Turkish court denies abortion to woman who decapitated her rapist

[seekerz]

The woman wants an abortion but an abortion is never justified, not even when it is the result of a rape. Also, she brutally murdered her rapist. And while you might say it was self defense, I can almost certainly say she used excessive force if it was self defense.

Why is it "almost certainly’ excessive? Do you know the circumstances or the weapons she had at hand? This is not the US where most people empathize with a rape victim. In some eastern cultures (not sure for Turkey specifically) a woman is expected to be unable to live with the shame of being raped. So there’s the possibility that it was her life or his…

On another note, this surely has to qualify as “traumatic rape” for those among us who insist that “true rape” must include signs of resistance.

Whatever the truth, I do agree that the baby should not be made to pay for its father’s sins.

 

[Tenofovir]

Getting raped kind of does that to a person.

That’s a subjective assessment. Some people go “postal” over being retrenched while others suffer decades of torture and still pray for their torturers. Killing innocent life because one is angry is not an excuse. Sorry.

I’ve never understood the desire to kill a rapists baby. Yes the guy is a thug. Yes he is evil. Yes rape is wrong. Yes the victim was violated. But the baby didn’t do anything wrong. Out of the evil of rape, something good can come. At least it was not for nothing. And half of the baby is mom’s DNA anyway and all her ancestors before her. Who knows perhaps the father had decent parents too - and maybe they suffer too from their son’s actions. Is there no redemption to come from this? Gosh, even if I was an atheist, I’d consider abortion abhorrent. It seems to me a death penalty in this case, a death for someone totally innocent. Punishment of one simply because his/her father was wicked. Nope. No matter how much I try I can’t make this work. And heck I still think it would be wrong to kill people like the last Russian Tsar and his family even though he sent many innocent people to their death, or Nazi parents’ children. No way.

 

[Tenofovir]

Why is it "almost certainly’ excessive? Do you know the circumstances or the weapons she had at hand? This is not the US where most people empathize with a rape victim. In some eastern cultures (not sure for Turkey specifically) a woman is expected to be unable to live with the shame of being raped. So there’s the possibility that it was her life or his…

On another note, this surely has to qualify as “traumatic rape” for those among us who insist that “true rape” must include signs of resistance.

Whatever the truth, I do agree that the baby should not be made to pay for its father’s sins.

Turkey is a secular nation. Secondly, stabbing someone through the heart vs decapitating him are two different things. The mode of killing in this case is more likely to cause a backlash in a Muslim country than a simple bullet to the head or overdose of tranquilizers.

 

[Tenofovir]

Interesting that in some ways Turkey is more civilized than the US.

You sound surprised. Did you think the Turks are inferior to Americans? God made them differently?

 

[Bill_Martin]

Good for her! Now, the baby, well that’s another story. If she wasn’t able to get emergency help after her rape (which she most likely did not), then there’s not much she can do about it because of the laws where she lives. We should pray for her that this baby may bring peace and joy into her life. Not every woman can do that, and this woman is having tremendous difficulty with it. I pray, whatever comes of it, that she finds peace in her life.

I agree, she is in my prayers. I’m not sure what the adoption process is in Turkey but it’s likely that she could put the baby up or adoption if she is unable to provide proper care, or even if she just doesn’t want to. I’m sure there has to be a couple out there somewhere who would love to adopt a child, and with a case as high profile as this, she might have better luck finding someone than if it was not in the news.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Turkey is a secular nation. Secondly, stabbing someone through the heart vs decapitating him are two different things. The mode of killing in this case is more likely to cause a backlash in a Muslim country than a simple bullet to the head or overdose of tranquilizers.

From what I’ve read, she has a lot of support so I don’t think that widespread backlash is likely. If she had done this in a non-secular Muslim country like Iran, she may be facing death just for opposing a man like that, much less killing him.

 

[Tenofovir]

From what I’ve read, she has a lot of support so I don’t think that widespread backlash is likely. If she had done this in a non-secular Muslim country like Iran, she may be facing death just for opposing a man like that, much less killing him.

