Tuam Mother and Baby Home in Ireland: the Trouble With the Septic Tank Story (Story is a Hoax)

[mdgspencer]

What her daughter obviously says would be important if it is true. However, I expect that reporters will go to the historian who actually is the source of the story about the Tuam home and ask her about it. Why don’t you post a report of what she now says if you find one? I am a bit puzzled about why we hear from someone else about what this historian thinks and not the historian herself.

She has not denied it. Her family have strongly condemned the Article you refer to and have stated that it grossly misrepresents Catherine Corless’ views, and that there are numerous innacuracies in the Article

kettleontherange.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/an-international-publicity-frenzy-and-my-mother/comment-page-1/

I’m not sure why you state the story is a hoax. Incontrovertibly large amounts of children died. She has not retracted her position regarding the sepetic tank either. The best way for us to help the church is to acknowledge the terrible mistakes of the past and make sure they do not happen again

 

[DavidFallon]

From what I have read from her daughter’s statements on the topic, her Mother is now exhausted from the whole Media frenzy. She was upset by the initial sensationalist headlines in international press saying “800 babies in septic tank”, and then she was upset by how the Irish Times and the Rosita Boland Article (which was then picked up by International Media) falsely stated that she had issued a retraction in relation to Tuam and that she had never said there was a septic tank.
From what I have read she has given up on the Media now, I don’t blame her! I haven’t seen her do any significant interviews in the past while.

She did this around the same time as the Rosita Boland interview, just after. It is more in line with the Article that her daughter wrote
theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/mother-behind-galway-childrens-mass-grave-story

Her family has contacted the Irish Times and asked them to apologise for the Boland Article

 

[Denise1957]

The best way for us to help the church is to acknowledge the terrible mistakes of the past and make sure they do not happen again

What exactly are the “mistakes” of the past that have been proven to have occurred at Tuam?

 

[Milasol]

You are not answering the question.

What mistakes supposedly were committed at Tuam by the Church?

Because so many so-called mistakes that were never proven have been attributed to the Church in Ireland’s past.

Tuam is a hoax and now it will be piled in the “past actions” of the Church?

No, let’s for once say that it is not proven to be a mistake of the Church as so many here are eager to say.

So tired of the baseless attacks…

 

[Denise1957]

You are not answering the question.

What mistakes supposedly were committed at Tuam by the Church?

Because so many so-called mistakes that were never proven have been attributed to the Church in Ireland’s past.

Tuam is a hoax and now it will be piled in the “past actions” of the Church?

No, let’s for once say that it is not proven to be a mistake of the Church as so many here are eager to say.

So tired of the baseless attacks…

 

[Memaw]

You are not answering the question.

What mistakes supposedly were committed at Tuam by the Church?

Because so many so-called mistakes that were never proven have been attributed to the Church in Ireland’s past.

Tuam is a hoax and now it will be piled in the “past actions” of the Church?

No, let’s for once say that it is not proven to be a mistake of the Church as so many here are eager to say.

So tired of the baseless attacks…

At least we know we belong to the Church Jesus founded, HE did say, They persecuted ME and they will persecute you too. Seems to be their favorite pastime. They may find themselves fighting against God. God Bless, Memaw

 

[boomerang]

What exactly are the “mistakes” of the past that have been proven to have occurred at Tuam?

I’ll tell you what the “mistakes” are. Everyone involved was Catholic! If only they had listened to Luther and converted when they had the chance, none of this stuff would have happened! Because, you know, Protestants are perfect and never, ever do anything inappropriate. You know it’s true. We never hear about any wrongdoing in the Protestant churches because they aren’t minions of the Whore of Babylon, so the press has no reason to focus on them. If only we had listened to Luther and Henry VIII. …

 

[DavidFallon]

What exactly are the “mistakes” of the past that have been proven to have occurred at Tuam?

Denise if you read into this area you’ll see that it’s undisputed that there were some pretty horrific practices occurring in Mother and Children Homes run by Catholic Orders, far worse than one would expect in such Homes. My point was that attempts to defend the Church by trying to argue that nothing happened at Tuam (like the Article by Rosita Boland did by falsely stating that Corless had issued a detraction) are going in the wrong direction, because the salient point is whether there were wrongdoings in these homes.

