Truth in a Restaurant

[Balance]

Lance:

I don’t see much difference in hating our policies and hating us, but that is just the way I feel. Kind of like telling you neighbor, “I don’t hate you but I hate the way you conduct your life, I hate the way you spend your money, I hate the way you keep your yard and I hate what you do for a living, other than that lets be good buddies.”

well…

are you serious? what about a basic Catholic line of thought - hate the sin, love the sinner.

I’m thinking of one of my best friends, a man I consider to be my brother, a man I love dearly - but who lives a very different lifestyle to me. Uses drugs, sleeps with his girlfriend, has some very different religious and philosphical views. He knows that I am, in many ways, opposed to his actions and beliefs, but also knows I love him - him not what he does or believes
There’s a huge diffence between saying I don’t like what the **American government ** stands for and what America as a country is.

 

[Balance]

mary bobo:

Who are these relative and friends? What companies?

are you serious? does the American press not report this sort of thing like the New Zealand and Australian press does?

 

[mary_bobo]

Balance:

are you serious? does the American press not report this sort of thing like the New Zealand and Australian press does?

No need to be nasty. Since you mentioned that the companies that got the contracts in NO were political, I thought you might know what companies they were. I have family living there. Just asking or were you just bloviating?

 

[mary_bobo]

It’s a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment. In my experience, they are the kind of managers who spout buzz-words and ‘trendy’ ideas for how to get work done, ‘team bonding exercises’ and all that nonsense. It’s a generalisation though, and probably not altogether fair.

Appreciate your honesty.

Mike

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Balance:

are you serious? does the American press not report this sort of thing like the New Zealand and Australian press does?

Yes, they do. We just want to know if you know. Do you know?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Balance:

I take offence at this too… I don’t hate America - been there, like it, nice country, nice people. I do however, bear a great animosity towards America’s foreign policy and its implememtation of that policy. to say that is not to say I hate America, and to suggest otherwise is , yes, ignorant.

Balance:

Which of the US foreign policies do you hate?

Is it the policy that freed the Afghanis from the regime which destroyed the 2,000 year old Bamiyan Buddhas and killed women for the crime of being raped?

Is it the policy that’s dismantled most of the Leadership Cadre of Al-Quieda so that the organization hasn’rt been able to mount the huge attacks against the US everyone thought they would perpetrate during the last 5 years?

Is it the policy that ended the Oil for Corruption deal that allowed Jacques Chirac, Kofi Anon and several nations of the UN to profit so long as Saddam Hussein was allowed to stay in power?

Is it the policy that removed the murderous dictator who was having girls as young as 11 gang-raped to death and boys as young as 7 tortured to death in front of their families?

Is it the policy that removed the man who slaughtered some 500,000 Iraqis during the 1990’s and nearly 800,000 during his reign of terror?

Is it the policy that’s given the Iraqis their first democratic government ever?

Is it the policy that resulted in Muammar Quadaffi agreeing to turn over the people who blew up Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerby, Scotland and in his agreeing to UN insppections of his chemical and biological weapons?

Is it the policy that resulted in Syria leaving Lebanon after 30 years of Occupation and Oppression?

Or, Is it the policy that caused the Arab Isamic government of Sudan to make peace with and to stop slaughtering the Christians and Animists of Southern Sudan?

Which one of those are you objecting to?

Which one of those do you think you could do better?

MIchael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

vern humphrey:

I think there are some people who claim we can reverse it – but I’m not sure. I can’t hear them because every time they say it, the smoke detector in my undershorts goes off.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Vern:

1995 - US Military training facilities at Riyadh, Saudi Arabia - 17 injured.
1996 - US Military at Kobar Towers - 19 killed.
1998 - US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - 258 killed & 5,000 wounded.
2000 - USS Cole at Aden, Yemen - 17 killed, 39 wounded.
9/11/2001 - New York City, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania over 3,000 Americans and others slaughtered in 4 coordinated attacks.

What happened when the US ran from Beirut after the bombings there in 1983 was almost as bad.

