Turkey strikes back at Syria after mortar kills five

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Erdogan said:

“This atrocious attack was immediately responded to adequately by our armed forces in the border region, in accordance with rules of engagement.” “Targets were shelled in locations identified by radar.”

Now last time I checked, mortars don’t require radar especially one indiscriminate mortar round.
I think he was saying that Turkish artillery used radar to identify their targets. Presumably, he was saying that Turkey attacked military installations.
So, here are the facts:

Initial reports say Syrian artillery was “shelling” across the border, but that storyline is quickly changed to “a” mortar round.
It is not uncommon, in this modern age, for news articles to be rushed online after an initial report, only to be corrected shortly later as more reporting comes in.
Syria denies responsibility.
I know the Syrian government was investigating the incident, but did they actually come to a conclusion that their military was not involved?
 
Maybe Vladimir Putin needs to warn Turkey, or else start arming the Kurds. Sick the way things escalate. but Turkey has historically been one of the world’s most anti-Christian nations, and I can’t think of much that would be more shameful than to enter a conflict on there side.
 
Maybe Vladimir Putin needs to warn Turkey, or else start arming the Kurds. Sick the way things escalate. but Turkey has historically been one of the world’s most anti-Christian nations, and I can’t think of much that would be more shameful than to enter a conflict on there side.
Stranger things have happened such as (to use the most cliched and obvious example from recent history) when the US entered the Second World War in 1941 on the side of Communist Russia. Parliamentary capitalist democracy and Communism weren’t exactly bosom buddies were they? ts a tricky and dirty business warfare, and as we all know alliances shift like the wind from one time to another.

I do not admire the Turkish government at all, so this is painful for me as well to watch.

That government has increasingly lost its secularism and is becoming more and more Islamized and radicalized again, especially under the premiership of Erdogan. And today, the Turkish state still lives in denial of the Armenian Genocide of WW1 - when over a million and a half Armenian Christians, as well as hundreds of thousands of Greek pontic and other Christians, were mercilessly annihilated by the Young Turk party, who are the ideological predecessors of modern Turkey.

That is something I hold greatly against Turkey.

Nevertheless, if Assad did orchestrate these attacks - and not the rebels - then they have a completely legitimate pretext upon which to wage a war. I cannot deny that.
 
In the case of an unprovoked attack, yes I agree Turkey has the moral right to respond. However, there have been numerous claims that the West and the Gulf States are providing aid to the Rebels from bases in Southern Turkey near the Syrian border. If these bases do in fact exist, I believe Syria has the right to consider them legitimate military targets.
 
Yes, precisely the same sort of ridiculous pact that resulted in WW1. Nation upon nation declaring war on each other all because they had treaties with the two who started it. Such treaties didn’t serve their intended purpose as a deterrent to war then and they won’t today. The Syrian Regime has been backed into a corner and it will lash out with whatever its got until it can’t anymore. We need a tempered response and, so far, I think Turkey has been more than accommodating and patient. I hope they continue to be so.
Actually NATO has worked pretty well. Continental Europe was not overrun by the Soviets. That’s ample proof that it did work.

WW1 wasn’t just about pacts. Pacts alone would not have led to it. There were motives behind the alliances.

Of course from your POV maybe it’s not a good idea, since you provide the bulk of the muscle or heavy lifting as one could say. But then the Soviets would have also tried to contain you, had they overrun continental Europe, you can imagine what a good military ally a Communist Germany (East and West) would have been to the Soviets.
 
Actually NATO has worked pretty well. Continental Europe was not overrun by the Soviets. That’s ample proof that it did work.

WW1 wasn’t just about pacts. Pacts alone would not have led to it. There were motives behind the alliances.
From what I know of history, NATO did work well within the Cold War context in helping to shield Western Europe from Soviet threats. I don’t think that it can be easily compared to the very complex alliance system at work prior to WW1 which, certainly, was not as extensive as NATO nor founded upon the same core principles and shared values. Neither did the world prior to the Great War have to face the threat of a rapidly expanding Soviet superpower that had a penchant for consuming states and turning them into client “republics” under an ideology of state run atheistic, marxist dictatorship.

I do recall though that in 1961, just before the Cuban Missiles Crisis, Kennedy installed 15 Jupiter missiles near Izmir in Turkey, facing the Black Sea across from which lay Russia which took this as threatening to its security. Khrushchev actually spent his holidays just across the sea there with missiles facing right at him that year. Not sure if that was all that wise but my memory of that episode is patchy. I think there was a few “crock ups” so to speak but in general NATO played a very useful and necessary role of containing the Communist world.
 
NATO worked poorly when they bombed Yugoslavia into the stone age at the beginning of winter, because of the bogus claim of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, by the Serbs,

FBI forensic experts found no signs of genocide and the larges mass grave of 2500 dead bodies, consisted mostly of Serb Soldiers, who were killed by KLA rebels and had their uniforms change for civilian clothes before being buried.

The same Albanians which NATO help to bring back into Kosovo, began a campaign of attacking Christians, including Monasteries who had originally helped save them during the war.

