Trump v. Clinton matchup has Catholic leaders scrambling

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If he appoints prolife justices to the Supreme Court like he says he will, then he does not need to do another thing to have been the most prolife president this country has ever had.

We know Clinton will appoint pro-abortion justices, because she has said she will.

Some third party candidate won’t appoint anybody because he/she won’t win.

Pretty obvious choice to me.
There really are no “prolife” nor “pro choice” justices. There job is to uphold the constitution. Do we really expect them to overturn their own ruling on Roe v Wade? Don’t we really need and amendment to the constitution?
 
Actually, one should be able to take the words of any one bishop when he’s talking about doctrines on faith and morals and apply it to all of them. That’s why the Catholic Church is called “Catholic” (universal). Doctrines do not differ from place to place or from leader to leader. Now, as to issues of fact, there can be differences, and are, e.g. is there MMGW or not? Does capitalism necessarily lead to over-concentration of wealth? Does socialism aid the poor or just make everyone poor?

Certainly, among protestants (“protest-ant”) there can be and inevitably are differences when it comes to doctrinal matters. It’s the very nature of it that there are. In this society, and in the west generally, Protestantism has been around a long time and has had a profound effect on the culture. When, as in Protestantism, individual interpretation of the scriptures is considered equally valid for all, despite obvious differences, then naturally, those who hold to that subjectivism will be inclined to see differences in other things whether they objectively exist or not. That’s why, for example Nietzsche declared the “Death of God”. He didn’t mean God literally died. He meant that relativism had so suffused western culture that people no longer believed in “principles” (objective truth) and instead believe in “values” (truth as I see it).

None of the bishops cited so far has contradicted what any of the others said. One can pick some sentence or other that isn’t the central point of what another is saying and “interpret” it as being the main point. But if one is accustomed (and willing) to discerning the doctrinal statement among the dicta in the context, it’s quite plain that there is no contradiction among them, as much as one who dissents from Church teaching anyway might want to see it.
I’m glad you explained that. So, that I understand it:
  1. Any statement made by a bishop on abortion should be applied to the entire Church because no two bishops will contradict each other and the statement is on doctrines of faith.
  2. Any statement made by a bishop or the Pope on any other issue is not a statement on doctrines of faith and hence is left to the prudential judgement. This includes racism, torture, helping the poor and targeting of noncombatants.
  3. Catholics are not called to be single issue voters.
Got it. Thank you.
 
There really are no “prolife” nor “pro choice” justices. There job is to uphold the constitution. Do we really expect them to overturn their own ruling on Roe v Wade? Don’t we really need and amendment to the constitution?
Yea, I think we need to amend the constitution or wait for changes in medical science:

Earlier viability outside the womb the the primary legal justification for reducing the allowed window. It’s moving from 24 down to 20 wks in many states.
 
I’m glad you explained that. So, that I understand it:
  1. Any statement made by a bishop on abortion should be applied to the entire Church because no two bishops will contradict each other and the statement is on doctrines of faith.
  2. Any statement made by a bishop or the Pope on any other issue is not a statement on doctrines of faith and hence is left to the prudential judgement. This includes racism, torture, helping the poor and targeting of noncombatants.
  3. Catholics are not called to be single issue voters.
Got it. Thank you.
No, I’m afraid you didn’t get it.
  1. Obviously, some bishop or other, being human, could go dissident or heretical. Obviously, Martin Luther (not a bishop, I know) chose to do that, which is why we have Protestantism today. But those who are not dissident follow the teachings of the Church, which don’t vary.
  2. I never said this. Some decisions are fact-dependent. In general, we are free to use prudential judgment regarding the believability and weight of the facts as communicated to us. Others, like life itself, are not, because death does not admit of degrees, and there is only one relevant fact; death.
  3. No, but the circumstances might make it so if, as in this election, one candidate promotes a grave moral evil and the other does not promote an equally grave or greater evil.
 
There really are no “prolife” nor “pro choice” justices. There job is to uphold the constitution. Do we really expect them to overturn their own ruling on Roe v Wade? Don’t we really need and amendment to the constitution?
They overturned Plessy vs. Ferguson, didn’t they, and the Dred Scott decision. Also, in imposing homosexual marriage nationwide, the court overruled previous precedent.

In Carhart vs. Gonzlaes, the case was about whether states could enact bans on “partial birth abortion”. In that decision, the four Democrat appointees all voted against such bans. All five Repub appointees voted to uphold the bans.

