Turkey 'downs Russian warplane on Syria border' - BBC

[Path_Finder]

Syria: UN envoy meets opposition groups on effort to broker ceasefire, political transition

24 November 2015 – Stepping up efforts to broker a ceasefire in Syria, the United Nations Special Envoy for the country, Staffan de Mistura, is briefing various opposition groups on latest international efforts to end a five-year conflict that has killed hundreds of thousands and driven millions from their homes.

Mr. de Mistura met yesterday in Istanbul with members of the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces (SOC), and today with armed opposition groups to inform them about the meeting earlier this month in Vienna of the International Syria Support Group (ISSG), including the close linkage between a ceasefire and a parallel political transition.

The ISSG includes the Arab League, the European Union, the United Nations, and 17 countries.

Mr. de Mistura elaborated on his ongoing efforts to prepare for intra-Syrian talks under UN auspices, with a view to a Syrian-led process aimed at establishing credible, inclusive and non-sectarian governance and drafting a new constitution.

• The United Nations un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52643#.VlWiwl6KZVI

It’s dangerous if somehow one lumps all of the opposition forces together, it in effect, gives license to one side to slaughter others but then, despite this, it seems unfathomable that the rebels in turn, might have fired upon the pilots, regrettable, but apparently, if only ISIS, Al Nusra and others were being targeted, this would not have happened as well.

And so now, we go from the argument that ISIS was being targeted to “moderate rebels” being a hilarious concept. to the Russians themselves acknowledging the moderates and plenty of stories underscore this, there was the story of Russia even cooperating with moderates to hit ISIS.

 

[Path_Finder]

I’m with you pepipop…

All I can say is I have no respect for Turkey and I’m pissed at those who try to justify this and stand by Turkey (especially using NATO). Fair enough if Turkey wants to defend it’s air space, but it’s obvious there was malice involved in this. They are fighting ISIS in Syria who obviously are right on Turkeys door step.

I feel sorry for Putin and the Russian people and my prayers are with them. I hope Turkey gets kicked out of NATO and I hope Obama and the rest of NATO recognize the gross overreaction and malice involved in Turkey’s actions.

I also hope Putin will not retaliate severely and that other NATO members will stand up and correct Turkey and seek peace and reconciliation with Putin.

If this ever did blow up, there is no way I would support Turkey and likewise NATO while ever Turkey is a part of it.

Anyway, these are my views with the information I current have on this.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

Is there not criticism for the pilots hitting non-ISIS non-Al Qaeda areas? A lot of the Turkmen fled the area. Maybe if Russia was targeting ISIS and not others, this would not have happened.

I feel sorry for the civilians of Syria that are being targeted by the unpopular regimes barrel bombs daily still along with hi-tech Russian bombs.

Oh, but if there is a backlash, that is bad.

And likewise, peeved at Putin and have not respected them for other ventures that can likewise be called terroristic. Looks like they’ve been trying to foment war.

**
Iraq asked Syria’s Assad to stop aiding ‘jihadists’: Former official** - See more at: middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-asked-syrias-assad-not-aid-jihadists-former-official-1553468312#sthash.ljJqqIPz.dpuf

 

[Path_Finder]

The Russian air force kill 403 civilians, including 166 women and children, and about 7000 civilians killed in 13 months of airstrikes carried out by the regime air forces
November 20, 2015

SOHR documented 42234 airstrikes carried out by the regime air force since 10/20/2014 until this morning 11/20/2015, where the airstrikes targeted several farms, villages, towns and cities in 13 provinces. The regime helicopters dropped 22370 barrel bombs on different areas in the provinces of Rif Dimashq, Aleppo, Homs, Hama, al- Hasakah, Deir Ezzor, al- Quneitera, al- Suwaydaa, Daraa, Idlib and Lattakia. Meanwhile, the regime warplanes carried … Read more

syriahr.com/en/

 

[josh987654321]

Is there not criticism for the pilots hitting non-ISIS non-Al Qaeda pilots? A lot of the Turkmen fled the area. Maybe if Russia was targeting ISIS and not others, this would not have happened.

I feel sorry for the civilians of Syria that are being targeted by the unpopular regimes barrel bombs daily still along with hi-tech Russian bombs.