As regards Tuam itself, my point was that Corless has not issued a retraction, and says that the infant mortality rate was far too high even considering all the circumstances. I have seen different people claim they have proven that it was not too high, or that it was too high, or that it was in fact lower than would be expected. Many of these analyses are flawed, and it’s difficult to know. We will know after the inquiry.

My point is in order to properly defend the Church we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading jesus’ message of love.

Here are some Articles on wrongdoings in these homes
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918

 

[DavidFallon]

I’ll tell you what the “mistakes” are. Everyone involved was Catholic! If only they had listened to Luther and converted when they had the chance, none of this stuff would have happened! Because, you know, Protestants are perfect and never, ever do anything inappropriate. You know it’s true. We never hear about any wrongdoing in the Protestant churches because they aren’t minions of the Whore of Babylon, so the press has no reason to focus on them. If only we had listened to Luther and Henry VIII. …

Haha indeed there were wrongdoings at the Protestant Bethany Homes also, and it appears that will be included in the inquiry being established

 

[DavidFallon]

You are not answering the question.

What mistakes supposedly were committed at Tuam by the Church?

Because so many so-called mistakes that were never proven have been attributed to the Church in Ireland’s past.

Tuam is a hoax and now it will be piled in the “past actions” of the Church?

No, let’s for once say that it is not proven to be a mistake of the Church as so many here are eager to say.

So tired of the baseless attacks…

Saying it was a hoax is incredibly insensitive and does not make sense. A hoax is something intentionally and falsely done to deceive someone. Where was that done here?

Indeed there was initial misreporting saying that 800 children were in a septic tank. Though very unfortunate this was not intentionally done to spread falsehoods - it was done by some intertational newspapers who did not check their facts properly. Corless did not say 800 bodies were in a septic tank. She said 796 children died and that evidence suggested that some of their bodies were in a septic tank. So there was no hoax. Tuam was run by a Catholic Order, and the historian that drew attention to Tuam says the death rate was far too high, even for such a home at the time. That is what concerns people.

And then evidence began to emerge of horrific wrongdoings in homes such as Tuam when survivors came forward. Of course Society at the time send people to these homes and was complicit, but trying to say all of this is a hoax is extremely insensitive to people who suffered at these homes.

I personally will adopt a position where I regret the terrible things that were done in these homes, and make sure my Church will not do any such things again.

 

[Milasol]

Saying it was a hoax is incredibly insensitive and does not make sense. A hoax is something intentionally and falsely done to deceive someone. Where was that done here?

Indeed there was initial misreporting saying that 800 children were in a septic tank. Though very unfortunate this was not intentionally done to spread falsehoods - it was done by some intertational newspapers who did not check their facts properly. Corless did not say 800 bodies were in a septic tank. She said 796 children died and that evidence suggested that some of their bodies were in a septic tank. So there was no hoax. Tuam was run by a Catholic Order, and the historian that drew attention to Tuam says the death rate was far too high, even for such a home at the time. That is what concerns people.

And then evidence began to emerge of horrific wrongdoings in homes such as Tuam when survivors came forward. Of course Society at the time send people to these homes and was complicit, but trying to say all of this is a hoax is extremely insensitive to people who suffered at these homes.

I personally will adopt a position where I regret the terrible things that were done in these homes, and make sure my Church will not do any such things again.

Evidence began to emerge of no wrongdoing and no different than the rest of Ireland.
Most died during the war
Others from diseases
So please spear me your eagerness to attack the Church at every opportunity you have without any basis.

 

[Denise1957]

Denise if you read into this area you’ll see that it’s undisputed that there were some pretty horrific practices occurring in Mother and Children Homes run by Catholic Orders, far worse than one would expect in such Homes. My point was that attempts to defend the Church by trying to argue that nothing happened at Tuam (like the Article by Rosita Boland did by falsely stating that Corless had issued a detraction) are going in the wrong direction, because the salient point is whether there were wrongdoings in these homes.