Islamists will attack at the first sign a weakness, and keep attacking until they are physically stoped, then they will propose a “Hudna” (A temperary Truce so they can rebuild and rearm), which they will break at the first pretense.

The Islamists are dangerous and serious adversaries. Anyne who takes them lightly, or who thinks they aren’t serious about taking over the world and forcing all of us to submit to Islam is in for an unpleasant surprise.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Mike:

A priest is a man who has given up the good of Marriage in order to serve God as a cellibate priest. I suspect that you’re just someone who doesn’t like the military and has no idea that you couldn’t even think of writing what you’re writing if your freedoms hadn’t been secured by some soldiers who were willing to risk their lives to secure them for you and for me…

MikeWM:

So, your answer is that a priest shouldn’t advise people on marital matters, for example?

At the same time, most Marital advice is advice on how to learn how to relate to each other and to stay committed to each other even when one or the other doesn’t feel like it. Since most priests go through that, they are eminently qualified to comment on what it takes to stay committed and to keep relating even when one doesn’t particularly feel like it.

Remember, Priests are, so to speak, married to the Church.

For your knowledgeable people - The first one is named Stephanie Habelow who never spent a day in the millitary and who has NO credentials!

The second OPINION PIECE is from Robert L. Jamieson, Jr., a Journalist with NO credentials as a Psycgologist or Social Worker! and, The area he reports from had these loving comments to say to an Disabled Iraq War Veteran during an Independence Day Day Parade:

*Walking the parade route with his mom, younger siblings and politically conservative friends, Jason heard words from the crowd that felt like a thousand daggers to the heart.

**“Baby killer!”

“Murderer!”

“Boooo!”**

To understand why the reaction of strangers hurt so much, you must read what the young man had written in a letter from Iraq before he was disabled in an ambush:

“I really miss being in the states. Some of the American public have no idea how much freedom costs and who the people are that pay that awful price. I think sometimes people just see us as nameless and faceless and not really as humans. … A good portion of us are actually scared that when we come home, for those of us who make it back, that there will be protesters waiting for us and that is scary.”*

papillonsartpalace.com/vetseran.htm

As a member of the Society of friends, Rosa Covington Packard, has also never served a day in the military.

Naturally, all of the above sources are opposed to the Invasion of Iraq and the removal of a madman who was torturing little buys and girls to death in front of their parents’ faces.

MikeWM:

It’s not difficult to find people knowledgable people who believe military training is like brainwashing, by the way.

It’s a reasonable point of view, whether you agree with it or not.

Mike

Mike, after spending nearly 1-1/2 years of trying to convince Left-Wingers such as you that we had to invade Iraq to remove Hussein to stop the torture and slaughter of Innocents, and to keep him from continuing to pay for the slaughter of innocent women and children in Israel and elsewhere, and after seeing how far and how often eyeballs can roll in the back of “lefties’” heads, I was glad when President Bush convinced Congress that we had to remove Hussein in order to disarm him and to keep him from giving WMDs to terrorists so they could use them against us and our friends.

I’m sorry, but I think the only ones who have been brainwashed here are the ones who’ve allowed their hatred of George W. Bush to keep them from seeing the the fact that 10,000’s of children who would have been tortured to death under Saddam Hussein won’t be tortured and that, since Bush has taken office, some 40 million people (including Lebanese) have tasted freedom who would never have had the slightest chance if he hadn’t have intervened in the affairs of the Muslim world.

Mark Chance served our country and risked his neck so we could be free. The appropriate attitude is one of gratitude, not to accuse the man of being brainwashed.

In Christ, Michael

 

[MikeWM]

Traditional Ang:

A priest is a man who has given up the good of Marriage in order to serve God as a cellibate priest. I suspect that you’re just someone who doesn’t like the military and has no idea that you couldn’t even think of writing what you’re writing if your freedoms hadn’t been secured by some soldiers who were willing to risk their lives to secure them for you and for me…

I don’t ‘like’ the military, no. They are a necessary evil. I am grateful to them for when they do the bad but necessary things, like protect us from Hitler, but as someone who values and cherishes human life, I’m not going to ‘like’ or ‘rejoice’ that there are people out there trained to kill other ordinary people who just so happen to have been born on the other side of an arbitrary borderline. Every one of the hairs on every one of our heads has been counted by God. I find all killing appalling, of the unborn, the disabled, or the average guy who just happens to be on the other side.

