Tuam Mother and Baby Home in Ireland: the Trouble With the Septic Tank Story (Story is a Hoax)

[DavidFallon]

Explain to me how allegations of other events justify the accusations of the Tuam nuns?

Explain how the AP and the Irish times retracted their irresponsible and vicious mal reporting about Tuam

irishtimes.com/news/politics/sound-and-fury-overwhelm-rational-political-debate-1.1831900

Explain how the nuns caused all those diseases?

sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/tuam-death-records-full-list-revealed-mass-grave-septic-tank

So please next time you say there are witness for this and that in order to try and justify your inner desire to accuse these nuns, know you are only fooling yourself. You are not fooling anyone else unless they want to be fooled.

So please explain how the Tuam nuns manufactured disease such as Measles, Meningitis, etc?

Explain

Bottom line is that you are trying to bring in other cases to try and prove the non-existant guilt you want to accuse these nuns of.

Shame shame shame

Again, I have said that the initial reporting that 800 bodies were in a septic tank was wrong… I don’t know what you mean in asking me to explain how AP and the Irish Times have retracted any reporting… it is accepted by everyone, even hardcore secularists, that the initial reporting was wrong. I presume that AP and the Irish Times have issued corrections on the initial sensationalist reporting. If not then that is unacceptable.

Obviously no-one thinks nuns can manufacture diseases. The concern on the part of those who want an investigation into Tuam is that they may not have given children as much care as they could have, and such care could have aided in preventing some deaths. Some people point out as the Nuns were societal authority figures, they were in a position of influence, and it is doubtful if they would have let more cases of malnutrition be listed as the cause of death than those which are already listed.

I am not fooling myself about anything. I am saying I am concerned about Tuam and feel that an inquiry is necessary as many reliable sources say the infant mortality rate is too high. I do not want these nuns to be guilty of anything, I want to know the truth. I mention circumstances in other homes, as a broader debate has started around mother and children homes which is interlinked with Tuam, and I feel like calling Tuam a hoax is insensitive to women who are coming forwarded and alleging mistreatment in other homes

 

[Milasol]

Again, I have said that the initial reporting that 800 bodies were in a septic tank was wrong… I don’t know what you mean in asking me to explain how AP and the Irish Times have retracted any reporting… it is accepted by everyone, even hardcore secularists, that the initial reporting was wrong. I presume that AP and the Irish Times have issued corrections on the initial sensationalist reporting. If not then that is unacceptable.

Obviously no-one thinks nuns can manufacture diseases. The concern on the part of those who want an investigation into Tuam is that they may not have given children as much care as they could have, and such care could have aided in preventing some deaths. Some people point out as the Nuns were societal authority figures, they were in a position of influence, and it is doubtful if they would have let more cases of malnutrition be listed as the cause of death than those which are already listed.

And you do know that there are witnesses that began to emerge asking for support for those nuns and nobody helped them?

Position of influence?

They were poor nuns given the care of so many babies and you are now judging them based on what the secular media says they did. I find that abhorrent.

I would be feeling very very concern about presuming without facts.

And tell me if you are so concern about these babies, why aren’t you concern about the other places in Ireland that suffered the same rate of mortality as in this home?

 

[DavidFallon]

Are you sure?

Many of the more shocking claims made about Ireland’s nun-run Magdalene Laundries, in movies, books and newspaper articles, were called into question by the Irish government’s exhaustive report published last year. The report found not a single case of sexual abuse in the entire history of the laundries. It also found that the vast majority of the girls who lived and worked in the laundries were not physically punished. ‘There is no escaping the fact that the report jars with popular perceptions’, said the Irish Times. Furthermore, one of the most widely read books about the laundries - Don’t Ever Tell by Kathy O’Beirne, one of the bestselling Irish books of the twenty-first century which has been widely cited in commentary on Irish Catholic abuse - was exposed as phoney: Ms O’Beirne was never actually in a laundry. Mainstream media coverage of Ireland’s past frequently gets the facts wildly wrong. ‘Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools’, said the UK Independent in 2009 when the Irish government published its extensive report on the abuse of boys in Catholic-run schools. Clearly the Indie hadn’t read the report, for if it had it would surely have noticed that in fact there were 68 claims of rape, not all of them proven, between the period of 1914 and 1999. Quite how 68 accusations of rape became ‘thousands were raped’ is anyone’s guess.