As regards Tuam itself, my point was that Corless has not issued a retraction, and says that the infant mortality rate was far too high even considering all the circumstances. I have seen different people claim they have proven that it was not too high, or that it was too high, or that it was in fact lower than would be expected. Many of these analyses are flawed, and it’s difficult to know. We will know after the inquiry.

My point is in order to properly defend the Church we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading jesus’ message of love.

Here are some Articles on wrongdoings in these homes
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918

You mention above, in the last paragraph, that we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading Jesus’ message of love.

But shouldn’t that message of love also include being honest and not presuming guilt where no wrongdoing has been proven? You, and others are making presumptions of guilt, which is far from being a loving thing to do.

Also, the Church isn’t only about spreading a message of love. There are some who will use the problems of the Irish past (regarding the Church) to say that the Church should only be about LOVE, and little else. But if this is the case, then we will forget about original sin, and the tendency to sin. There needs to be a balance between God’s justice and His mercy.

 

[Milasol]

You mention above, in the last paragraph, that we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading Jesus’ message of love.

But shouldn’t that message of love also include being honest and not presuming guilt where no wrongdoing has been proven? You, and others are making presumptions of guilt, which is far from being a loving thing to do.

Also, the Church isn’t only about spreading a message of love. There are some who will use the problems of the Irish past (regarding the Church) to say that the Church should only be about LOVE, and little else. But if this is the case, then we will forget about original sin, and the tendency to sin. There needs to be a balance between God’s justice and His mercy.

Isn’t it amazing how not even the secular world has finished the investigation and here we have some so-called Catholics who are too eager to presume guilt?

Unreal.

 

[estesbob]

Saying it was a hoax is incredibly insensitive and does not make sense. A hoax is something intentionally and falsely done to deceive someone. Where was that done here?

Indeed there was initial misreporting saying that 800 children were in a septic tank. Though very unfortunate this was not intentionally done to spread falsehoods - it was done by some intertational newspapers who did not check their facts properly. Corless did not say 800 bodies were in a septic tank. She said 796 children died and that evidence suggested that some of their bodies were in a septic tank. So there was no hoax. Tuam was run by a Catholic Order, and the historian that drew attention to Tuam says the death rate was far too high, even for such a home at the time. That is what concerns people.

And then evidence began to emerge of horrific wrongdoings in homes such as Tuam when survivors came forward. Of course Society at the time send people to these homes and was complicit, but trying to say all of this is a hoax is extremely insensitive to people who suffered at these homes.

I personally will adopt a position where I regret the terrible things that were done in these homes, and make sure my Church will not do any such things again.

And easily we were told that 800 children had been mistreated and starved to death and thrown into a septic tank, denied proper burial, because the church forbade baptism for illegitimate children. All that was categorically false. In fact the nuns were one of the few groups willing to step up and take care of these women and children who have been ostracized by the rest of the Irish Society.

 

[Milasol]

And easily we were told that 800 children had been mistreated and starved to death and thrown into a septic tank, denied proper burial, because the church forbade baptism for illegitimate children. All that was categorically false. In fact the nuns were one of the few groups willing to step up and take care of these women and children who have been ostracized by the rest of the Irish Society.

Witnesses are coming out about nuns who complained to the County Council for lack of funds. The fact is that these sisters ran the house but the building was not even owned by them. The authorities sent abandoned children and pregnant women in this structure and the sisters were left alone to get by with the little money they gave them. This is the reality that is coming out.
That the child infant mortality rates at Tuam were quite the same than in general Ireland this is a very miracle…

Here are a record of the babies and how they died. Most, if not all, died from diseases. So I guess according to some anti-catholics on this thread the nuns had a lab more sophisticated than those Al-qaeda has today and manufactured Measles, Meningitis, Gastroenteritis, etc.

sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/tuam-death-records-full-list-revealed-mass-grave-septic-tank

Let’s also not forget that even the same media that rushed to presume guild based on what an amateur historian lied about are now retracting what they said.