Oh, but if there is a backlash, that is bad.

Depends what these non-ISIS and non-Al Qaeda people were doing. America claims it has been targeting ISIS the whole time, yet ISIS has grown, not shrunk, so somethings up with NATO’s version of ISIS.

Anyway, it’s all too complicated and I am not privy to all of the information anyway, all I know is there is a lot of bs going on and I don’t trust any of the leaders at play here, all I know is that Turkey shooting down a plane that is (or should be) combating a common enemy over something so small and most likely accidental, obviously posing no threat to Turkey was malicious and an unjustified overreaction.

If things like this continue, ISIS’s war will engulf the whole world. Turkey needs to be kicked out of NATO (or at least threatened to be kicked out) and then maybe they will acquire a little humility and seek for peaceful resolutions regarding tensions with Russia, mutual understanding and cooperation with others toward a common enemy.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Furthermore, the Turkish president himself in 2012 when he was prime minister was furious when Syria downed a Turkish Jet and responded with “A short term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack.”

The height of hypocrisy right there!

Why are people backing this and calling Turkey’s actions justified rather than seeking reconciliation with Russia and pulling Turkey back into line for shooting down a plane that posed no threat to them and was combating a common enemy? Fair enough they were upset that it breached their air space (which is debatable as it’s currently being investigated) but it’s a malicious overreaction to shoot it down for a 17 second violation on the boarder of Turkey while combating a common enemy in Syria right on Turkey’s door step. That tells me there was malice involved in their actions and that they were itching to shoot it down which makes them way wrong.

I sincerely hope NATO pulls Turkey into line and seeks reconciliation with Russia. I sincerely hope Obama recognizes this as an overreaction by Turkey and likewise seeks reconciliation with Russia.

One can rightly recognize a violation of another nations air space, but one should absolutely recognize the malicious overreaction of shooting down a plane that posed no threat and unintentionally violated said air space for only 17 seconds while combating a common enemy on it’s boarder.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[7_Sorrows]

A little good news…

rt.com/news/323377-russian-pilot-saved-syria/

*The second Russian pilot, who ejected from the Su-24 bomber shot down by Turkey on Tuesday over Syria, is safe and sound and has been taken to the Russian airbase in Latakia, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said.

“The [rescue] operation is successfully over. The pilot has been delivered to our base. Safe and sound,” Shoigu said during a meeting of the Defense Committee, adding that the operation was performed by Russian and Syrian special forces.

Shoigu said the joint operation had taken about 12 hours and thanked all special forces’ personnel that took part in the operation to rescue the pilot.*

I wonder how he was found?

 

[7_Sorrows]

Path_Finder:
the Russian Air Force has been doing air strikes for 13 months?
I don’t think that article is correct.

 

[seekerz]

I think this is a sad, if timely reminder of the million and one reasons we already have for not sending in ground troops. Who the enemy is on the ground, depends on who you ask.

Maybe I’m oversimplifying things but my understanding is that the rebels shot the pilot/s because they were flying missions in their area - as such, they represented the enemy (at least at that moment in time).

Perhaps the correct thing to do would have been to take him prisoner, except that in this war the rules seem to have long ago been thrown out the window (as in direct targeting of civilians, use of chemical weapons, summary executions etc). In Putin’s case, he entered another country to kill people rebelling against their government. He seems to give a nod to the whole anti-ISIS fight, but all reports are that he is bombing the anti-Assad opposition. He is killing people with genuine grievances in their own country to help his friend - it’s really that simple.

When I look at Putin’s action and listen to the comments of our Holy Father about the situation in the world today, I can only think of the warnings of our Blessed Mother regarding Russia. Putin is part of the reason Syria is in this state today because Russia and China opposed any action by the UN security council to avert civil war in Syria since that entailed acting against Assad. That failure to intervene and at least restrain Assad, is one of the reasons that ISIS took root in Syria - to make war on a brutal enemy without a prolonged fight, one either needs overwhelming numbers or overwhelming brutality.

But now Mr Putin gets to somehow act as the world’s savior against ISIS? That’s the part I really don’t get, it’s like you sell the matches to an arsonist and then ride in on a fire truck (to cheers and applause) except that what you’re really spraying is gasoline and not water?!