At the same time, most Marital advice is advice on how to learn how to relate to each other and to stay committed to each other even when one or the other doesn’t feel like it. Since most priests go through that, they are eminently qualified to comment on what it takes to stay committed and to keep relating even when one doesn’t particularly feel like it.

Remember, Priests are, so to speak, married to the Church.

I think you are preaching to the converted here. I have no problem with priests advising on aspects of life they haven’t personally experienced.

For your knowledgeable people - The first one is named Stephanie Habelow who never spent a day in the millitary and who has NO credentials!

Who quoted a ‘veteran’.

The second OPINION PIECE is from Robert L. Jamieson, Jr., a Journalist with NO credentials as a Psycgologist or Social Worker! and, The area he reports from had these loving comments to say to an Disabled Iraq War Veteran during an Independence Day Day Parade:

‘The area he reports from’? What has that to do with anything?

As a member of the Society of friends, Rosa Covington Packard, has also never served a day in the military.

Who quotes a military historian. He probably knows quite a bit.

I could post more quotes, but as I’ve said they are only a google away.

Naturally, all of the above sources are opposed to the Invasion of Iraq

So? We weren’t discussing that.

I’m sorry, but I think the only ones who have been brainwashed here are the ones who’ve allowed their hatred of George W. Bush to keep them from seeing the the fact that 10,000’s of children who would have been tortured to death under Saddam Hussein won’t be tortured and that, since Bush has taken office, some 40 million people (including Lebanese) have tasted freedom who would never have had the slightest chance if he hadn’t have intervened in the affairs of the Muslim world.

Again this has been dealt with to death elsewhere.

Mark Chance served our country and risked his neck so we could be free. The appropriate attitude is one of gratitude, not to accuse the man of being brainwashed.

As I stated in the first paragraph of this response, I am grateful to the military when they do necessary things. I’m not going to rejoice in them existing though, or be grateful that there are people walking around with knowledge of death and destruction, trained to kill people who are ideologically on another side.

I state one last time that I think teaching people to kill unquestioningly some other random guy who has been designated as an ‘enemy’ is against what comes naturally. Training someone to unquestioningly do something that doesn’t come naturally is a form of brainwashing in my book.

I’m not going to post any more on this thread, because with the amount of military-worship in the USA, it’s not going to go anywhere. So, everyone go wild with the ‘ah, you’ve conceded your point!’ posts that always creep out of the woodwork and obviously make people feel more secure in their beliefs. I haven’t conceded - but sometimes it is wise to know when not to fight, as I’m sure the military teach you.

Mike

 

[gilliam]

MikeWM:

I don’t ‘like’ the military, no. They are a necessary evil.

Gee, thanks. Let me know the next time the bad guys come gunning for you and you want to be protected.

dod.mil/home/images/2005review.jpg

 

[nan]

God bless America, land that I love.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Traditional Ang:

I think the only ones who have been brainwashed here are the ones who’ve allowed their hatred of George W. Bush to keep them from seeing the the fact that 10,000’s of children who would have been tortured to death under Saddam Hussein won’t be tortured and that, since Bush has taken office, some 40 million people (including Lebanese) have tasted freedom who would never have had the slightest chance if he hadn’t have intervened in the affairs of the Muslim world.

Yes. And those who have allowed their hatred to lead them into the lairs of opportunistic Al Queda cadres, where they are drugged, indoctrinated, and sent away to bomb civilian populations.

On a clear day, Michael, I have trouble distinguishing between the two groups of people who hate Bush. I am very amenable to having my eyes opened, however. Any thoughts on this?

 

[tamccrackine]

MikeWM:

I asked a question and you didn’t answer it directly, but instead said what you said. I asked you again.