"Much of the instant hysteria was generated in response to a wave of deeply misleading media reports suggesting that the bodies of almost 800 children who died at a mother and baby home in Tuam between 1925 and 1961 were dumped in a septic tank…However, the old adage about never letting the facts get in the way of a good story meant that lurid and misleading reports went around the world and fanned a political storm at home.”

irishtimes.com/news/politics/sound-and-fury-overwhelm-rational-political-debate-1.1831900

Also the AP formally apologized

So all of you eager to blame these nuns OWE an apology. Otherwise tell me how those nuns could manufacture all those diseases and feed all those babies without any money.

Shame Shame Shame

 

[DavidFallon]

Evidence began to emerge of no wrongdoing and no different than the rest of Ireland.
Most died during the war
Others from diseases
So please spear me your eagerness to attack the Church at every opportunity you have without any basis.

I don’t what you mean by attacking the Church, and I don’t know what you mean by me not backing up the points I am making with examples. I also don’t know which evidence you mean of no wrongdoing, and if it was in relation to Tuam or other homes.

My point was that in defending the Church in this area, many people try to engage in a semantical argument of ignoring claims of mistreatment in Mother and Children Homes generally, and focusing just on Tuam, and pointing out the initial inaccurate reporting and trying to argue that nothing went wrong there. That is ignoring the broader debate and is not an effective defence of homes which were run by Catholic Orders.

And there is a lot of basis for concern of these homes. I have posted some examples above. Many women are coming forward and saying that they were subject to extreme abuse.
here are two examples.
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html

 

[Milasol]

I don’t what you mean by attacking the Church, and I don’t know what you mean by me not backing up the points I am making with examples. I also don’t know which evidence you mean of no wrongdoing, and if it was in relation to Tuam or other homes.

My point was that in defending the Church in this area, many people try to engage in a semantical argument of ignoring claims of mistreatment in Mother and Children Homes generally, and focusing just on Tuam, and pointing out the initial inaccurate reporting and trying to argue that nothing went wrong there. That is ignoring the broader debate and is not an effective defence of homes which were run by Catholic Orders.

And there is a lot of basis for concern of these homes. I have posted some examples above. Many women are coming forward and saying that they were subject to extreme abuse.
here are two examples.
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html

Explain to me how allegations of other events justify the accusations of the Tuam nuns?

Explain how the AP and the Irish times retracted their irresponsible and vicious mal reporting about Tuam

irishtimes.com/news/politics/sound-and-fury-overwhelm-rational-political-debate-1.1831900

Explain how the nuns caused all those diseases?

sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/tuam-death-records-full-list-revealed-mass-grave-septic-tank

So please next time you say there are witness for this and that in order to try and justify your inner desire to accuse these nuns, know you are only fooling yourself. You are not fooling anyone else unless they want to be fooled.

So please explain how the Tuam nuns manufactured disease such as Measles, Meningitis, etc?

Explain

Bottom line is that you are trying to bring in other cases to try and prove the non-existant guilt you want to accuse these nuns of.

Shame shame shame

 

[DavidFallon]

You mention above, in the last paragraph, that we should acknowledge that terrible things happened in these homes, but work forward and make sure that from now on the Church is only a vessel for spreading Jesus’ message of love.

But shouldn’t that message of love also include being honest and not presuming guilt where no wrongdoing has been proven? You, and others are making presumptions of guilt, which is far from being a loving thing to do.

Also, the Church isn’t only about spreading a message of love. There are some who will use the problems of the Irish past (regarding the Church) to say that the Church should only be about LOVE, and little else. But if this is the case, then we will forget about original sin, and the tendency to sin. There needs to be a balance between God’s justice and His mercy.

I agree that presuming guilt where none has been proven is wrong. But when a number of people come forward alleging that they were subject to extreme mistreatment, and alleging that this was part of a general practice which occurred in the institution which they were in, then I think that this is very strong evidence that these practices occurred. I don’t think these women were lying. Of course time may have distorted the memory, but when a significant number of people come forward alleging the same thing about a number of places, then it is strong grounds for believing that those things happened in those places.