I may be wrong but I think there is a qualitative difference between the version of Islam practiced in Iran and the version practiced by the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia and by extension parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. I think women have more rights in Iran and I’d think the rapist would probably face a death sentence.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Are you talking to me? I left a letter out of my name because when you sign up to the forum and choose a screen name you can only (name removed by moderator)ut 15 charachters into the field, and CatholicCrusader has 16 charachters. Hence, I had to pick a letter to leave out.

Make sense?

:doh2: oh my gosh! i never even noticed! i guess my brain just inserted the “i” in there.
well, if it only allows 15 characters you have to leave a letter out somewhere.

 

[JaneGrey]

I have total compassion for her too, and I don’t think I really even blame her for what she did. The culteral norms for punishing crime is different over there. Even the Jews stoned people to death.

But all that still doesn’t condone aborting the baby. The baby didn’t do anything wrong.

I agree about the baby, i was just addressing the issue of the mode in which she killed her rapist.

 

[JaneGrey]

The fact that she was being continuously raped makes her actions not just more understandible, but I admire her courage. She probably couldn’t get help, being that she lived in Turkey.

I agree. I cant imagine going through what she did.

 

[JaneGrey]

That’s a subjective assessment. Some people go “postal” over being retrenched while others suffer decades of torture and still pray for their torturers. Killing innocent life because one is angry is not an excuse. Sorry.

I’ve never understood the desire to kill a rapists baby. Yes the guy is a thug. Yes he is evil. Yes rape is wrong. Yes the victim was violated. But the baby didn’t do anything wrong. Out of the evil of rape, something good can come. At least it was not for nothing. And half of the baby is mom’s DNA anyway and all her ancestors before her. Who knows perhaps the father had decent parents too - and maybe they suffer too from their son’s actions. Is there no redemption to come from this? Gosh, even if I was an atheist, I’d consider abortion abhorrent. It seems to me a death penalty in this case, a death for someone totally innocent. Punishment of one simply because his/her father was wicked. Nope. No matter how much I try I can’t make this work. And heck I still think it would be wrong to kill people like the last Russian Tsar and his family even though he sent many innocent people to their death, or Nazi parents’ children. No way.

Sorry, this is a subject I dont care too much to be objective over. Maybe if no one ever got raped, we all wouldnt have to have this conversation would we? And the rapist may not have deserved to be killed ( I dont know the whole story) but he was certainly not an innocent life. If you think I was talking about the baby, I was not.

I think the vast majority of people who think that rape is wrong, but have not been raped themselves, think of it in an abstract way. We all know murder, etc is wrong but until something similar happens to you or someone close to you it is hard to comprehend the reality of it. I used to think that rape was a terrible thing, but no where close to murder. A few incidences (including, I have to admit, a particularly graphic yet realistic scene in a movie) have made me think otherwise. Personally, I now think of rape as being like an unsuccessful murder where the victim just has to live with the memories.

I dont mean to sound hoity toity and I dont want to speak for rape victims. Certainly every experience is subjective, but that is precisely why there is no ‘right’ way to react to something like this. We have laws in place to help prevent mob violence, but I just dont think most people have the right to condemn a person for what they do in the aftermath of being raped.

Regarding your point about babies conceived with rape, I wasn’t even going to touch that but I will say this. The pro-life movement will not win over anyone by pretending that getting pregnant from rape is the same as getting pregnant any other way. We have to acknowledge the the tragedy of it, show compassion for the victim, and then go on from there.

 

[seekerz]

Sorry, this is a subject I dont care too much to be objective over. Maybe if no one ever got raped, we all wouldnt have to have this conversation would we? And the rapist may not have deserved to be killed ( I dont know the whole story) but he was certainly not an innocent life. If you think I was talking about the baby, I was not.

I think the vast majority of people who think that rape is wrong, but have not been raped themselves, think of it in an abstract way. We all know murder, etc is wrong but until something similar happens to you or someone close to you it is hard to comprehend the reality of it. I used to think that rape was a terrible thing, but no where close to murder. A few incidences (including, I have to admit, a particularly graphic yet realistic scene in a movie) have made me think otherwise. Personally, I now think of rape as being like an unsuccessful murder where the victim just has to live with the memories.

