Trump's Messing With the Military

[pnewton]

Who will defy him and the Military?

Biden for one. As of January 20th he is no longer president. That is a Constitutional mandate. To continue, he would have to be sworn in again. If he did this, and I do not see this happening, As soon as Biden was sworn in, Trump’s military loyalists, and all who followed them, would be committing treason if they refused to follow the legal president.

The question then will be how many Republicans will continue to follow a mad man, as in, “Make America Great Again (under me or I will burn it to the ground.)” If he was not just stubborn, but a Hitler, would people still follow?

 

[pnewton]

If Martial Law is declared, the Constitution goes out the window with the trash.
His Military would stop the swearing in.

No it doesn’t and no they wouldn’t. I am confident Justice Roberts would fulfill his duty even under threat of violence. More to the point, no one in the military takes an oath to follow the president. They all take an oath to support the Constitution. It is a serious oath and barring a few knuckleheads, the Constitution is never out the window for them.

If I have faith in the American people, my faith in the men and women of the military is greater.

I also do not think for a moment the current president has a plan. I do not think he has the intelligence of foresight needed to pull of a coup in the most revolution-resistance society in the world. He shows he has no sense of contingency for failure by his very actions. Since no plan ever makes it past first contact, he would be headed toward failure very quickly.

He is a man behind a curtain project an image of a powerful and wise leader. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

No it doesn’t and no they wouldn’t. I am confident Justice Roberts would fulfill his duty even under threat of violence. More to the point, no one in the military takes an oath to follow the president. They all take an oath to support the Constitution. It is a serious oath and barring a few knuckleheads, the Constitution is never out the window for them.

If I have faith in the American people, my faith in the men and women of the military is greater.

There are different parts of the oath:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

I was told in Boot Camp and Officer Candidate School, that we follow the bolded to a tee even if the Orders contradict the Constitution. And that is the quandary the military faces. Always has and Always will.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

I also do not think for a moment the current president has a plan. I do not think he has the intelligence of foresight needed to pull of a coup in the most revolution-resistance society in the world.

I don’t think so either, but he people like Rudi Guilliani whispering in ear…who knows for sure.

But we also have this:

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[ReaderT]

I also do not think for a moment the current president has a plan … He shows he has no sense of contingency for failure by his very actions.

He does have one thing which is a little worrying: he has half the country supporting him, and a sizable portion of those people now believe the election was fraudulent. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m conservative myself, but I’m not suspending Socratic reasoning - if there’s no proof that someone faked over 50,000 votes in PA, then Biden simply won the state.)

What’s worse is that Trump doesn’t even need to supply evidence. In Georgia, the Republican senators who are headed for a runoff just demanded that the (Republican) Secretary of State step down because the election must’ve been rigged… since they didn’t win. We’ll see what happens when push comes to shove - will these people finally turn on the president if there’s no proof? Or will they see some fake meme that’s floating around, and that will be proof enough for them?

 

[pnewton]

And that is the quandary the military faces. Always has and Always will.

Yes but the part that you did not bold qualifies the part you did. I will no deny it is a quandary, which is why the military itself would split in such a situation. So there is an easy out on January 20th. Without winning, the current president is no longer the president. The end of the term is automatic and cannot be extended by martial law. On that day, the Chief Justice will swear someone one in, and on that day the only orders this applies to will come from that person. I do not know that the Founders saw this as the safety valve it is turning out to be.

The other safety valve is the man himself. He must have people close to him to implement orders, and those close to him tend to become targets themselves, resulting in this crazy presidential turnover we have had. I cannot imagine anyone who has been able to rise through the ranks that would stand by him once they started working with him. So far, no one has stomached if for long.

 

[pnewton]

We’ll see what happens when push comes to shove - will these people finally turn on the president if there’s no proof?

The Georgia Secretary of State is not stepping down. Every day it seems more and more are choosing country over the current president. The GOP will have to depend on these people for leadership if things implode. Time will show the results of resistance. Those that defend the indefensible will become increasingly unelectable. I am hoping the GOP sees the danger of losing most of the party when the house goes up in flames so the Democrats do not completely sweep in.

It is fine to support these legal efforts, but they have to end in the court room. They have to end as the states certify their electors. They dang sure better end on December 14th. Anyone that continues past that point needs to be condemned and ostracized by all patriotic Americans.

As always, today is one day closer.

 

[ReaderT]

The Georgia Secretary of State is not stepping down. Every day it seems more and more are choosing country over the current president.

I know the Georgia SOS isn’t stepping down, but two just-as-important people are opposing him - the two US senators. That seems to be a microcosm of the Republican party right now: about half believe the voter fraud narrative and half are admitting defeat, but the “fraud” group includes very important and powerful people like the Attorney General, Secretary Pompeo, the Senate Majority Leader, etc.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

I know the Georgia SOS isn’t stepping down, but two just-as-important people are opposing him - the two US senators.