We are better off - the whole world is - taking a deep breath, refraining from letting our fears build up ISIS into some formidable, intimidating force (which it is not), and finding a way other than war to squeeze the life out of their organization. The best bet would be cutting of their ability to finance their activities. When I think of the countries that have done way more harm than this “pretend caliphate” of ISIS (if you count damage in terms of deaths) that were restrained by worldwide sanctions, I just cannot get why ISIS is still able to sell oil and buy arms.

Anything more than a logical approach to the ISIS phenomenon (that is what it is - NOT some imposing world power) is simply our fear speaking and when fear rules and the lessons of the past elude us, the terrorists have already won.

 

[pepipop]

I’m with you pepipop…

All I can say is I have no respect for Turkey and I’m pissed at those who try to justify this and stand by Turkey (especially using NATO). Fair enough if Turkey wants to defend it’s air space, but it’s obvious there was malice involved in this. They are fighting ISIS in Syria who obviously are right on Turkeys door step.

I feel sorry for Putin and the Russian people and my prayers are with them. I hope Turkey gets kicked out of NATO and I hope Obama and the rest of NATO recognize the gross overreaction and malice involved in Turkey’s actions.

I also hope Putin will not retaliate severely and that other NATO members will stand up and correct Turkey and seek peace and reconciliation with Putin.

If this ever did blow up, there is no way I would support Turkey and likewise NATO while ever Turkey is a part of it.

Anyway, these are my views with the information I current have on this.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

Me too, Josh. I abhor injustice and this was unjust, as was NATO’s immediate response to it.

3 years back when Turkey had a plane hit by Syria, after flying for a minute in Syria, NATO were outraged, as was Erdogan and stated the same. The BIG difference between the two incidents being that Turkey had no right to be in Syria at all, whilst Turkey knew that Russia was fighting terrorism on its’ doorstep and was flying straight back to their Syrian airbase.

Russia were not flying into Turkey to hit them, or threaten them, or anything else, just to get back to their airbase.

bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18598529

*Earlier, Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at Syria’s decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom last Friday and described Syria as a “clear and present threat”.

“A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he said.

He said the Turkish jet had been on a training flight, testing Turkey’s radars in the eastern Mediterranean.

The North Atlantic Council discussed the shooting down of a Turkish aircraft by Syria. We consider this act to be unacceptable and condemn it in the strongest terms. It is another example of the Syrian authorities’ disregard for international norms, peace and security, and human life.
*

 

[Path_Finder]

the Russian Air Force has been doing air strikes for 13 months?
I don’t think that article is correct.

The Russian air force kill 403 civilians, including 166 women and children,*** and about 7000 civilians killed in 13 months of airstrikes carried out by the regime air forces
November 20, 2015***

syriahr.com/en/

The writer is saying the Regime meaning Assad’s regime has killed 7000 civilians in the last 13 months in airstrikes.

Sometimes, something may be lost in the language, seeing how the writer is probably an Arabic language speaker first and English speaker 2nd but they are definitely saying this about the regime.

The Syrian Regime still uses barrel bombs, so I’d say it’s hilarious if one doesn’t include them among the terrorists though I’m sure someone will say that isn’t so.

 

[Path_Finder]

1. EU sanctions prohibit Assad’s family, including his wife, from gaining entrance to the European continent.

In March of 2012, the EU restricted the travel of a dozen Assad family members from entering the European continent because of the brutal oppression of political dissenters by his regime. The sanctions include his wife, but she is not barred from traveling to the United Kingdom because of her British nationality.

“With this new listing we are striking at the heart of the Assad clan, sending out a loud and clear message to Assad: He should step down,” Dutch Foreign Minister Uri Rosenthal said during a 2012 EU ministers’ meeting in Brussels.

Read more at christianpost.com/news/syrian-president-bashar-al-assad-five-things-to-know-150732/#7ZBxOrOroLeBpWvy.99

As tens of thousands of refugees flee war-torn Syria to seek asylum in Europe, world leaders are deliberating on what actions, if any, to take against President Bashar al-Assad whose government has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in barrel bomb and chemical weapons attacks as the country fights a civil war and the Islamic State.

It is estimated that 240,000 people have been killed since the start of the Syrian civil war and millions have been displaced or have fled to neighboring countries and Europe.