Whenever the exaggerations and myths about Ireland’s past are exposed, the same thing is said: okay, these might have been lies but they were good lies, because they got people talking about the history of Catholic abuse in Ireland. When the 2013 government report on the Magdalene Laundries called into question the claims made in various films and books, campaigners told the Irish Times that ‘the role such [movies and books] played in highlighting the issue justified any artistic embellishment’. When questions were raised about Kathy O’Beirne’s account of life in a Magdalene Laundry, one of her defenders said she had at least ‘kept the issue of the Magdalene asylums in the public eye’ and her book had been ‘helpful’ to sufferers of abuse. No doubt someone will now say the same about Tuam: ‘Yes, yes, 800 babies might not have been found in a septic tank, but at least we are all taking about the mistreatment of single mums and their kids in old Ireland.’ How many ‘good lies’ have to be told about Ireland’s past before they just become lies? If as many myths were spread about by a government in relation to a war or something, there would be outrage, demands for an inquiry; why is it okay, then, to promote half-truths, non-facts and embellishments about the Irish Catholic Church?

I am also very upset about the book written by Kathy O’Beirne, and about “Artistic embellishments” regarding the Magdalene Laundries - that is just making profit from slander. I have not read that Independent Article but it sounds ridiculous.

I would be careful however about calling the Magdalene Laundry inqiury “exhaustive”. It has been described as almost every reliable independent source as being fundamentally flawed, and as not giving proper regard to the accounts of survivors. It seems that the Government is going to possibly include it in the inquiry being established into Mother and Children Homes, as it is accepted that it was not properly done.

I hope such “Artistic Embellishments” do not happen with Mother and Children Homes, there was already been enough sensationalist reporting at the outset. My concern is though, I feel like I have read a lot of Articles from reliable sources from women who claim to have been subjected to extreme mistreatment, and they do not seem to be embellishing. That is why I feel uneasy about using the word hoax in this area

 

[Milasol]

Again, I have said that the initial reporting that 800 bodies were in a septic tank was wrong… I don’t know what you mean in asking me to explain how AP and the Irish Times have retracted any reporting… it is accepted by everyone, even hardcore secularists, that the initial reporting was wrong. I presume that AP and the Irish Times have issued corrections on the initial sensationalist reporting. If not then that is unacceptable.

I also find it ironic that they falsely accused the Church for not reporting these babies’s deaths.

That was also found to be false.

So we have the septic tank lie
The reporting of death lie
The mortality rate lie
The so-called witnesses lie

Oh lovely…

 

[Milasol]

That is why I feel uneasy about using the word hoax in this area

You are too eager to presume guilt of these nuns WITHOUT proof whatsoever…

That says it all.

I would try and reflect on it because ultimately you will be judged alone.

The media won’t be there, the secular world won’t be there…

And I really do find poor taste in trying to bring in other unproven cases to justify this one.
That is quite low if you ask me.

Bottom line is that there is no proof of wrongdoing
The initial accusations are proven to be false
There are witnesses that say how the nuns asked for help that was never provided

 

[DavidFallon]

And you do know that there are witnesses that began to emerge asking for support for those nuns and nobody helped them?

Position of influence?

They were poor nuns given the care of so many babies and you are now judging them based on what the secular media says they did. I find that abhorrent.

I would be feeling very very concern about presuming without facts.

And tell me if you are so concern about these babies, why aren’t you concern about the other places in Ireland that suffered the same rate of mortality as in this home?

I am concerned about other homes, and am glad that they will be included in the inquiry. However I am more concerned about homes run by Catholic Orders, as I have not seen allegations in other homes that women were denied medical care as a punishment, or witheld painkillers during birth when they were available, or were denied stitching after birth,

The nuns were clearly in a position of influence. Of course they spent most of their time working in an underesourced home, but they were part of the Catholic Church - which was a massively powerful organisation in ireland. One of the Articles I posted above details how a bishop was listened to by the prime minister when the bishop was objecting to a home being removed from Catholic control by a doctor when the children were being allowed to die from easily preventable conditions! The next year the mortality rate was a fraction of what it was. Yet the prime minister still thought of restoring it to the previous control.

I don’t know why you say I am relying on false witnesses, I haven’t posted any sources with false witnesses. I am not aware of how the story of Philomena is false, perhaps you can explain.

You seem to find the secular media unreliable. I feel that is painting with far too broad a brush. How can you get a reliable picture of what is happening in the world without relying on independent broadsheets? I am not jumping with attacks on anyone, merely raising valid concerns which come from solid foundations.

In any case I have set out my concerns. You clearly disagree. I do not wish to get into a protracted argument so will stop here. I have said my piece, and I do not feel that anyone is doing the Church favours by saying this is a hoax and that women who are coming forward are false witnesses

 

[DavidFallon]

You are too eager to presume guilt of these nuns WITHOUT proof whatsoever…

That says it all.