Well, I’ve now given you three quotes from people who ‘do know what they are talking about’. There are many more just a google away. Are all those people calling you a liar too?

No it isn’t. The OP was about businessmen talking about ‘brainwashing’ in a bar somewhere and someone wanting to punch them out because of it. Was the person going to get a dictionary out to see if they were using the psychological definition of brainwashing or were just using the colloquial expression, before whacking them? I think not.

Given I’m not, I won’t, no.Mike

And, to me, you are as brainwashed as the businessmen in the OP trying to describe something, let alone critisize something, you OBVIOUSLY know nothing about, therefore you can’t reason your stance away. It’s plain and simple… you have NO first hand knowledge of what basic training is like- let alone WHY things are done or taught- therefore you don’t have a right to judge it. That’s what Mark and I are trying to show you. It’s very irritating to see someone that has no clue as to what they are talking about, pontificating horrors of it. I wouldn’t dare walk into a doctors operating room, hover over his shoulder while he’s performing an operation and tell him he’s brainwashed into believing that fiberoptics will show him what he needs to see and he can only cut this way or that while only using this instrument.

And as for a priest not being able to give a married couple guidance… under that same reasoning, we can’t take Jesus’ advice. He wasn’t married. So what does he know? Oh that’s right… something about the grace of God being breathed onto the Apostles by Jesus which is passed on through each ordination. (By the way… my priest here is married, has four grown sons… he was an Episcopalian priest before his conversion and petitioning Rome) Doesn’t negate the wonderful marriage advice I received from other non-married (to a woman) priests… (in my view, priests ARE married… their bride is the Church)

As for the natural fear being “brainwashed” out of people… when you’re driving a car, you are taught (trained) how to react should a car in front of you spin out. People are taught certain things in their life so they aren’t ahem paralyzed by fear so the situation doesn’t cause death. Same thing with an EMT. You’ve heard of the expression “I don’t know what came over me… my training took over.”

You are right though, you can google all day long for people that were unhappy in the military. And as long as they have people like you that will listen to them… they’ll be around. Pretty much to the amusement of people like me that the only thing we can do is shake our head and laugh at the futility of it.

 

[Matt25]

gilliam:

Gee, thanks. Let me know the next time the bad guys come gunning for you and you want to be protected.

Violence is a consequence of original sin. If man had not fallen then there would be no armies. You can believe armies to be necessary but you cannot say that war is a good thing. If there was no aggression to defend onself against there is no need for self defence.

Are you saying war and armies are a necessary virtue?

 

[AmyS]

Balance:

well…

are you serious? what about a basic Catholic line of thought - hate the sin, love the sinner.

I’m thinking of one of my best friends, a man I consider to be my brother, a man I love dearly - but who lives a very different lifestyle to me. Uses drugs, sleeps with his girlfriend, has some very different religious and philosphical views. He knows that I am, in many ways, opposed to his actions and beliefs, but also knows I love him - him not what he does or believes
There’s a huge diffence between saying I don’t like what the **American government ** stands for and what America as a country is.

Great comparison. Thanks again!

 

[AmyS]

MikeWM:

Isn’t a part of proper brainwashing the fact that you don’t know you’ve been brainwashed?

Nevertheless, moulding someone so that they will unquestioningly do something that isn’t natural, as required in the military, is brainwashing in my book.

Mike

I was reading all this post of yours having to do with this subject, and all I could think is… Sounds like our Universities, and Colleges… They are very liberal. You are required to take liberal classes, and to write on liberal subjects. Now THAT is brainwashing…

I have never met a soldier that thought that way of what they are doing. What you are saying is such an insult to them. And, leads to the conclusion that they don’t know what they are doing.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Ani Ibi:

Yes. And those who have allowed their hatred to lead them into the lairs of opportunistic Al Queda cadres, where they are drugged, indoctrinated, and sent away to bomb civilian populations.

On a clear day, Michael, I have trouble distinguishing between the two groups of people who hate Bush. I am very amenable to having my eyes opened, however. Any thoughts on this?

