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Thorolfr
Guest
As Ridgerunner pointed out, “What’s ‘torture’ to one person might not be ‘torture’ to another.”
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mary_bobo
Guest
Let me gently suggest that you do a little research on this issue. Strides that have been made by Republican presidents have been enumerated many times on this forum. Perhaps you missed them. And while you’re at it, tell me what Democrats have done to impede this atrocity.
He might not, but we know Hilary will try to make it more widely available so which is worse? Having someone do nothing to restrain an evil or having someone trying to expand evil? We know Hilary wants to mandate that even Catholic hospitals have to perform abortions.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
What any one bishop says about faith and morals is automatically universal church teaching? Then I guess you must agree with Bishop Robert McElroy when he says:
If the Catholic Church is truly to be a “church for the poor” in the United States, it must elevate the issue of poverty to the very top of its political agenda, establishing poverty alongside abortion as the pre-eminent moral issues the Catholic community pursues at this moment in our nation’s history. Both abortion and poverty countenance the deaths of millions of children in a world where government action could end the slaughter. Both abortion and poverty, each in its own way and to its own degree, constitute an assault on the very core of the dignity of the human person, instrumentalizing life as part of a throwaway culture. The cry of the unborn and the cry of the poor must be at the core of Catholic political conversation in the coming years because these realities dwarf other threats to human life and dignity that confront us today.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
See previous post.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
See previous post.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Of course not but the priority is the innocent and most vulnerable of abortion and is in relation to Matthew 25 social teaching of the Church and the Judgement of Nations. Its quite plausible as many state another intrinsic evil that reaches the magnitude of this may indeed come about. But not exist to date to even begin to have the Church identify the evil of comparison as a factual reality today.
usccb.org/bible/matthew/25
Which relates further to the Final Judgement and the interconnected judgment will embrace all actions, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins and how we affected each other. In other words we are all responsible for each other. But the conversation starts with the first priority of women given a false right in Gods Kingdom to kill off his creation in its most vulnerable state.
Its difficult to grasp the concept we are responsible for each other. At first blush one might wonder why I should give damn about what women do with their ovaries. But in this war its simply not just about me, or them, but all of us. Were all in this together, like Pope Francis said to paraphrase, we are in the middle of love story.
So you know, think of this way, while people are dissenting about “we have to always talk about abortion” truth is we have no choice but to help you since in effect we are helping ourselves and usually as you see its more like fighting you all on the way to attempting to win. If you just work with us it would be so much less painful.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/judga2.htm
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tomarin
Guest
How can it be any more widely available than it is now?
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sallybutler
Guest
Couldn’t that logic be applied to the beginning of life issue? What might be the beginning of life to one person might not be when life begins for another person.As Ridgerunner pointed out, “What’s ‘torture’ to one person might not be ‘torture’ to another.”
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tomarin
Guest
It seems to me the beginning of life is the beginning of the biolgoical organism, i.e. when the parents’ sex cells combine to form a unique being with its own dna, i.e. at conception.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Perhaps it can’t but Obamacare and the Little Sisters of the poor attempts to further subject the Church to socialized medicine in light of the religious liberty of a formed conscience.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Which easily becomes when did that moment take place?
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graciew
Guest
We are playing with limits,it seems.
Persons aren t persons until they yell,scream,or cry…
While silent,one can do as pleases…
There is a defeaning silence in all this horror.
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tomarin
Guest
People argue about when conception takes place?Which easily becomes when did that moment take place?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
If he appoints prolife justices to the Supreme Court like he says he will, then he does not need to do another thing to have been the most prolife president this country has ever had.
We know Clinton will appoint pro-abortion justices, because she has said she will.
Some third party candidate won’t appoint anybody because he/she won’t win.
Pretty obvious choice to me.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The construct of time but as JP-II quoted in relation…
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you”
I don’t know that he wasn’t talking about a person.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you”
I don’t know that he wasn’t talking about a person.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Its becomes clearer by the post.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Context often means a great deal. Possibly you could share the context with us rather than this one paragraph.
But taken by itself, the quote from Robert McElroy does not contradict anything any of the bishops previously cited have said. But like many, he could have elucidated better.
“Poverty” in common parlance is a relative term. “Poverty” is often said to exist in the first world describing conditions that would be unimaginably lush in the third world or even in other parts of the first world. But there is also the poverty that kills. And when we’re talking about the poverty that kills, it would certainly have an equivalency with abortion. Dead is dead, and dead does not admit of degrees, like “poverty” in most contexts does. I don’t think Cdl Burke, or Bp Chaput or Bp Kicanas or the bishops on the USCCB committee would disagree with that. I’m sure they would say the same thing about organized genocide like the holocaust or the Stalinist mass starvations too. But since we don’t know what kind of “poverty” Bp McElroy was talking about, we can’t know for sure. Again, context would have been helpful.
What one bishop says does not necessarily mean it’s a true recitation of Church doctrine, but it generally is, if the bishop involved is otherwise recognized to have any credibility at all in speaking of Church teachings. “Catholic” really does have meaning.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Just google the first sentence and you will find the article.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
The context is extremely long and, frankly, can be confusing at times when he talks about “structural sin”. It’s not at all clear that he isn’t saying a lot of little sins add up to a grave sin in that part of the America article in which your quote is found.
But mainly he talks about not being blinded to other moral issues that are not a matter of life and death simply because a life and death one is in our sight. I don’t know that any bishop, or any Catholic for that matter, would disagree with that. But it’s not a call for moral relativism and does not equate abortion with, say, shutting down coal mines if one thinks they pollute. He says this, among other things:
“Finally, there are acts of intrinsic evil so grave and so contrary to the role of law in society that opposition to them is absolutely central to the Catholic mission of seeking the common good. Abortion and euthanasia are such issues because they involve the most fundamental duty of government to prevent the taking of innocent human life.”
In the context, of course, he’s talking about the role of law in society, not simply about intrinsic evil itself. But the primacy of preventing outright killing is not muddled in the article.
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