I would try and reflect on it because ultimately you will be judged alone.

The media won’t be there, the secular world won’t be there…

And I really do find poor taste in trying to bring in other unproven cases to justify this one.
That is quite low if you ask me.

Bottom line is that there is no proof of wrongdoing
The initial accusations are proven to be false
There are witnesses that say how the nuns asked for help that was never provided

I don’t understand about what you mean about me saying things and not having proof… did you not read the links I posted? As I said to you previously, I am not trying to prove anything in relation to Tuam by relying on other cases. As I said there is a broader debate going on, and saying Tuam is a hoax is insensitive to women who are coming forward.

I am confident that I will not be judged to have sinned for raising my concerns that people are doing my Church a disfavour by trying to discredit the testimonies of women who said they were mistreated.

As I have said, you clearly disagree with me and I do not want a long argument and I have said my piece, so I will not continue arguing.

 

[Milasol]

I am concerned about other homes, and am glad that they will be included in the inquiry. However I am more concerned about homes run by Catholic Orders, as I have not seen allegations in other homes that women were denied medical care as a punishment, or witheld painkillers during birth when they were available, or were denied stitching after birth,

The nuns were clearly in a position of influence. Of course they spent most of their time working in an underesourced home, but they were part of the Catholic Church - which was a massively powerful organisation in ireland. One of the Articles I posted above details how a bishop was listened to by the prime minister when the bishop was objecting to a home being removed from Catholic control by a doctor when the children were being allowed to die from easily preventable conditions! The next year the mortality rate was a fraction of what it was. Yet the prime minister still thought of restoring it to the previous control.

I don’t know why you say I am relying on false witnesses, I haven’t posted any sources with false witnesses. I am not aware of how the story of Philomena is false, perhaps you can explain.

You seem to find the secular media unreliable. I feel that is painting with far too broad a brush. How can you get a reliable picture of what is happening in the world without relying on independent broadsheets? I am not jumping with attacks on anyone, merely raising valid concerns which come from solid foundations.

In any case I have set out my concerns. You clearly disagree. I do not wish to get into a protracted argument so will stop here. I have said my piece, and I do not feel that anyone is doing the Church favours by saying this is a hoax and that women who are coming forward are false witnesses

OMG
You have absolutely no proof and you are still accusing other homes.

Why don’t you just leave the Church and join the secular world that is hell bent on attacking it without basis?

Nuns on positions of influence? what?

Witnesses? What? Let’s ignore all the other witnesses that say the opposite ha?

Let’s forget all the false accusations, i.e. Philomena the Magdalen laundries, etc…

Let’s accuse the Tuam nuns because of other homes?

I really hope you see how your heart has been stained by the evil one.

I really hope you repent.

 

[Milasol]

I don’t understand about what you mean about me saying things and not having proof… did you not read the links I posted? As I said to you previously, I am not trying to prove anything in relation to Tuam by relying on other cases. As I said there is a broader debate going on, and saying Tuam is a hoax is insensitive to women who are coming forward.

I am confident that I will not be judged to have sinned for raising my concerns that my are doing my Church a disfavour by trying to discredit the testimonies of women who said they were mistreated.

As I have said, you clearly disagree with me and I do not want a long argument and I have said my piece, so I will not continue arguing.

Those so called links are secular media and not facts. FYI
Then as historical fact we have seen enough FALSE witnesses coming against the Church.

And those women are now coming for their babies?

This is about Tuam.

And it is a hoax. Another vicious attack.

I really hope you repent and/or at least feel some compassion for those nuns who took those babies despite the fact that they didn’t have to eat themselves.

Position of influence… plz

 

[DavidFallon]

OMG
You have absolutely no proof and you are still accusing other homes.

Why don’t you just leave the Church and join the secular world that is hell bent on attacking it without basis?

Nuns on positions of influence? what?

Witnesses? What? Let’s ignore all the other witnesses that say the opposite ha?

Let’s forget all the false accusations, i.e. Philomena the Magdalen laundries, etc…

Let’s accuse the Tuam nuns because of other homes?

I really hope you see how your heart has been stained by the evil one.

I really hope you repent.

Again, you seem to not have read the links I posted. You also do not seem to have an understanding of the immensely powerful societal force that the Catholic Church was in Ireland in past decades. I am confident in my faith and will not let your insults about joining the secular world undermine it.

As I said I also share concerns about false accusations. As I said to you several times I am not accusing the Tuam nuns of anything that was done in other homes. Are you saying that what happened in other homes does not matter if it was not done by people from Tuam? There were also people in other homes

I hope you spend time reflecting on your lack of sensitivity for people coming forward in relation to abuse in Homes.