Read more at christianpost.com/news/syrian-president-bashar-al-assad-five-things-to-know-150732/#7ZBxOrOroLeBpWvy.99

Christian Post even acknowledges this.

So, it’s bad if the Turkmen shot at the pilot coming down, still, to cooperate with the Assad regime is an evil as well.

 

[Path_Finder]

US doesn’t want to support Russia because 'Moscow is killing too many citizens with dumb bombs’
independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-doesnt-want-to-support-russia-because-moscow-is-killing-too-many-citizens-with-dumb-bombs-a6748226.html

 

[pepipop]

Christian Post even acknowledges this.

So, it’s bad if the Turkmen shot at the pilot coming down, still, to cooperate with the Assad regime is an evil as well.

How do they prove that? Most of the civilians have left and most support Assad - so someone’s not telling the truth, either he’s killing off all his people and they still support him - or the real truth is - he is not killing them.

*Weapons of mass destruction/*I]…will never be forgotten.

The same old, same old stories when the West either want someone replaced with one of their own choosing, and/or to create complete mayhem in a region, which has already blown out of all proportion in the ME.

Remove Assad before democratic elections, in Syria, and ISIS will ‘own’ Syria with all its’ resources, arms, oil, money, etc… mind you that’s probably the entire plan and at that point the ‘others’ will up their game to help bomb ISIS into oblivion - as ISIS’s usefulness will be over and done with.

 

[pepipop]

Path_Finder:
*Quote:
US doesn’t want to support Russia because ‘Moscow is killing too many citizens with dumb bombs’
independent.co.uk/news/wo…-a6748226.html

---

With malice toward none, with charity for all … - Abraham Lincoln*

Pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

The excuses are getting weaker and weaker now, obviously the ‘Russia isn’t hitting ISIS’ - stories haven’t worked, so it’s back to plan B Russia’s killing all the civilians.

You couldn’t make it up - well actually you probably could, as it’s all so predictable.

 

[Path_Finder]

rediff.com/news/report/pix-syria-the-most-dangerous-place-to-be-a-child/20151125.htm

These photos of Syria’s children will give you sleepless nights

This really shows what is going on, it is unfortunate when a lack of facts justifies violence.

If one mentions something like the comments at the Daily Mail, another interesting barometer is how often those kinds of points of views state anti-semitic, hateful and the same other kinds of lack of facts, a lack of facts that don’t even jibe with the point of view the Russian press puts forth which at least has some coherent nature to it.

 

[JW55]

Is there not criticism for the pilots hitting non-ISIS non-Al Qaeda areas? A lot of the Turkmen fled the area. Maybe if Russia was targeting ISIS and not others, this would not have happened. .

Obviously there are such criticisms. Isn’t that what you are doing? Did you also do so for the American pilots who bombed the hospital? It is all tragic. Both ways. Are you a pilot? Can you separate who belongs to what group? Do you honestly think there aren’t ISIS infiltrated in these groups? They change all the time. A lot of these are Al Qaeda (remember the towers in NYC?). “Moderate rebels”, a nice ploys to get shiny new weapons from the U.S.

I feel sorry for the civilians of Syria that are being targeted by the unpopular regimes barrel bombs daily still along with hi-tech Russian bombs.

I feel sorry for all deaths in war. Civilians and military. What a loss for what could have been productive lives. However, I could provide you an arm’s length of atrocities from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The various Middle Eastern, committed by Americans. There were many. Obviously it could be said for the Russians, the Germans in WWII. So what is the point? They were in a War!

Oh, but if there is a backlash, that is bad.

Of course there is, there is always blowback from the press, the enemy and those you aren’t in an alliance with. It’s usually one-sided depending on what team you play for.

And likewise, peeved at Putin and have not respected them for other ventures that can likewise be called terroristic. Looks like they’ve been trying to foment war.

Once again it goes both ways, but if you don’t want to see the perspective from both sides, that sort of thing is conveniently discard, right?

