Turn for the worst

[Jay417]

Surely, this is not the first time her feelings have ever been hurt in her life Has she forgiven you or others in the past when they have hurt her feelings? If so, it sounds as if what was actually said was something that cut her to her very core, whether you intended for it to or not. It’s like the “words and toothpaste analogy”…one you squirt it out, you can’t get it back in. I’m really sorry for you both in this. I’ve been hurt that deeply by people before and when you are still raw from it, forgiveness is hard to conceive. Honestly, time and intentional action on your part are the only things that are going to heal that gaping wound. The key word here is TIME.

There is a book called “The Love Dare” that is extremely popular in Protestant circles (the book is the basis of the movie “Fireproof”) that I would HIGHLY suggest you pick up a copy from Amazon or LifeWay. It is a 40-day “love dare” process of showing love to your spouse, but THE KEY is to not let your spouse see the book or know what you are even doing. Each day has a devotional and a challenge at the end. It also has a place for journaling. Just finish out the 40 days and see what happens. I would caution you against starting the “dare” immediately, though. Give it a couple of weeks so she is not suspicious that you are up to something

For instance, the “dare” for Day 1 is to say nothing negative to your spouse at all. The devotional is “Love is patient.”

Day 2 builds on Day 1 so you repeat the Day 1 challenge but add one unexpected gesture as an act of kindness.

I beg you, go find that book somewhere and at least take a look at it.

I think what hurt her the most is when I told her she was breaking our sacrament by giving me an ultimatum of no kids or no marriage. Also, I was raw from the whole ordeal and said I couldn’t trust her for a while.

She keeps throwing that at me over and over and over anyway. I’ve never read the book, but I am in the middle of something like that now. For the past few weeks I’ve added an extra hug per day, made her a snack for when she comes home after work when I’m here. Did all the laundry on “her” day. Left a tiny gift or two in special places. Planted flowers she loves around our porch, also left her a note or two just saying hi. I thought it was really helping until last night.

 

[Jay417]

Ouch. That’s horrible! Praying for you, your wife, and your marriage. :console:

Yeah it hurt a bit. I won’t lie. She can be a cold person sometimes. She cut all ties with her parents years ago due to previous hurts and grudges. I urged her to try and find peace with them, but she considers them dead. Same thing with bad friends. She is really able to write people out of her life.

 

[Et_Cetera]

What’s more important you: kids or your wife? You need to accept that you might not be able to have both. Don’t keep pestering her with the kids thing. She’s the one who will have to actually go through the pregnancy, keep in mind. If you have a kid and it’s not something she really wants to do, have you considered the nightmare that could arise for everyone involved?

My best guess for the situation is that she’s bored, and the thought of being a suburban mom seems even more boring. I’m not saying that suburban moms are all bad, boring people, but that lifestyle is certainly and understandably not for everyone. She’s going to bars and clubs and talking about having more fun…because she wants to have more fun in life. She’s looking for something. I’m not saying it’s all your fault, but no one in this thread has gotten to hear her side, and that’s something that everyone needs to keep in mind.

You can’t have everything. No one can. If kids are more important, then let her go. Find someone else; don’t waste your time or hers any longer. If she’s more important, then tell her that you don’t want to force her to do something that she doesn’t want to do. And then mean it and don’t badger her any longer. You have to make your decisions and be confident in them.

Sorry for being so blunt, but dancing around the issues won’t help. Also, try just focusing on the present for a little bit. If you’re serious about making things work, and you think that she is too, then could you possibly plan something like a vacation? A little break from everything might work wonders.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Yeah it hurt a bit. I won’t lie. She can be a cold person sometimes. She cut all ties with her parents years ago due to previous hurts and grudges. I urged her to try and find peace with them, but she considers them dead. Same thing with bad friends. She is really able to write people out of her life.

Now that is actually a bit more of a real red flag. You didn’t consider this before you got married?

Edit: To be honest, you both sound like you have some issues to be worked out.

 

[slh3016]

Yeah it hurt a bit. I won’t lie. She can be a cold person sometimes. She cut all ties with her parents years ago due to previous hurts and grudges. I urged her to try and find peace with them, but she considers them dead. Same thing with bad friends. She is really able to write people out of her life.

Hmmmm…….now that would have been helpful info from the very beginning

That changes the ballgame a little, don’t you think? If she can’t forgive easily and people “die” to her if her feelings are hurt, this is a definite [SIGN]RED FLAG[/SIGN].

 

[Jay417]

Hmmmm…….now that would have been helpful info from the very beginning

That changes the ballgame a little, don’t you think? If she can’t forgive easily and people “die” to her if her feelings are hurt, this is a definite [SIGN]RED FLAG[/SIGN].

No it did not trip a flag because it happened two years into our marriage not before. We had three years together before marriage, and she was so sweet and gentle. She loved kids and gushed about wanting them, she was close with her family too. After marriage she stopped having much contact with her parents and told me they had been abusive and were drug dealers and she wanted to have a buffer zone of time. Soon she decided no contact at all, and some friends from college also got tossed aside due to old grudges.

Yes I find it odd and I try and get her to work on it.

As for the fun thing, we do go out and have fun. I love to go places, she was always the homebody who would rather watch tv. We have a road trip planned for this weekend in fact.

I accept that I may never have kids. Do I like it? No. Can I live with it in order to keep her? Yes.

 

[bitterhope]

No it did not trip a flag because it happened two years into our marriage not before. We had three years together before marriage, and she was so sweet and gentle. She loved kids and gushed about wanting them, she was close with her family too. After marriage she stopped having much contact with her parents and told me they had been abusive and were drug dealers and she wanted to have a buffer zone of time. Soon she decided no contact at all, and some friends from college also got tossed aside due to old grudges.