Jim
 
The same Albanians which NATO help to bring back into Kosovo, began a campaign of attacking Christians, including Monasteries who had originally helped save them during the war.

Jim
Oh by all means I was against the NATO Bombings. Lots of civilians including young children died there too at the hands of NATO. NATO should not have been used for that purpose. It was of course at the hands of German agitation and Bill Clinton wanted to show who’s boss. No Milosevic would tell him off.

Now Kosovo is a drug den and a great transit for human trafficking. And as you said, the Serbs have mostly been expelled (ethnically cleansed).
 
Turkey’s parliament authorises military action in Syria
Turkey’s parliament has authorised troops to launch cross-border action against Syria, following Syria’s deadly shelling of a Turkish town.
The bill, passed by 320 to 129, also permits strikes against Syrian targets.
But Deputy Prime Minister Besir Atalay insisted this was a deterrent and not a mandate for war.
bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19830928

The authorization will last for one year.
 
And if this conflict between Christian friendly Syria and anti-Christian Turkey escalates seriously, we can expect NATO to come in on the side of the anti-Christians, just as they did in Bosnia (yes I know there were a few Christians on there side), Kosovo, Macedonia, and Libya.
 
Turkish artillery return fire at Syria for fourth day after mortar lands
The mortar landed in a rural area near the village of Guvecci, early on Saturday morning just minutes after intense fighting broke out between the forces of Syrian President Bashar Assad’s regime and the rebels in the village of Harabjoz, in Syria’s Idlib province across the border, the private Dogan news agency reported.
No one was hurt by the mortar, which landed some 500 meters (yards) outside of the village. But Turkish artillery based at an army battalion near Guvecci immediately responded with “counter-fire,” the state-run Anadolu Agency said.
washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/state-run-agency-turkish-artillery-return-fire-at-syria-for-fourth-day-after-mortar-lands/2012/10/06/1ba30c36-0f7a-11e2-ba6c-07bd866eb71a_story.html
 
And if this conflict between Christian friendly Syria and anti-Christian Turkey escalates seriously, we can expect NATO to come in on the side of the anti-Christians, just as they did in Bosnia (yes I know there were a few Christians on there side), Kosovo, Macedonia, and Libya.
Well I’m not so sure I’d call Syria Christian Friendly, especially the rebels who are trying to take over, which are heavily supported by Iran and Al Qaeda. When they win, watch for Christian persecution as we’ve seen in Egypt.

Jim
 
Iran is NOT supporting the rebels in Syria, they are supporting the government, and the rebels have kidnapped a number of Iranians. Syria government has been very pro-Christian for many years. Assad’s top military commander Dawoud Rahija who was assassinated in July, was Greek Orthodox.
 
On Russia Today news, they’re saying that the mortars are coming from an area taken over by Syrian rebels. So hopefully Turkey will get wise to this and not retaliate.
 
On Russia Today news, they’re saying that the mortars are coming from an area taken over by Syrian rebels. So hopefully Turkey will get wise to this and not retaliate.
This has to be verified, however. RT news is not enough to convince me, since the Russians are decidely pro-Assad.

Not saying that this isn’t the case (the rebels may be launching the attacks) however I am not going to make up my own mind based on a biased news agency and neither can the Turkish state until there is clear proof of this evident rather than hearsay or supposition.

I do not think that Turkey is heedless enough to break into open warfare in Syria. What concerns me more is internal conflicts within Turkey, Iran and Syria which could imperil the Middle-east and plunge it into a wider conflict.

Yes, the Turkish government is hardly subtle in expressing its solidarity with the cause of the rebels. Undoubtedly, bases on its land are transferring arms to cross the Turko-Syrian border.

However the Turks desire international action on a diplomatic level, not a unilateral declaration of war. Turkey does not want to intervene militarily.

Do you not recall the muted reaction when its aircraft was brought down by Syrian air defence in the summer? Turkey’s response was as diplomatic, peaceable minded and cautionary as can be.

Prior to the troubles in Syria and the wider Arab world, Turkey had been cozying up to Iran and the Assad regime. It saw Iran, despite its Shi’ite population, as a growing regional power which could co-operate with broader Turkic aims. Erdogan’s more unabashedly Islamic party can be naturally expected to admire many elements of Iranian post-revolutionary society with its firm Muslim foundations.

To the shock of the government, the Turkish flag was burned in the first days of the uprising in Benghazi in Libya. Relations with Iraq have deteriorated badly with the Kurdish terrorist attacks from the Iraqi side of the border. Now the Syrian troubles are causing more difficulties even with public opinion in Turkey, which seems concerned rather than totally approving of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s calls for the removal of the Assad regime.

The Turks do not want war.

As previously stated, I am no fan of the Turkish state (far from it) but I know that neither the government nor the people want a war.

And neither is Syria looking to pick a fight with Turkey. That is the last thing, I would imagine, given that Turkey is a NATO member.

So we must wait, watch and pray that tensions will be cooled.
 
This has to be verified, however. RT news is not enough to convince me, since the Russians are decidely pro-Assad.

