Trump's Catholic support...or lack thereof

[puer.dei]

I really don’t understand Catholics who would vote for abortion, and especially for personality reasons. I really don’t.

What you call “personality reasons,” many people call moral reasons. Dishonesty, cheating, disrespect of others . . . these are moral issues. You have, of course, every right to support that kind of behavior. But not to falsely diminish the concerns of those who don’t, and can’t, support it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Even if what you accuse him of was true, how does that outweigh the evil of abortion in your mind? The Pope and the bishops have said that no issue outweighs that, and personality conflicts are a million miles away from being proportionate reasons to back killing.

 

[tomarin]

People have a right to expect some kind of baseline of competence from their president, and that he not be corrupt (or for that matter, a borderline sociopath). I have a hard time understanding how that isn’t an issue at least equal to abortion? Genuinely, I do.

 

[PaulinVA]

Even if what you accuse him of was true, how does that outweigh the evil of abortion in your mind? The Pope and the bishops have said that no issue outweighs that, and personality conflicts are a million miles away from being proportionate reasons to back killing.

I think it also has to do with what you think a President affects in terms of abortion. I’ve said this before.

I refuse to support someone who is has the moral issues @ puer.dei mentions, as well as the obvious Constitutional and governing issues that are evident to the prudent observer.

I am sorry, but the ends don’t justify the means. I won’t support the tanking of the Republic for a few Supremes and federal judges.

 

[pnewton]

What tye of backwards logic is this?

Obviously I do not consider it backward logic. You made your point I said mine. You think I am not making sense, as I think the same of you. I quoted where he made the statement that he would not run, you…

Most people at the time considered him a shoe-in for the nomination and likely to lose in the general.

 

[JanR]

I am Catholic. I support Mr. Trump.

 

[Buks]

The fact that few people outside of Baltimore expressed outrage about this episode is more evidence to me that he is deforming our sense of what’s normal, what’s good and proper and what is not, in our political discourse. We have adapted to his monstrous personality, and excused its excesses, he has not adapted to us, and I think that’s dangerous.

I can see what your saying (in your whole post, too), and appreciate that perspective. However, for me the truly monstrous things are things that the President is our best hope to work against. Of course, abortion (beyond “monstrous”!). Also, fighting too many wars (especially the Middle East). Trade deals that aren’t helping American workers. So, in the context of 21st century America, I am completely willing to have a coarse President. Lots of the subjects of his remarks frankly “have it coming.” It’s certainly coming at him! From day 1! And it sure wasn’t coming at him because of his personality!

 

[tomarin]

@Buks obviously we take a different measure of the man. I’ll leave it at that (but see my post above).

 

[RepetantCatholic]

We’ll never agree on this issue. I see things like 13% unemployment, ballooning deficit, a recession, tensions with the global world, tensions domestically, and a do nothing Congress, as a long-term problem for America. There are studies millennials are turning out to be the poorest generation in recent history. That and the decoupling of the stock market from the real economy is problematic to me.

But, again, we’ll never see eye to eye on this subject. We could be from two different regions of America with completely different regional cultures. You could be doing fine economically, well I’m fine but I do worry about the nations future. Again, I don’t see the allure of Trump, erratic behavior aside. Again, it’s regional culture, what I consider erratic and unprofessional, others consider honest and plain spoken. To each their own.

Which is why again, my advice is to still vote but got state and local.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

What, exactly, are you talking about? What in actual fact has Trump done that harms you, your family, or anyone you know? He gave you a tax reduction. He didn’t start any wars. His economy was unprecedented until Covid hit, and it might be right back where it was by November. He takes the part of the U.S. internationally and particularly with respect to the unfavorable trade with China. He has acted prolife in every way, and promoted it.

All the things you listed are either right-wing values, or accomplishments that would have happened under any other President. You didn’t list a single liberal value. So you see the problem, right? Trump appeals only to his base. From the point of view of liberals, the harm Trump has done is:

• Cut funding to the only world-wide health organization during the worst pandemic since 1918.
• Pulled out of agreements on climate change.
• Reversed consumer protection rules.
• Reversed environmental protection rules.
• Promoted policies that lead to voter suppression.
• Promoted hatred of journalists.
• Promoted policies that resulted in permanent separation of children from their families.
• Denied compassion for “dreamers”
• Degraded respect of our nation among our traditional allies.
• Promoted ideological division in our nation.
• etc., etc. etc.