Ani:

I don’t know how much help I can be to you there.

Although I think the Bush-haters who believe the “Theft of Florida” was worse than the slaughter of 3,100+ of their fellow citizens on 9/11/2001 have broken moral compasses and couldn’t be more wrong, I just can imagine any of them strapping bombs on children and then sending them to slaughter other people’s children for any reason whatsoever. And, I could never see them seducing and raping some naive girls and then using some sick “Family Honor” System to give them the choice between “restoring their ‘Family Honor’” by becoming a homicide bombers and slaughtering innocent civilians of being beating or stabbed to death by their male relatives.

One problem with lefties is the inability to see the difference between the slaughter of civilians by terrorists and the the killing of those terrorists in order to prevent the continued slaughter of the INNOCENT. They really believe that all killing, even that done in self-defense, is wrong.

At the same time, most of them hate this country because they’ve never heard anything good about this country - They’ve never heard about the America that defeated Fascism Italy, Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan, ending the Holocaust, while keeping Britain afloat and the USSR supplied during their darkest days. They never heard about the America that then fed and kept both foe and friend fed, warmed and clothed for the 2 years after the war They’ve never heard about the America that created Democracies in the ashes of Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperialist Japan (they thought those countries always were Democraies) at the same time that the USSR was stripping everything from those countries and taking it back home (their leftest professors never told them about that). They’ve never hear about the America that largely funded, and still largely funds the UN, not only paying a disproportionate shaere of the bills, but giving the UN land and a building rent-free in the middle of one of the most expensive cities in the world (they’ve only heard about when the UN has squeeled because we refused to pay some of those dues in protest). They’ve never heard about the America that fought a war to end slavery, or seen the country whose citizens risked their lives to show solidarity with Dr. King and the blacks of America and to bring down segregation and to end the evil of Racism.

Maybe if their professors had told them about these things instead of telling them about what a terrible place this is, “Lefties” might have some appreciation for America and might not hate this place so much, Or, Maybe if, instead of going straight to college, young people did a couple of years of “National Service” (volunteer service taking care of seniors, working in soup kitchens, tutoring in juvenile facilities or military service), they might be so ready to believe the “America is terrible” line from their lefist professors…

But that’s the topic for a completely different thread.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Matt25:

Violence is a consequence of original sin. If man had not fallen then there would be no armies. You can believe armies to be necessary but you cannot say that war is a good thing. If there was no aggression to defend onself against there is no need for self defence.

Are you saying war and armies are a necessary virtue?

Matt:

The problem is that man is fallen, and that sometimes we are given the choice between WAR and things that are EVEN WORSE. Contrary to the slogan, “It is really better to be Dead than Red!” and,War was what finally ended SLAVERY (at least in America), stopped the genocide of Jews in Europe and ended Hitler’s Reign of Terror, and guaranteed freedom to people as diverse as the people of Europe, those of Asia (except those living under the rule of the Communists), and those of Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon.

The Ford and Carter Administrations couldn’t intervene military to stop the killing in Cambodia and Vietnam, where over 200 million Cambodians died at the hands of the Khmer Rouge and another 100,000 died in inhumane “re-education camps” run by Vietnamese Communists and in reprisals by the same Vietnamese Communists.

And, the Clinton Administration’s refusal to intervene or to support UN intervention lead to the slaughter of 800,000 in Rwanda, 4 million in the Congo and 2 million in Southern Sudan.

There really are things worse than military intervention.

The problem is recognizing when you’re up against those situations.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Philip_P]

Traditional Ang:

Matt:

The problem is that man is fallen, and that sometimes we are given the choice between WAR and things that are EVEN WORSE. Contrary to the slogan, “It is really better to be Dead than Red!” and,War was what finally ended SLAVERY (at least in America),

The British managed to do it without going to war.