Not saying that this isn’t the case (the rebels may be launching the attacks) however I am not going to make up my own mind based on a biased news agency and neither can the Turkish state until there is clear proof of this evident rather than hearsay or supposition.

I do not think that Turkey is heedless enough to break into open warfare in Syria. What concerns me more is internal conflicts within Turkey, Iran and Syria which could imperil the Middle-east and plunge it into a wider conflict.

Yes, the Turkish government is hardly subtle in expressing its solidarity with the cause of the rebels. Undoubtedly, bases on its land are transferring arms to cross the Turko-Syrian border.

However the Turks desire international action on a diplomatic level, not a unilateral declaration of war. Turkey does not want to intervene militarily.

Do you not recall the muted reaction when its aircraft was brought down by Syrian air defence in the summer? Turkey’s response was as diplomatic, peaceable minded and cautionary as can be.

Prior to the troubles in Syria and the wider Arab world, Turkey had been cozying up to Iran and the Assad regime. It saw Iran, despite its Shi’ite population, as a growing regional power which could co-operate with broader Turkic aims. Erdogan’s more unabashedly Islamic party can be naturally expected to admire many elements of Iranian post-revolutionary society with its firm Muslim foundations.

To the shock of the government, the Turkish flag was burned in the first days of the uprising in Benghazi in Libya. Relations with Iraq have deteriorated badly with the Kurdish terrorist attacks from the Iraqi side of the border. Now the Syrian troubles are causing more difficulties even with public opinion in Turkey, which seems concerned rather than totally approving of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s calls for the removal of the Assad regime.

The Turks do not want war.

As previously stated, I am no fan of the Turkish state (far from it) but I know that neither the government nor the people want a war.

And neither is Syria looking to pick a fight with Turkey. That is the last thing, I would imagine, given that Turkey is a NATO member.

So we must wait, watch and pray that tensions will be cooled.
I agree with what you have said and the possible bias of RT news, however in view of your comments it would seem more likely to be the rebels - as it would seem ludicrous that Syria would wish to anger the Turks and start a war that would bring NATO against them.
 
I agree with what you have said and the possible bias of RT news, however in view of your comments it would seem more likely to be the rebels - as it would seem ludicrous that Syria would wish to anger the Turks and start a war that would bring NATO against them.
Yes, I do think its possible that the rebels could be complicit, however it is also possible that Assad’s regime might have fired the mortars. In the fog of war, sometimes rational thought can slip by the way side. Assad has his back pushed up against the wall. He knows that there are likely bases in Turkey from which arms are moving to the rebels. Might not a trigger-happy Syrian general have considered, “lets take these guys out and stop this flow of arms to the enemy”. I think it probable, at least as probable as it being the rebels.

So no, Assad does not want war with Turkey but neither does he want his enemies sitting ducky with a constant stream of arms coming in from across the border. If I were an intelligent, sane dictator of Syria then I would not risk bringing in NATO to simply strike at enemy bases in the sovereign territory of another country with a much larger army and international clout, however who knows what Assad is thinking right now. He’s faced with the greatest nightmare of his tenure and is being attacked from all corners of his country. He might have lost the plot in the midst of all this madness.

I am simply wary of the reporting on RT since it is state-coordinated and decidely anti-Western, pro-Assad in outlook. I thus will not start believing anything until other news agencies pick up on this claim and flesh it out with some concrete evidence.

I am troubled, since I cannot understand why and do not think that that Assad would risk provoking a war with Turkey. There would be no benefit to him short term or long term, and it should sound a death-knell for much of his feeble hold over the country. Not to mention given the current weakness of his armed forces having to fight in some many different parts of the country as the uprising worsens, he would probably not even be able to take out any of the surmised bases. Turkey has the 2nd largest army in NATO. It could unleash a blitzkrieg on Damascus. However, those bases on Turkish land sending arms into the war must be thought about.

If the rebels have done this, I am fully convinced that Turkey will do everything in its power to avoid further escalation. Its current military response (to whomever launched these attacks) is a legitimate defence of its border and civilians in the neighbouring villages, rather than a declaration of war on Assad.
 
Iran is NOT supporting the rebels in Syria, they are supporting the government, and the rebels have kidnapped a number of Iranians. Syria government has been very pro-Christian for many years. Assad’s top military commander Dawoud Rahija who was assassinated in July, was Greek Orthodox.
Yes, Iran is supporting the government, not the rebels.

I stand corrected.

Jim
 
Iran is NOT supporting the rebels in Syria, they are supporting the government, and the rebels have kidnapped a number of Iranians. Syria government has been very pro-Christian for many years. Assad’s top military commander Dawoud Rahija who was assassinated in July, was Greek Orthodox.
Yes, Tehran generally has supported Assads in Syria, but there is a split in the Iranian government over it. In fact, Iran has started inspecting plans to be sure they’\re not carrying arms to Syrian forces.

Right now, the rebels are holding Iranian hostages and threaten to kill them, if the Syrian forces don’t withdraw from areas of Damascus.

Jim
 
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