 

[Milasol]

Again, you seem to not have read the links I posted. You also do not seem to have an understanding of the immensely powerful societal force that the Catholic Church was in Ireland in past decades. I am confident in my faith and will not let your insults about joining the secular world undermine it.

As I said I also share concerns about false accusations. As I said to you several times I am not accusing the Tuam nuns of anything that was done in other homes. Are you saying that what happened in other homes does not matter if it was not done by people from Tuam? There were also people in other homes

I hope you spend time reflecting on your lack of sensitivity for people coming forward in relation to abuse in Homes.

Did you read?
spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-tuam-tank-another-myth-about-evil-ireland/15140#.U7gr-fldXeb
sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/tuam-death-records-full-list-revealed-mass-grave-septic-tank
irishtimes.com/news/politics/sound-and-fury-overwhelm-rational-political-debate-1.1831900

I think you are acting concern about other homes to try and somehow presume guilt of these nuns.

I think I have seen enough false witnesses that the media have not then said they were false to completely discard them

I think that nobody is concern about slander of these nuns. Acting all compassionate about so-called witnesses does not seem true when there is a lack of compassion for those falsely accused as well.

 

[DavidFallon]

Those so called links are secular media and not facts. FYI
Then as historical fact we have seen enough FALSE witnesses coming against the Church.

And those women are now coming for their babies?

This is about Tuam.

And it is a hoax. Another vicious attack.

I really hope you repent and/or at least feel some compassion for those nuns who took those babies despite the fact that they didn’t have to eat themselves.

Position of influence… plz

It is very extreme to suggest that no secular publications are reliable. there are several which I trust, and rightfully so.

If you want to believe that Tuam was a hoax, then you are free to do so. If you want to ignore alleged wrongdoings in other homes you are also free to do so, disturbing as it is.

I really suggest that you read about the history of Ireland if you do not think that the Catholic Church was not massively influential.

I have a great deal of respect for nuns who did their best to care for children. It is other nuns that I am concerned about. I hope you try to feel some compassion for the people who claim to be abused in these homes, they can’t all be lieing

 

[DavidFallon]

Did you read?
spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-tuam-tank-another-myth-about-evil-ireland/15140#.U7gr-fldXeb
sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/tuam-death-records-full-list-revealed-mass-grave-septic-tank
irishtimes.com/news/politics/sound-and-fury-overwhelm-rational-political-debate-1.1831900

I think you are acting concern about other homes to try and somehow presume guilt of these nuns.

I think I have seen enough false witnesses that the media have not then said they were false to completely discard them

I think that nobody is concern about slander of these nuns. Acting all compassionate about so-called witnesses does not seem true when there is a lack of compassion for those falsely accused as well.

Indeed I have read those Articles, but there are a number of problems with them. There are a number of inaccuracies, particularly in the Spiked online Article. Brendan O’Neill has a very bad reputation as a journalist for not getting his facts straight. If you are going to avoid secular media I would certainly ignore him.

As I have said I am not saying that the nuns in Tuam were guilty of anything that happened in other homes. I don’t understand why you keep trying to ignore what happened in other homes though - why does that matter.

Well I understand your concern about false witnesses. I feel that many of the women coming forward are being honest, but your are entitled to be skeptical. In any case, I feel we are arguing in circles now

 

[Mark121359]

You mention above, in the last paragraph, that we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading Jesus’ message of love.

But shouldn’t that message of love also include being honest and not presuming guilt where no wrongdoing has been proven? You, and others are making presumptions of guilt, which is far from being a loving thing to do.

Also, the Church isn’t only about spreading a message of love. There are some who will use the problems of the Irish past (regarding the Church) to say that the Church should only be about LOVE, and little else. But if this is the case, then we will forget about original sin, and the tendency to sin. There needs to be a balance between God’s justice and His mercy.

One of the things I see all too often, is Catholics who are far too willing to look at the secular media’s attention on the bad things that have happened in our Church, and there are some, and allow themselves to focus on these bad things and little else. They forget that the Catholic Church is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. They let a couple of bad apples sway them. They seem to stay focused on Judas…and ignore the other Eleven!

Peace, Mark

 

[Milasol]

It is very extreme to suggest that no secular publications are reliable. there are several which I trust, and rightfully so.

If you want to believe that Tuam was a hoax, then you are free to do so. If you want to ignore alleged wrongdoings in other homes you are also free to do so, disturbing as it is.

I really suggest that you read about the history of Ireland if you do not think that the Catholic Church was not massively influential.