If there no runoff requirement, one of the US Senators would be in and the other out.

but the “fraud” group includes very important and powerful people like the Attorney General, Secretary Pompeo, the Senate Majority Leader, etc.

That is because the gig is up for some of them like Pompeo. Could be for Senate Majority Leader McConnell if the Georgia runoff turns blue for the Senators.

 

[pnewton]

I know the Georgia SOS isn’t stepping down, but two just-as-important people are opposing him - the two US senators.

Neither of these won outright and both face a run-off after the Electoral College. It will be interesting to watch how they handle that. Don’t get me started on McConnell. He is the most toxic Republican in the Senate. I know he will probably keep his position, but he will always be a handicap to the Senate Republicans.

Those that continue to refuse to acknowledge a sinking ship should not get to skipper the lifeboat at the last minute. I really want the GOP strong to serve as a check against President Biden.

 

[MikeInVA]

His Military

Dude, that is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. You need to read the oath of office taken by members of the armed forces, and stop implying that the president has some kind of personal claim on the military that will cause them to act illegally.

 

[MikeInVA]

I will no deny it is a quandary, which is why the military itself would split in such a situation.

Sorry, you need to stop implying that the military is some kind of king-maker. We are not some kind of failed state where the military wields political control. The military will continue to execute in accordance with the Constitution. TO continue to imply that the military would be involved with some kind of coup is reprehensible.

 

[pnewton]

Sorry, you need to stop implying that the military is some kind of king-maker.

I didn’t. I answered a hypothetical question. I have said repeatedly I do not see this happening and agree with you. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

 

[RidgeSprinter]

RidgeSprinter:

His Military

Dude, that is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. You need to read the oath of office taken by members of the armed forces, and stop implying that the president has some kind of personal claim on the military that will cause them to act illegally.

Selective post quoting I see. You missed post 26:

There are different parts of the oath:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

I was told in Boot Camp and Officer Candidate School, that we follow the bolded to a tee even if the Orders contradict the Constitution. And that is the quandary the military faces. Always has and Always will.

I was also told that the oath is in reverse order of importance.

 

[MikeInVA]

I was also told that the oath is in reverse order of importance.

Nonsense. Are you saying that following UCMJ is more important than defending the Constitution? Or that following orders is more important than defending the Constitution? Somebody told you wrong.

 

[MikeInVA]

Sorry if I misread your post. I just find any hypothetical talk about a military coup to be so wrong on so many levels that it makes me see red.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

Nonsense. Are you saying that following UCMJ is more important than defending the Constitution? Or that following orders is more important than defending the Constitution? Somebody told you wrong.

As an Officer and I gave an Order to a subordinate. The Subordinate is required my military law to obey it immediately whether he feels it is lawful or unlawful. There is a process to follow later if the he still feels the Order is unlawful. All Orders are to be considered lawful until proven otherwise. There is no option to not immediately disobey.

To Obey, or Not to Obey?​

So, to obey, or not to obey? It depends on the order. Military members disobey orders at their own risk. They also obey orders at their own risk. An order to commit a crime is unlawful. An order to perform a military duty, no matter how dangerous, is lawful as long as it doesn’t involve the commission of a crime.

Trump replaces all of the important Military Types with his loyalists.
He then signs EO declaring Martial Law.
Trump states to his Military Loyalists that he is declaring Martial Law in the interest, safety, and preservation of the Constitution.
He Orders the Secretary of Defense to take control of the Country. He has to obey if it is not a crime.
The Secretary of Defense passes the order down to the chain of command all the down to the lowest recruit. They have to obey if it is not a crime.
Even then if it is a perceived crime they still have to obey immediately and question it later.
The military is a dictatorship at every level of the chain of command.

 

[Feanor2]

Why? Other nations have changed presidents and we are not talking about something akin to WW2. He really does seems to be trying to find any desperate way to hang onto power now and I would say once he’s gone that will be remembered. Even those who in your nation support him right now fervently will cool down once he goes, he has an unique talent for creating drama and noise, but once he’s out of the arena people may be able to think again and consider whether his approach has yielded more good fruit than bad.
[/quote]

You are pretty optimistic there Jharek!!

 

[billsherman]

He Orders the Secretary of Defense to take control of the Country. He has to obey if it is not a crime.
The Secretary of Defense passes the order down to the chain of command all the down to the lowest recruit. They have to obey if it is not a crime.

What you just described is the definition of treason.

There is no role - ever - for the military in the political process. None. Ever.

 

[Feanor2]

It’s all just Trump drama.

Setting himself up for his future as the top rightist media figure.