So I don’t think anyone can say Roe cannot be overruled, if for no other reason that Roe would have seemed to justify partial birth abortion and Carhart, in effect, partially overruled it.
 
rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-we-can-absolutely-outlaw-abortion-without-overturning-roe
After outlining the personhood strategy, George asked Cruz, “Do you believe that unborn babies are persons within the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment and, if so, will you call on Congress to use its authority under the 14th Amendment pursuant to Section Five, to protect the unborn? Or do you take the view, as some do, that we can’t do that until Roe v. Wade is overturned either by the court itself or by constitutional amendment? Where do you stand on that?”
“Listen, absolutely yes,” Cruz responded.
“I very much agree with the pope’s longstanding and prior popes’ before him longstanding call to protect every human life from the moment of conception to the moment of natural death,” he added.
“And we can do that by Congressional action without waiting for the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade?” George asked.
“Absolutely yes, under the 14th Amendment,” Cruz responded.
Cruz also wanted to know when the Democrats declared war on the Catholic Church with socialized meds, the Little Sisters of the poor and religious liberty of a formed conscience?

I guess Democrats would claim multi issue also with the apparent conflicted thinking?
 
rightwingwatch.org/content/ted-cruz-we-can-absolutely-outlaw-abortion-without-overturning-roe

Cruz also wanted to know when the Democrats declared war on the Catholic Church with socialized meds, the Little Sisters of the poor and religious liberty of a formed conscience?

I guess Democrats would claim multi issue also with the apparent conflicted thinking?
The Democrats actually declared war on the Lutheran church before the Catholic Church. In the Hosanna Tabor case, the EEOC sued the Lutheran church, claiming that the government, not the Lutheran church, had the right to decide who are legitimate Lutheran ministers and who are not. The Supreme Court decided with the Lutheran church on that one.

The Dem party is generally hostile to religion that expresses itself in any context other than within the four walls of a church building and then only as to certain things.
 
No, I’m afraid you didn’t get it.
  1. Obviously, some bishop or other, being human, could go dissident or heretical. Obviously, Martin Luther (not a bishop, I know) chose to do that, which is why we have Protestantism today. But those who are not dissident follow the teachings of the Church, which don’t vary.
  2. I never said this. Some decisions are fact-dependent. In general, we are free to use prudential judgment regarding the believability and weight of the facts as communicated to us. Others, like life itself, are not, because death does not admit of degrees, and there is only one relevant fact; death.
  3. No, but the circumstances might make it so if, as in this election, one candidate promotes a grave moral evil and the other does not promote an equally grave or greater evil.
Most Catholics who claim that Catholics are not single issue voters have never read the context in which the statement was made . Here’s what Faithful citizenship says:

“As Catholics we are not single-issue voters,. “A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.”

Again faithful citizenship affirms the church teaching that a candidates support for unrestricted taxpayer abortion on demand disqualifies them from receiving a Catholic votes
In short a single issue cannot guarantee a Catholic vote for a person but a single issue can guarantee a Catholic can not
 
Most Catholics who claim that Catholics are not single issue voters have never read the context in which the statement was made . Here’s what Faithful citizenship says:

“As Catholics we are not single-issue voters,. “A candidate’s position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter’s support. Yet a candidate’s position on a single issue that involves an intrinsic evil, such as support for legal abortion or the promotion of racism, may legitimately lead a voter to disqualify a candidate from receiving support.”

Again faithful citizenship affirms the church teaching that a candidates support for unrestricted taxpayer abortion on demand disqualifies them from receiving a Catholic votes
In short a single issue cannot guarante e a Catholic vote for a person but a single issue can guarantee a Catholic can not
You misread Faithful Citizenship. You read the bolded word “may” as if it were “must”. Definition of “may”:

modal verb: may
Code:
1.  expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
   
2.  expressing permission.
"you may use a sling if you wish"
 
No, I’m afraid you didn’t get it.
  1. Obviously, some bishop or other, being human, could go dissident or heretical. Obviously, Martin Luther (not a bishop, I know) chose to do that, which is why we have Protestantism today. But those who are not dissident follow the teachings of the Church, which don’t vary.
But that’s a rare event, right? So, we’re saying, except in the case of rare exceptions, that any comment by any bishop on abortion is correct and applicable for the entire Church.
  1. I never said this. Some decisions are fact-dependent. In general, we are free to use prudential judgment regarding the believability and weight of the facts as communicated to us. Others, like life itself, are not, because death does not admit of degrees, and there is only one relevant fact; death.
Didn’t say you said this. It just seems that the other issues where a candidate supports an intrinsic evil such as torture, targeting noncombatants or unjust wars that those who support that candidate will use verbal arguments to draw away from the evil of that position and then claim that somehow the Church isn’t clear enough on the issue to hold the candidate’s position against the candidate. So, I’m just summarizing the common argument here: If a Republican candidate supports an intrinsic evil, then the Republican Catholic will claim that it is not an intrinsic evil or use a convoluted legal argument to justify their position (the verbal gymnastics that Archbishop Chaput speaks of).
  1. No, but the circumstances might make it so if, as in this election, one candidate promotes a grave moral evil and the other does not promote an equally grave or greater evil.
Apparently, circumstances make it so, because according to many around here, the only issue that matters to Catholics in determining who to vote for is abortion. This is helped out by the Olympic-level verbal gymnastics used by many Catholics to justify their votes for other intrinsic evils such as torture, targeting noncombatants, racism and unjust wars that I have witnessed.
 