I have a great deal of respect for nuns who did their best to care for children. It is other nuns that I am concerned about. I hope you try to feel some compassion for the people who claim to be abused in these homes, they can’t all be lieing

Very convenient to avoid those witnesses who are emerging opposing those so-called legit witnesses.

They are real witnesses? Says who? The secular media who is hell bent on attacking the Church?

Do you have any idea the amount of slander that is perpetrated against the Church?
Do you have any idea of the amount of false witnesses?

Witnesses are coming out stating that the nuns asked for help. And maybe a little help is all that was needed. Instead now people are accusing those nuns.

And I repeat, there has been enough evidence of false witnesses and accusations that make me question any so-called witnesses. Too many false ones…

Oh and I find it ironic that the same secular source you provided, irishtimes, is the same one that retracted what they stated about these nuns. Sounds pretty legit source to me… plz

 

[Milasol]

One of the things I see all too often, is Catholics who are all too willing to look at the secular media’s attention on the bad things that have happened in our Church, and there are some, and allow themselves to focus on these bad things and little else. They forget that the Catholic Church is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. They let a couple of bad apples sway them. They seem to stay focused on Judas…and ignore the other Eleven!

Peace, Mark

They also ignore the actions of the Church that is never reported. Charity

Let’s see…
Has anyone seen the media report on any of these?

This is just in 3 countries in Africa:

1137 Hospitals

5375 Dispensaries

184 Lazrets

184 houses for the elderly and chronic ill

1285 Orphanages

2037 gardens for childhood

1673 family counseling ctrs.

2882 Centers for sanity education

1365 other institutions for poor’s assistance

67842 Maternal schools and services

93315 Primary schools

42334 Secondary schools.

And they do the same on every country of the world. Stop attacking it and actually learn the minimal about it.

They are so quick to judge the Church based on what the secular media says about it…
The same media that NEVER reports on the good done by the Church…

So excuse me if i even question the media motives on this case and many others.
I would start to believe them if they even report 1% of what the Church does good. Because there isn’t an organization in the entire world that even competes with the amount of Charity the Church does.
So until they start reporting on that, I would not believe anything else they say about the Church of Christ.

 

[mrsjennymulhall]

I think David is being unfairly treated here. He merely stated that the use of the term ‘hoax’ was incorrect! There has yet to be an enquiry; welcomed by the order of sisters involved; and we will know the truth then.

Somewhere between the absolute guilt presented by some newspapers and the absolute innocence I personally hope for; lies the truth. For all of us here; this is an academic debate but there are mother, children, families and religious with truths to tell. These need to be heard and then; investigated.

Please; let us reserve judgement until we know the truth.

 

[Milasol]

I think David is being unfairly treated here. He merely stated that the use of the term ‘hoax’ was incorrect! There has yet to be an enquiry; welcomed by the order of sisters involved; and we will know the truth then.

Please; let us reserve judgement until we know the truth.

I don’t think he merely quoted that the term hoax was incorrect. He is presuming guilt. Accusing the nuns and the Church. And all based on supposedly past events the Church did.

“Incontrovertibly large amounts of children died. She has not retracted her position regarding the sepetic tank either. The best way for us to help the church is to acknowledge the terrible mistakes of the past and make sure they do not happen again”

"I personally will adopt a position where I regret the terrible things that were done in these homes, and make sure my Church will not do any such things again."

 

[mrsjennymulhall]

Every day, ladies are coming forward with tales; long buried; of actual mistreatment in this home at that time. Just last week; my father wondered whether the twin babies of his cousin; sent to Clonmel when their mother died; passed away as was reported, or were adopted? Is everyone lying? Nobody knows; and that’s the problem.

Please; let the enquiry do their job. Let the people who were there tell their stories and let them be investigated thoroughly. Until that is done; we are just running after our tails here.

 

[Milasol]

Every day, ladies are coming forward with tales; long buried; of actual mistreatment in this home at that time. Just last week; my father wondered whether the twin babies of his cousin; sent to Clonmel when their mother died; passed away as was reported, or were adopted? Is everyone lying? Nobody knows; and that’s the problem.

Please; let the enquiry do their job. Let the people who were there tell their stories and let them be investigated thoroughly. Until that is done; we are just running after our tails here.

Tales tales…
I especially like those tales that are said by the same people who use the Tuam story to justify abortion.

I have another tale for you.

When my father was out of a job and we didn’t have to eat, the nuns from the local convent brought us food.

So many false witnesses have been proven to speak out of spite.

How many so-called tales have been said and then proven wrong but never publicly proven wrong?

So let’s do what you say and let’s not judge as many here are doing.