander in chief. She failed America “already” by not only her criminal action but polices already promoted. .

This exercise of conscience begins with outright opposition to laws and other policies that violate human life or weaken its protection. Those who knowingly, willingly, and directly support public policies or legislation that undermine fundamental moral principles cooperate with evil.

When all candidates hold a position that promotes an intrinsically evil act, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.

In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral obligation to oppose policies promoting intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions. These decisions should take into account a candidate’s commitments, character, integrity, and ability to influence a given issue. In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience formed by Catholic moral teaching.

AP- Trump now has 1238 delegates today which 1237 was needed. No contested convention, Trump sealed the deal today. Emotional rants don’t constitute a well formed conscience but indicate party preference Mt 25:31-46 reminds us that we will be judged by our response to the “least among us.”

 

[Ridgerunner]

I figure many Trump and Cruz supporters perhaps subconsciously wish to harm their progeny. .

A more improbable assertion could hardly be imagined.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

A more improbable assertion could hardly be imagined.

Perhaps not a “wish” but an indifference. How else to account for lack of concern for the environment?

 

[GaryTaylor]

No one has ever said that climate control and air pollution is intrinsically evil, but in this realm a major concern arrives in Clinton “fracking” which is literally killing people in the states such as PA with water tables as she contends this tragic agenda on a world level.

Further we have introduced encyclicals on socialism and liberalism from Pope Leo XIII forward. I think we have been grasping at straws here in neglect of clear teaching. The only issue imho is its twisting to fit what is in essence socialism and liberalism. And in neglect of the existing policy of abortion.

This exercise of conscience begins with outright opposition to laws and other policies that violate human life or weaken its protection. Those who knowingly, willingly, and directly support public policies or legislation that undermine fundamental moral principles cooperate with evil.

When all candidates hold a position that promotes an intrinsically evil act, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.

In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral obligation to oppose policies promoting intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions. These decisions should take into account a candidate’s commitments, character, integrity, and ability to influence a given issue. In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience formed by Catholic moral teaching.

The policy in question in this day and age for this generation is abortion on demand. What other policy of intrinsic evil has been approved and enacted to the tune of 1-million deaths a year? None exist, there is none.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Perhaps not a “wish” but an indifference. How else to account for lack of concern for the environment?

I doubt there is one person out of a half million, perhaps out of a million, who is truly indifferent about the environment. That’s not the issue. The questions truly are whether MMGW is real and, if real, is it a threat to human existence. The majority of meteorologists, for instance, agree with the first, but disagree with the second proposition.

Now if the majority of meteorologists are correct, then is the societal cost of making utility bills “skyrocket” as Obama says he intends, worth it?

Those who predict catastrophe from MMGW say it is. Those who don’t believe in it at all or don’t think it portends catastrophe, don’t think so.

 

[Thorolfr]

I doubt there is one person out of a half million, perhaps out of a million, who is truly indifferent about the environment. That’s not the issue. The questions truly are whether MMGW is real and, if real, is it a threat to human existence. The majority of meteorologists, for instance, agree with the first, but disagree with the second proposition.

Now if the majority of meteorologists are correct, then is the societal cost of making utility bills “skyrocket” as Obama says he intends, worth it?

Those who predict catastrophe from MMGW say it is. Those who don’t believe in it at all or don’t think it portends catastrophe, don’t think so.

It might not be a catastrophe for human existence, but it will probably be a catastrophe for millions of humans who live in areas along the coasts. Places like Venice are probably going to disappear beneath the waves. Donald Trump might lose his golf course in Ireland.

 

[estesbob]

I agree that their appears to be some tension between what Cardinal Burke said with the guidance from the USCCB. I can only assume that he has made the judgment that abortion is such an overriding issue that it trumps all else. If that is the case, I don’t think many bishops agree with him, based on the guidance that they have issued. It is also possible that his comments are being misinterpreted. It is my understanding that the quote that has been oft repeated here was a verbal statement he made some years ago.

In any event, to the extent there is a conflict, the guidance in the formal, written documents from the bishops carries more authority, in my view, than his comments.

Actually there is no tension at all- you are the only one claiming that faithful citizenship somehow contradicts Cardinal Burke but that is only based on your personal interpretation . Despite repeated requests you been unable to come up with a single member of the magisterium that agrees with your personal interpretation of this document

And, of course, it’s not just Cardinal Burke. How do you reconcile your personal interpretation with this ?:

*Note that proportionate reasons does not mean simply weighing a wide range of issues against abortion and euthanasia and concluding that they cumulatively outweigh the evil of taking an innocent life. Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions

Bishop Joseph A. Galante
*

 

[Sy_Noe]

It might not be a catastrophe for human existence, but it will probably be a catastrophe for millions of humans who live in areas along the coasts. Places like Venice are probably going to disappear beneath the waves. Donald Trump might lose his golf course in Ireland.

Yes Thorolfr, it seems Donald Trump and you agree.

politico.com/story/2016/05/donald-trump-climate-change-golf-course-223436

 

[Ridgerunner]

It might not be a catastrophe for human existence, but it will probably be a catastrophe for millions of humans who live in areas along the coasts. Places like Venice are probably going to disappear beneath the waves. Donald Trump might lose his golf course in Ireland.