You misread Faithful Citizenship. You read the bolded word “may” as if it were “must”.
When applied to abortion, ‘may’ becomes a ‘must’.

Similarly, when applied to torture, ‘torture’ becomes ‘there is no clear Church definition, so all is good’ and when applied to targeting noncombatants, ‘wiping out their families’ to ‘make them suffer’ for ‘retribution’ becomes ‘collateral damage when targeting legitimate combatants’.
 
… But the primacy of preventing outright killing is not muddled in the article.
…not even when he says:
it must elevate the issue of poverty to the very top of its political agenda, establishing poverty alongside abortion as the pre-eminent moral issues the Catholic community pursues at this moment in our nation’s history.
?
 
the only issue that matters to Catholics in determining who to vote for is abortion.
Thats a strawman and according to this conversation

1] Abortion is the priority by the USCCB because of the two pronged attack as stated several times on the not only the innocent but most vulnerable.

2] Democrats persecute the Church through socialized meds, thus religious liberty/formed conscious and doubled down.

Of what issue of importance negates the priority and allows persecution of the Church, religious liberty and in fact a formed conscience by socialized meds legally forced on the Church ?

I can’t remotely see a plausible position in regards because it doesn’t exist but in the imagination.
 
You misread Faithful Citizenship. You read the bolded word “may” as if it were “must”. Definition of “may”:

modal verb: may
Code:
1.  expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
   
2.  expressing permission.
"you may use a sling if you wish"
So we are Going to fight over what the meaning of “May” is. Of course this is not necessary since we have the guidance of numerous quotes from bishops Cardinals and Popes to tell us exactly what it means . So as we are seen when people thow out the line "Catholics are not single issue voters " they’re almost always using it out of context, implying that that means that we are not to concentrate on one single issue when in reality it means only that we are not required to vote for candidate based on one single issue . We most certainly are required to disqualify the candidate based on their support of abortion of which there is no doubt whatsoever.
 
…not even when he says:
it must elevate the issue of poverty to the very top of its political agenda, establishing poverty alongside abortion as the pre-eminent moral issues the Catholic community pursues at this moment in our nation’s history.
?
Since no candidate is running on a platform of increasing poverty this really isn’t an issue. And of course poverty is totally irrelevant to those were denied the right to live. And as the quotes we posted show disputes over the level of funding for social programs does not rise to the level of abortion. For example:
*
What are “proportionate reasons”? To consider that question, we must first repeat the teaching of the church: The direct killing of innocent human beings at any stage of development, including the embryonic and fetal, is homicidal, gravely sinful and always profoundly wrong . . . .

What evil could be so grave and widespread as to constitute a “proportionate reason” to support candidates who would preserve and protect the abortion license and even extend it to publicly funded embryo-killing in our nation’s labs?
**
Certainly policies on welfare**, national security, the war in Iraq, Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate

Archbishop John J. Myers*
 
Since no candidate is running on a platform of increasing poverty this really isn’t an issue.
It certainly is an issue. Poverty exists. I do not judge what will happen to poverty based on a candidate’s overt claim of wanting to increase it. I judge what will happen to poverty based on what I think the candidate’s platform will do regarding poverty. The candidate himself may disagree with my assessment of the result of his platform, and will swear up and down that he cares for the poor. But if his overall platform is not consistent with that claim, in my opinion, I am justified in thinking that this candidate will be hurtful to those in poverty. So for me, it is an issue.
And as the quotes we posted show disputes over the level of funding for social programs does not rise to the level of abortion.
These are not the only political questions that can come up affecting poverty.
 
based on what I think the candidate’s platform will do regarding poverty.
Like neglect the priority and then in contradiction persecute the Church and poor in it based on speculation.

Well after reading this and connecting the dots one might rightfully ask as Augustine did…
How many wolves within? City of God
My original point is the division is corrected by the New Evangelization and within from the start.
Through the ordinary patterns of our Catholic life, the Holy Spirit brings about conversion and a new life in Christ.
Here, there are two elements at work: witness, which is the simple living of the faith; and sharing, which is spreading the Good News of Jesus in an explicit way.
Also a bit further in Matthew past the social teaching of the Judgement of Nations.
“Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Mt 28: 19-20
 
They overturned Plessy vs. Ferguson, didn’t they, and the Dred Scott decision. Also, in imposing homosexual marriage nationwide, the court overruled previous precedent.

In Carhart vs. Gonzlaes, the case was about whether states could enact bans on “partial birth abortion”. In that decision, the four Democrat appointees all voted against such bans. All five Repub appointees voted to uphold the bans.

So I don’t think anyone can say Roe cannot be overruled, if for no other reason that Roe would have seemed to justify partial birth abortion and Carhart, in effect, partially overruled it.
I hope you are right. But 'Pro-Life" candidate does not = SCOTUS appointment nor Pro-life appointment nor Pro-Life ruling nor case to rule in. Too many “ifs”. That does not mean I vote Democrat. I remain independent and only God knows what I will do election day.:signofcross:
 
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