Truth in a Restaurant

[Seamus]

Philip P:

New York, … a city of 8,000,000.

You forgot to mention the millions of us who weren’t counted in the last census as residents of the city but who nonetheless enter the city each day to work, shop, worship, etc.

For what it’s worth, I forgive you for overlooking the tunnel rats.

 

[Philip_P]

Seamus:

You forgot to mention the millions of us who weren’t counted in the last census as residents of the city but who nonetheless enter the city each day to work, shop, worship, etc.

For what it’s worth, I forgive you for overlooking the tunnel rats.

Yes, good point

 

[Philip_P]

Seamus:

You forgot to mention the millions of us who weren’t counted in the last census as residents of the city but who nonetheless enter the city each day to work, shop, worship, etc.

Completely OT, but I’m always surprised at the number of people from outside the city who come in to worship. There are people who regularly come to my parish who are from NJ, Long Island, Westchester, not to mention parts of the city pretty far removed from the neighborhood.

 

[Lance]

Philip P:

In New York, the police protect everyone regardless of nationality. Apparently, though, we only count American deaths in Iraq.

540 people murdered in a city of 8,000,000. Yeah, I feel pretty safe. Shall we ask the average resident of Baghdad how safe she feels?

Yes, and while we are at it lets ask them how safe they felt under Sadam. Lets ask the Kurds and the Shites also. And get off you high horse about how ‘we’ count deaths in Iraq. I am the person who posted the figures and since I am not British royalty there is no ‘we’ only me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Philip P:

In New York, the police protect everyone regardless of nationality. Apparently, though, we only count American deaths in Iraq.

540 people murdered in a city of 8,000,000. Yeah, I feel pretty safe. Shall we ask the average resident of Baghdad how safe she feels?

I notice you have a tendency to ask how this person feels, or how those people feel – do you actually know anyone who lives in Baghdad?

 

[Philip_P]

Lance:

And get off you high horse about how ‘we’ count deaths in Iraq. I am the person who posted the figures and since I am not British royalty there is no ‘we’ only me.

Ok then, why do you only count American deaths?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Philip P:

Ok then, why do you only count American deaths?

This is a holier-than-thou approach.

We count all deaths. But when we discuss combat operations, there are categories. When discussing one category, do we commit some kind of sin in your eyes if we don’t digress to pull in all the other categories?

There are Americans murdered by terrorists.

There are Iraqi security forces murdered by terrorists

There are Iraqi civilians murdered by terrorists.

There are terrorists killed by American and Iraqi forces.

And there are a some Iraqi citizens accidentaly killed by American and Iraqi forces.

And finally, there are Americans and Iraqis killed by the normal hazards of the situation – everything from traffic accidents to detonation of dud munitions.

 

[Philip_P]

vern humphrey:

When discussing one category, do we commit some kind of sin in your eyes if we don’t digress to pull in all the other categories?

If we’re going to discuss relative safety of Baghdad vs NYC, as Lance has attemted to do, then yes, you should include these categories.

I’ll stand by what I said. A fine police force, such as the NYPD, is far more effective at preventing terrorism and maintaining public safety than soldiers and tanks.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Philip P:

If we’re going to discuss relative safety of Baghdad vs NYC, as Lance has attemted to do, then yes, you should include these categories.

I’ll stand by what I said. A fine police force, such as the NYPD, is far more effective at preventing terrorism and maintaining public safety than soldiers and tanks.

The strength with which a conviction is held is no measure of its validity.

Lacking experience and training in these matters, you are simply wrong.

 

[AmyS]

Balance:

I’d consider us to be our own country which will do things our way who won’t be dragooned into joining America’s rampant imperialism.

That’s my two cents, for what it’s worth, and there’s no offence intended.

You lost me when you said this…

Offense was taken…

Feel better?

 

[AmyS]

MikeWM:

In 132 countries, according to the Wikipedia, which is in the right ballpark. That’s a majority of countries

Mike

Wikipedia really doesn’t check there facts. i am dealing with them at my job right now. They don’t even stand by what is on their site. I have little respect for them.