Perhaps it is premature of me to say before the inquiry is over that the best position would be to admit past failings and look forward. But my main concern is that I feel it is disrespectful to women who claim that they were subject to severe mistreatment to claim that the controversy surrounding Tuam and Mother and Baby Homes is a hoax

 

[Milasol]

I don’t what you mean by attacking the Church, and I don’t know what you mean by me not backing up the points I am making with examples. I also don’t know which evidence you mean of no wrongdoing, and if it was in relation to Tuam or other homes.

My point was that in defending the Church in this area, many people try to engage in a semantical argument of ignoring claims of mistreatment in Mother and Children Homes generally, and focusing just on Tuam, and pointing out the initial inaccurate reporting and trying to argue that nothing went wrong there. That is ignoring the broader debate and is not an effective defence of homes which were run by Catholic Orders.

And there is a lot of basis for concern of these homes. I have posted some examples above. Many women are coming forward and saying that they were subject to extreme abuse.
here are two examples.
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100277164/associated-press-apologises-for-its-incorrect-reporting-of-the-tuam-babies-scandal/

I wonder why you are so quick to judge without proof?

I wonder why you are bringing in other unproven cases with many times false witnesses to prove these nuns are guilty.

Oh why don’t you talk about how false the cases such as Philomena are?

So quick to jump with the secular attacks on the Church… unreal.

 

[Milasol]

And there is a lot of basis for concern of these homes. I have posted some examples above. Many women are coming forward and saying that they were subject to extreme abuse.
here are two examples.
irishtimes.com/news/politics/surviving-a-mother-and-baby-home-1.1828918
independent.ie/irish-news/news/extraordinary-doctor-stood-up-to-clergy-and-closed-home-30344924.html

Are you sure?

Many of the more shocking claims made about Ireland’s nun-run Magdalene Laundries, in movies, books and newspaper articles, were called into question by the Irish government’s exhaustive report published last year. The report found not a single case of sexual abuse in the entire history of the laundries. It also found that the vast majority of the girls who lived and worked in the laundries were not physically punished. ‘There is no escaping the fact that the report jars with popular perceptions’, said the Irish Times. Furthermore, one of the most widely read books about the laundries - Don’t Ever Tell by Kathy O’Beirne, one of the bestselling Irish books of the twenty-first century which has been widely cited in commentary on Irish Catholic abuse - was exposed as phoney: Ms O’Beirne was never actually in a laundry. Mainstream media coverage of Ireland’s past frequently gets the facts wildly wrong. ‘Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools’, said the UK Independent in 2009 when the Irish government published its extensive report on the abuse of boys in Catholic-run schools. Clearly the Indie hadn’t read the report, for if it had it would surely have noticed that in fact there were 68 claims of rape, not all of them proven, between the period of 1914 and 1999. Quite how 68 accusations of rape became ‘thousands were raped’ is anyone’s guess.

Whenever the exaggerations and myths about Ireland’s past are exposed, the same thing is said: okay, these might have been lies but they were good lies, because they got people talking about the history of Catholic abuse in Ireland. When the 2013 government report on the Magdalene Laundries called into question the claims made in various films and books, campaigners told the Irish Times that ‘the role such [movies and books] played in highlighting the issue justified any artistic embellishment’. When questions were raised about Kathy O’Beirne’s account of life in a Magdalene Laundry, one of her defenders said she had at least ‘kept the issue of the Magdalene asylums in the public eye’ and her book had been ‘helpful’ to sufferers of abuse. No doubt someone will now say the same about Tuam: ‘Yes, yes, 800 babies might not have been found in a septic tank, but at least we are all taking about the mistreatment of single mums and their kids in old Ireland.’ How many ‘good lies’ have to be told about Ireland’s past before they just become lies? If as many myths were spread about by a government in relation to a war or something, there would be outrage, demands for an inquiry; why is it okay, then, to promote half-truths, non-facts and embellishments about the Irish Catholic Church?