Now I’m sure you will disagree with all of these points, but you wanted to know what people perceive as harm done by Trump. Here is your answer.

 

[ProVobis]

Even if what you accuse him of was true, how does that outweigh the evil of abortion in your mind? The Pope and the bishops have said that no issue outweighs that,

So by this reasoning Joe Walsh should have been the correct choice in the Republican primaries.

 

[tomarin]

Only if you’re an Eagles fan.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Be at odds with the Church, then. It really seems these “moral” complaints are trifles compared to killing, and it’s pretty clear that’s how the Church sees it.

I won’t support the tanking of the Republic

And your evidence that Trump’s going to do that is what?

 

[Ridgerunner]

• Cut funding to the only world-wide health organization during the worst pandemic since 1918.
• Pulled out of agreements on climate change.
• Reversed consumer protection rules.
• Reversed environmental protection rules.
• Promoted policies that lead to voter suppression.
• Promoted hatred of journalists.
• Promoted policies that resulted in permanent separation of children from their families.
• Denied compassion for “dreamers”
• Degraded respect of our nation among our traditional allies.
• Promoted ideological division in our nation.
• etc., etc. etc.

I disagree with every one of them. But people don’t dislike Trump because of those talking points, they believe those ridiculous talking points because they dislike Trump.

 

[Ridgerunner]

We could be from two different regions of America with completely different regional cultures. You could be doing fine economically, well I’m fine but I do worry about the nations future. Again, I don’t see the allure of Trump, erratic behavior aside. Again, it’s regional culture, what I consider erratic and unprofessional, others consider honest and plain spoken. To each their own.

We probably are from different parts of the country and different cultures.

I’ll admit I like the plain spokenness. But that would not be enough. I look at what he has actually done and tried to do. I do not look forward to the malaise and corruption we’ll get if Biden gets elected. I would have thought the specter of the abuse of power in the last administration alone would dissuade anybody from having another go at it.

But maybe not.

I have a hard time understanding how that isn’t an issue at least equal to abortion? Genuinely, I do.

I believe you.

But I don’t understand why you would ever think his taunting reporters, for example, could ever approach the evil of tearing a child apart. The reporter lives and is cheered by his peers. The baby suffers and dies. Quite a difference.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

And that’s fine, those are your reasons for voting for him. I respect that decision. What I dissuade Catholics from doing is saying it’s about abortion and chastising others for not voting for him on those grounds, or questioning their Catholicism. It’s insincere and a form of strong arming, again I don’t fall for it because I grew up in a diverse area where social pressure was looked down upon. Most of the times abortion isn’t playing a part, it’s the political and economic world, which is vast across this country.

Everyone should just be honest. Again, what social media and 2016 have shown is that we are not a united country. So, like I wrote even if neither presidential candidate is to your liking still vote, but vote state and local. Again, what goes on state and local will effect you more than the Federal level.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What I dissuade Catholics from doing is saying it’s about abortion and chastising others for not voting for him on those grounds

It actually is about abortion and Catholics who vote for abortion deserve all the chastising they can get on this earth. Might change their minds. In the next world, the chastising will be much more serious.

 

[RepetantCatholic]

Not my culture, not my way of doing things or disagreeing with others, Different upbringing, different part of America. Doesn’t resonate with me. Here is Catholic Mass from last night, listen to the message:

 

[Ridgerunner]

• The US has lost credibility because of lack of coherent and consistent politics. Trump was laughed out from the UN assembly because of his incoherent rambling. And we would still need the treaties hat he unilaterally abandoned. Pretty much no one trust us any more. Our leadership is gone. Most other countries government elites are leftish, so no surprise. Still, I see that Merkel got the vapors when Trump merely mentioned taking 9,000 troops out of Germany. "It’s Tommy this and Tommy that, an’ Tommy wait outside. But it’s special train for Atkins when the trooper’s on the tide. Been that way since the last big war.
• The so-called boost of the economy came with a huge price, the devaluation of the dollar due to excessive borrowing. Obama’s first act was to borrow a trillion dollars for political spending. His second was to greatly raise government spending.

And the foreigners gave Obama a Nobel prize so undeservedly, it embarrassed him. But it gave George W. Bush the devil for “being a cowboy”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not my culture, not my way of doing things or disagreeing with others, Different upbringing, different part of America. Doesn’t resonate with me.

There can actually be value to different cultures. I think the Church accepts that fully.