 

[AmyS]

grin I don’t know - whatever the cost, it’d be worth it.
A wee green haven - “God’s own country” - a country looking ahead, not backwards, a country growing more and more into itself by the day. My turangawaewae - my place to stand tall.

I get you now…

 

[AmyS]

Philip P:

It’s a huge drag on my country - morally, politically, and economically. What little justification existed for the imperial policy ended with the collapse of the USSR. We should be slashing our nuclear stockpiles and shrinking our global military footprint.

You realize that this country gives FAR more money to “social programs” than military ones? And, how do you feel about that… What about the money going to illegal immigration (these things affect us morally, politically, and economically)

 

[MikeWM]

AmyS:

Wikipedia really doesn’t check there facts. i am dealing with them at my job right now. They don’t even stand by what is on their site. I have little respect for them.

I’ve made my position on Wikipedia quite clear before. I don’t use it as a unique source, but if it has something right, it is a convenient place to point people at.

Given no-one has come up with a ‘better’ figure than 132, I’ll continue to assume 132 is about right.

Mike

 

[Philip_P]

AmyS:

You realize that this country gives FAR more money to “social programs” than military ones? And, how do you feel about that… What about the money going to illegal immigration (these things affect us morally, politically, and economically)

The official budget shows military spending about even with non-military, and that’s including non-discretionary funds.

If you look at only discretionary funds, military spending is at the top. What exactly are we getting for all that money?

And as far as illegal immigration - I’m all for legalizing them. Let everyone who wants to work do it legally. Why let unscrupulous employers get away with exploiting workers and cheating the system?

 

[Philip_P]

MikeWM:

I’ve made my position on Wikipedia quite clear before. I don’t use it as a unique source, but if it has something right, it is a convenient place to point people at.

Given no-one has come up with a ‘better’ figure than 132, I’ll continue to assume 132 is about right.

Mike

I think it really ultimately depends on what you’re trying to do. If you’re just out to prove or disprove a point, it’s a terrible source. If you are sincerely trying to research a subject, it’s a great guide to finding sources you might not find on your own. I often jump right to the bottom of the wiki article to see where it links to and go from there.

Not so good for “winning” an argument, perhaps, but pretty cool as a learning tool

 

[mlchance]

Matt25:

Is that what Jesus believed?

Revelation 19:11-19:

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

Balance:

I’d consider us to be our own country which will do things our way who won’t be dragooned into joining America’s rampant imperialism.

Time for some borrowed sarcasm:

walstan:

Now that’s what I like to hear, toleration, reasoned argument, good manners and an acknowledgement of others point of view: very democratic…

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mjdonnelly]

MikeWM:

I’ve made my position on Wikipedia quite clear before. I don’t use it as a unique source, but if it has something right, it is a convenient place to point people at.

Given no-one has come up with a ‘better’ figure than 132, I’ll continue to assume 132 is about right.

Mike

Really, it looks to be about 31 with bases, then about another 7 with buildings or small pieces of property.

Scroll down to DOD inventory, then under the subtopic Overseas, also for the actual bases, under Service Inventory, look under the individual services overseas. This is from: Base Structure Report (Listing of Facilities) Fiscal Year 2005 .

 

[MikeWM]

mjdonnelly:

Really, it looks to be about 31 with bases, then about another 7 with buildings or small pieces of property.

Scroll down to DOD inventory, then under the subtopic Overseas, also for the actual bases, under Service Inventory, look under the individual services overseas. This is from: Base Structure Report (Listing of Facilities) Fiscal Year 2005 .

It’s not that easy though, as this article explains:

monthlyreview.org/0302editr.htm

According to the Defense Department’s Base Structure Report, 2001, the United States currently has overseas military installations in thirty-eight countries and separate territories. If military bases in U.S. territories/possessions outside the fifty states and the District of Columbia are added, it rises to forty-four. This number is extremely conservative, however, since it does not include important strategic forward bases, even some of those in which the United States maintains substantial numbers of troops, such as Saudi Arabia, Kosovo, and Bosnia.

etc.

The true answer probably depends on the description of ‘base’ and ‘country’, neither of which are altogether trivial. Probably 132 comes from the loosest such definition. Even so, it’s a very large number, whatever it may actually be.

Mike