There may have been other ways to end slavery without Civil War. Playing the what-if game is always dangerous, but at the very least it’s important to keep in mind the fact that simply because things *did *happen a certain way does not mean they *must *have. Perhaps there was a way to end slavery without war. We cannot say that war was the only way.

stopped the genocide of Jews in Europe and ended Hitler’s Reign of Terror,

It would be more accurate to say that *ending *the war stopped the genocide and Hitler. While the war was on-going, not much effort was spent toward saving the Jews. Furthermore, the rise of Hitler was itself inextricably tied to WWI and the harsh retribution forced upon Germany following that war. A just peace following WWI may well have made the rise of Hitler less likely.

The Ford and Carter Administrations couldn’t intervene military to stop the killing in Cambodia and Vietnam, where over 200 million Cambodians died at the hands of the Khmer Rouge and another 100,000 died in inhumane “re-education camps” run by Vietnamese Communists and in reprisals by the same Vietnamese Communists.

If you’re going to be counting numbers, you also need to count those that died in the French and American wars in Vietnam. What business did the French have imposing a colonial system in SE Asia, and what were we doing supporting such system? Might not history have been different if we had pushed for SE Asian independence, rather than aligning ourselves with the Colonial powers (and, as a consequence, helping the Communists’ claim that they were fighting for independence a self-determination)?

Furthermore, despite dropping more bombs than in all of WWII, we were not able to “save” Vietnam. Military action sometimes simply is not capable of achieving certain results, no matter how many bombs and guns are called in.

And, the Clinton Administration’s refusal to intervene or to support UN intervention lead to the slaughter of 800,000 in Rwanda, 4 million in the Congo and 2 million in Southern Sudan.

Here I agree - the administration should have supported the UN intervention here. The war could have been prevented. I don’t think this is in the same category as your other examples, though. The presence of peacekeeping forces is a different situation than invasion and warfare, as in WWII, Civil War, and Vietnam.

There really are things worse than military intervention.

Sure there are. Many times, they make military action more likely. To go back to a case you yourself brought up - the condiions forced upon Germany after WWI probably led to WWII.

 

[Philip_P]

Traditional Ang:

Bush-haters who believe the “Theft of Florida” was worse than the slaughter of 3,100+ of their fellow citizens on 9/11/2001

Can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it’s a question of measuring ourselves against our own standards. The claim that some believe the Florida voting irregularities was worse than 9/11 is nonsensical - what do the two have to do with each other? Florida was a problem because our electoral system broke down, embarrassing us at home and abroad because the US is supposed to be one of the world’s premier electoral democracies. Having the loser of the popular vote nonetheless win the presidency, and having credible allegations of voter fraud being made, was an embarrassment by our standards as an electoral democracy. There’s no 9/11 connection.

I just can imagine any of them strapping bombs on children and then sending them to slaughter other people’s children for any reason whatsoever

Oh dear, I hope I’m misreading you hear and you’re not seriously suggesting anyone who voted against Bush is a potential suicide bomber!

One problem with lefties is the inability to see the difference between the slaughter of civilians by terrorists and the the killing of those terrorists in order to prevent the continued slaughter of the INNOCENT. They really believe that all killing, even that done in self-defense, is wrong.

Again, it’s our own standards we should be judging our actions by, not the terrorists. Of course it’s deeply wrong to slaughter innocent civilians. That doesn’t give us license to act as we please. Look at criticisms of Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, etc. The argument is *not *“we like terrorists” but rather “this is inconsistent with American values.”

Torture is not American. Arbitrary imprisonment is not American. The fact that terrorists commit evil acts does not change this.

At the same time, most of them hate this country…
[snip]
…the country whose citizens risked their lives to show solidarity with Dr. King and the blacks of America and to bring down

I’m sorry you think that anyone who opposes the Bush administration hates America. I certainly don’t. But given the America of Richard Nixon vs the America of Dr. King, I’d rather see the one of Dr. King prevail.

George Bush is America, true, but so is Dan Berrigan. So is Dorothy Day. So are the millions of Americans who opposed the Iraq war, and the millions who did not vote for Bush, and the millions who did vote for Bush but who do not believe we should be torturing and arbitrarily imprisoning people.

Maybe we have different visions of America. I hardly think that excuses calling someone whose vision differs from you and “America Hater.”