I dont mean to sound hoity toity and I dont want to speak for rape victims. Certainly every experience is subjective, but that is precisely why there is no ‘right’ way to react to something like this. We have laws in place to help prevent mob violence, but I just dont think most people have the right to condemn a person for what they do in the aftermath of being raped.

Regarding your point about babies conceived with rape, I wasn’t even going to touch that but I will say this. The pro-life movement will not win over anyone by pretending that getting pregnant from rape is the same as getting pregnant any other way. We have to acknowledge the the tragedy of it, show compassion for the victim, and then go on from there.

The only way to counter the false ‘compassion’ of those who believe that rape justifies abortion, is to exhibit real compassion - for both the rape victim and the baby. I do agree with you that these issues are often discussed in a very abstract way, sometimes with the rape part being downplayed over the abortion concern.

In any society, the aftermath rape is determined to a large extent by cultural norms. I remember reading an article about a young Asian woman who camped outside her rapist’s house to shame him into marrying her - as that was the only way she could redeem her lost honor in the eyes of society. Most rape victims elsewhere would consider that the ultimate punishment!

So reaction to rape, in addition to being an intensely emotional issue, is also dictated by culture and if we wish to win this culture war need to find a way to stand firmly with the victim while defending the baby’s from harm. That is not an easy position to maintain in our present social milieu, but it is the right one.

Personally, I see no reason why the Morning-after-pill would not be actively promoted as a preferable option for rape victims, given that the risk of disrupting the reproductive process post-fertilization remains scientifically unproven. That surely has to be better than accepting a rape exception to abortion.

 

[Rence]

Sorry, this is a subject I dont care too much to be objective over. Maybe if no one ever got raped, we all wouldnt have to have this conversation would we? And the rapist may not have deserved to be killed ( I dont know the whole story) but he was certainly not an innocent life. If you think I was talking about the baby, I was not.

I think the vast majority of people who think that rape is wrong, but have not been raped themselves, think of it in an abstract way. We all know murder, etc is wrong but until something similar happens to you or someone close to you it is hard to comprehend the reality of it. I used to think that rape was a terrible thing, but no where close to murder. A few incidences (including, I have to admit, a particularly graphic yet realistic scene in a movie) have made me think otherwise. Personally, I now think of rape as being like an unsuccessful murder where the victim just has to live with the memories.

I dont mean to sound hoity toity and I dont want to speak for rape victims. Certainly every experience is subjective, but that is precisely why there is no ‘right’ way to react to something like this. We have laws in place to help prevent mob violence, but I just dont think most people have the right to condemn a person for what they do in the aftermath of being raped.

Regarding your point about babies conceived with rape, I wasn’t even going to touch that but I will say this. The pro-life movement will not win over anyone by pretending that getting pregnant from rape is the same as getting pregnant any other way. We have to acknowledge the the tragedy of it, show compassion for the victim, and then go on from there.

Very well said!

 

[snowguru]

It’s best that people not judge Turks by what you read in press/media. News is about making things interesting. Unless 1 lives in Turkey and knows what happens there by 1st view, using newspaper article as this 1 here is bad idea. In Turkey it’s a crime for a man to hit his wife or girlfriend, so it’s wrong to generalize about Moslems by what you’ve read. There are Turkish women who work in jobs such as engineering, accounting, teaching, etc.

With this woman, my guess is that this was an acquaintance rape case-was this man her boyfriend Rape/sex abuse cases are almost always he says she says where woman will say that the man forced & or used criminal threats to get sex while man will say that the woman agreed by doing acts both agreed to while not doing what both said no. Incidentally with rape/sex abuse, it’s possible for a woman or man to 1st agree to have sex and change mind by saying no & it’s also possible for a woman or man to 1st say no but then voluntarily change mind and decide to do it. Sex acts become rape/sex abuse when force and or criminal threats are used to get it. Finally most Moslems if not mistaken are pro-life on abortion. Catholics must know Moslems by knowing them personally & not conclude by what we read in press often by journalist who has never been to Turkey.