It amazes me how things are always so one sided. The “boots on the ground” crowd and those who want America involved in every world skirmish that surfaces then want to put “rules of conflict” on our American soldiers and other allied armies fighting the opposition and then turn around and jump at every error or violation that occurs or maybe just defend the home team actions for every similar event. Most of these people who do so were probably never in the military themselves or if they were, never saw real life combat or know what is involved just to survive in situations where you often have to make instantaneous decisions on life and death. They want to have these “rules of engagement’ like they are a combat video game or a chess board. This is demeaning and insulting to our troops and those soldiers of other nations that are fighting wars perpetuated by politicians that people believe are to ”keep us safe”. Of course never mind these soldiers may die there or be maimed or suffer for the rest of their lives from the things that they have witnessed, right? At least all the arm chair quarterbacks can eat their popcorn, watch their favorite shows on TV, and spend endless hours citing mass media articles on the topic supporting their biased political positions without having to be directly involved and post them on a forum.

Collateral damage is a reality of war. Deaths on both sides and unimaginable terror and suffering is a result. But if we don’t have the stomach for accepting that then we need to keep ourselves out of the conflict. I was not in favor of intervention in the Middle East or any interventionist war except defense of our country on our soil, but we are there. The French, British and Russians are there. So if we are there and that is our commitment, we have to do what is necessary to get this over ASAP and put aside pettiness and hatred of Russia or whoever and cooperate with other nations to get the job. If anyone think ISIS plays by rules and believe they are not integrated in these “moderate rebels” or other militant groups is absurd and out of touch with reality.
.
ibtimes.com/jabhat-al-nusra-isis-alliance-could-spread-beyond-damascus-1877819

 

[Abynissa]

It is a known fact that Russia is paying an army of trolls to hit social media outlets of Western news organizations in the comment sections with their distorted fews. Regulars on TheGuardian are well aware of this as with other social media outlets.

As I posted and predicted yesterday, on what Putin’s action has come true.

AP
MOSCOW (AP) – President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday ordered state-of-the art air defense missile systems to be deployed at a Russian air base in Syria following the downing of one of its warplanes by Turkey, a move that raised the threat of a military confrontation between the NATO member and Moscow.

The S-400 missile systems will be sent to the Hemeimeem air base in Syria?s coastal province of Latakia, located about 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey. The systems are capable of targeting Turkish jets with deadly precision.** If Russia shot down a Turkish plane, NATO would be required to intervene.**

 

[Path_Finder]

Nothing to do with anything - Paris was atrociously attacked, a week ago, and both France and Russia are bombing the perpetrators, who have also waged war on all Western countries.

Turkey must know they’e safe from ISIS and/or weren’t up to speed with what’s actually going on in the world - or maybe their oil supplies were going to be hit by the Russians.

This has nothing to do with ISIS; oh, and now, it’s “hilarious that there are moderate rebels” but that is whom the Russians met in Moscow. Along with crediting moderate forces for telling them where to bomb ISIS according to the Russians.

So, now, we went from the narrative that Russians are always bombing ISIS to all rebels being radicalized. And the sad thing is this seems to justify a slaughter let alone, a total change in the narrative one put forth.

 

[Path_Finder]

slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2015/11/turkey_shot_down_a_russian_jet_fighter_tension_with_russia_will_make_peace.html

If Turkey has been involved with ISIS, Russia likewise has not shied away from meeting with Turkey.

presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/05/388887/russia-plans-inclusive-talks-on-syria/

Moscow has also increased its diplomatic efforts to convince various regional stakeholders, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, to engage in another series of talks along the lines of previous international meetings.

 

[Path_Finder]

It is a known fact that Russia is paying an army of trolls to hit social media outlets of Western news organizations in the comment sections with their distorted fews. Regulars on TheGuardian are well aware of this as with other social media outlets.

As I posted and predicted yesterday, on what Putin’s action has come true.

AP
MOSCOW (AP) – President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday ordered state-of-the art air defense missile systems to be deployed at a Russian air base in Syria following the downing of one of its warplanes by Turkey, a move that raised the threat of a military confrontation between the NATO member and Moscow.

The S-400 missile systems will be sent to the Hemeimeem air base in Syria?s coastal province of Latakia, located about 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of the border with Turkey. The systems are capable of targeting Turkish jets with deadly precision.** If Russia shot down a Turkish plane, NATO would be required to intervene.**

Totally agree and besides that, some of those views say some pretty hateful things as well, so if one uses “comments” as a source, they should own the rest.