Venice is sinking because the groundwater has been pumped out to provide water for the industrial city right next to it on the shore. There have been various plans to replace it, but I don’t know how much progress they have made.

Trump’s golf course isn’t threatened by flooding. It’s threatened by a crumbling cliff-shore where his course is. We see those everywhere, including on the Great Lakes.

I do imagine a lot of Florida is threatened, but I doubt it’s by MMGW. Much of Florida is barely above sea level and always has been. Then, of course, they started pumping out the ground water. Remember those Florida homes that fall into sink holes now and then? That’s a reflection of the removal of ground water.

 

[estesbob]

Perhaps not a “wish” but an indifference. How else to account for lack of concern for the environment?

I see no evidence of a general lack of concern for the environment . One can be concerned about the environment and not support massive new taxes and regulations imposed by the government . Pope Francis , while calling for protection of the environment, categorically dismisses the solutions most environmentalists propose for protecting the environment-he believes, correctly in my view, that these solutions will disproportionately negatively affect the poor and needy .

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes Thorolfr, it seems Donald Trump and you agree.

politico.com/story/2016/05/donald-trump-climate-change-golf-course-223436

Actually, they don’t.

Trump bought the seaside golf course and started bringing it up to his standard. A severe storm at sea caused several feet of land to fall into the sea. Trump petitioned the government of Ireland to let him toughen the sea side by building a buffer wall. That was turned down. He then hired a consulting firm to help with it. The consulting firm, being cognizant of MMGW beliefs, said IF increased ocean levels happen in the future, it would be reasonable to build a shore buffer.

So, Trump didn’t say it, and neither did his Irish consulting firm. The latter (still not Trump)
just said IF ocean levels are rising and thinks it will rise more, the government should approve a barrier.

Saying Trump has reversed himself on MMGW is just invented by the Hillary people. And it sure won’t be the last invention they’ll employ.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hey more on Mastermind Hillary and “fast and furious” guns found in Mexico!

Last week it was reported that the State Department and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton were deeply involved in the scandal known as Operation Fast and Furious, or Project Gunwalker. Today, however, new evidence has surfaced indicating that not only was Hillary deeply involved in the scandal but was one of the masterminds behind it.

examiner.com/article/breaking-new-evidence-shows-hillary-a-mastermind-behind-gunwalker

Hillary and gun control today…

judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-justice-department-documents-reveal-widespread-use-fast-furious-weapons-major-mexican-drug-cartels-linked-least-69-killings/

(Washington, DC) – Judicial Watch announced today released Justice Department documents showing that weapons sent from the U.S. into Mexico as part of the Obama administration’s Operation Fast and Furious gunrunning program have been widely used by major Mexican drug cartels. According to the new records, over the past three years, a total of 94 Fast and Furious firearms have been recovered in Mexico City and 12 Mexican states, with the majority being seized in Sonora, Chihuahua and Sinaloa. Of the weapons recovered, 82 were rifles and 12 were pistols identified as having been part of the Fast and Furious program. Reports suggest the Fast and Furious guns are tied to at least 69 killings.

Fast and Furious was a Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) “gunrunning” operation in which the Obama administration allowed guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels in the hope the weapons would be recovered at crime scenes. Fast and Furious weapons have been implicated in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and hundreds of other innocents in Mexico. Prior reports tie Fast and Furious weapons to at least 200 deaths in Mexico alone.

The only catastrophe for human existence on this thread has been Hillary.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Venice is sinking because the groundwater has been pumped out to provide water for the industrial city right next to it on the shore. There have been various plans to replace it, but I don’t know how much progress they have made.

Trump’s golf course isn’t threatened by flooding. It’s threatened by a crumbling cliff-shore where his course is. We see those everywhere, including on the Great Lakes.

I do imagine a lot of Florida is threatened, but I doubt it’s by MMGW. Much of Florida is barely above sea level and always has been. Then, of course, they started pumping out the ground water. Remember those Florida homes that fall into sink holes now and then? That’s a reflection of the removal of ground water.

Perhaps I should clarify/correct myself. Venice isn’t sinking ONLY because of the groundwater being pumped out. Most say it was always sinking a little, which was accelerated by removal of the ground water.

Most of Venice isn’t built on land at all. It’s built on wooden poles driven deep into the mud under which the city was built in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Those poles don’t reach bed rock; they’re just deep into the mud. The engineers who did that were extremely skilled. But mud is mud and gravity is gravity and some will say that Venice was always sinking a little into the water because the poles are always sinking into the mud.

But I don’t think anybody doubts that pumping out the ground water has had a very major effect, and in fairly recent times.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I see no evidence of a general lack of concern for the environment . One can be concerned about the environment and not support massive new taxes and regulations imposed by the government . Pope Francis , while calling for protection of the environment, categorically dismisses the solutions most environmentalists propose for protecting the environment-he believes, correctly in my view, that these solutions will disproportionately negatively affect the poor and needy .

What evidence of concern do you see?