Yes I find it odd and I try and get her to work on it.

As for the fun thing, we do go out and have fun. I love to go places, she was always the homebody who would rather watch tv. We have a road trip planned for this weekend in fact.

I accept that I may never have kids. Do I like it? No. Can I live with it in order to keep her? Yes.

If you were a woman, people would be telling you this is abuse and you need to protect yourself. Since you are a man, very few people are saying that to you and most are instead making excuses for your wife–both in this thread and in your other ones. I’m telling you know, as a woman with health issues that has lost children, your wife is an abusive manipulator and you need to protect yourself. You do not deserve this. I don’t for one second believe what she’s doing has anything at all to do with miscarriages at 3 weeks gestation. She is being cruel because you are allowing her to get away with it. Women can and do abuse men, and in recent years it seems to be happening more often. You are a child of God and you deserve love and respect. I’m sorry you are going through this. Please protect yourself because you deserve to be able to be loved unconditionally for the way God created you instead of for how high and fast you can jump each time your wife changes her mind or wants something.

 

[Jay417]

If you were a woman, people would be telling you this is abuse and you need to protect yourself. Since you are a man, very few people are saying that to you and most are instead making excuses for your wife–both in this thread and in your other ones. I’m telling you know, as a woman with health issues that has lost children, your wife is an abusive manipulator and you need to protect yourself. You do not deserve this. I don’t for one second believe what she’s doing has anything at all to do with miscarriages at 3 weeks gestation. She is being cruel because you are allowing her to get away with it. Women can and do abuse men, and in recent years it seems to be happening more often. You are a child of God and you deserve love and respect. I’m sorry you are going through this. Please protect yourself because you deserve to be able to be loved unconditionally for the way God created you instead of for how high and fast you can jump each time your wife changes her mind or wants something.

Thank you for a moment of kindness.

I am guilty of indulging her whims. I guess I always felt I had to allow her to have her way or she would claim I was being controlling or sexist. I stood up to her about this at first and it was three days of hell. She was relentless with her mental abuse and yes two times she physically scratched and clawed my face for looking too sad. Why did I not mention it? Because I am ashamed and scared.

I did a little family research and discovered my wife’s mother and aunt have Bipolar 1. I think this could play a role.

 

[kptrs]

If you were a woman, people would be telling you this is abuse and you need to protect yourself. Since you are a man, very few people are saying that to you and most are instead making excuses for your wife–both in this thread and in your other ones. I’m telling you know, as a woman with health issues that has lost children, your wife is an abusive manipulator and you need to protect yourself. You do not deserve this. I don’t for one second believe what she’s doing has anything at all to do with miscarriages at 3 weeks gestation. She is being cruel because you are allowing her to get away with it. Women can and do abuse men, and in recent years it seems to be happening more often. You are a child of God and you deserve love and respect. I’m sorry you are going through this. Please protect yourself because you deserve to be able to be loved unconditionally for the way God created you instead of for how high and fast you can jump each time your wife changes her mind or wants something.

 

[kptrs]

Thank you for a moment of kindness.

I am guilty of indulging her whims. I guess I always felt I had to allow her to have her way or she would claim I was being controlling or sexist. I stood up to her about this at first and it was three days of hell. She was relentless with her mental abuse and yes two times she physically scratched and clawed my face for looking too sad. Why did I not mention it? Because I am ashamed and scared.

I did a little family research and discovered my wife’s mother and aunt have Bipolar 1. I think this could play a role.

This is abuse. No question about it. You need to get help. Praying for you.

 

[pianistclare]

I am trying to right my marriage in every way I know how, by doing things that I know make her feel loved and appreciated. She asked for that. Now she is asking for freedom and space, so I am giving that too. I know I have been wild in posting, but this is a painful and wildly confusing time for me.

I made an appointment with a therapist in my area for both of us tomorrow afternoon.

Also, I did my soul searching and I can honestly answer that even if we never have children or adopt I still love my wife and will not give up on our marriage. I told her those exact words and her response was, “I don’t know if I can stay in our marriage after your emotional outburst when all this began. You hurt me deeply, and now I don’t know if I can love you anymore”

**I told her, “we hurt each other badly, I accept my responsibility in it and apologize with all that I am, and I promise we will get through this”

She says she wants to try, but doesn’t feel she will ever love me again.

So everyone is on the same page I am guilty of saying I wasn’t ready to give up on kids, that I felt she lied to me in the past, and that she was harming our sacrament. I did not curse or call her names or make threats, in tears of frustration I told her those simple facts, and then when she said she was relieved by the miscarriages I cried and asked her if sex scared her, and she secretly hated that too? Later on she approached me about sex and I told her I wasn’t sure I could be sexual with her until I felt better about things. That’s what she is so angry about, those sentences she says she cannot forgive.**

THINK before you blurt out. Even in your posting history, you have a tendency to go from 0 to 60 pretty fast, and with lots of drama.
You need therapy to control your own outbursts. I suspect a lot of her remarks are counter remarks to your crying, etc eek

Spouses should be able to talk rationally, calmly, even when hurt. Escalating into hurtful remarks, and things like “you’re harming our sacrament” don’t help.
Get therapy.
I would definitely not be so consumed with having children at the moment. Have a good marriage first. Kids don’t want, like, or deserve this much drama.

It just is all too…well…odd.

 

[Lorelei12]

I am trying to strike a balance between controlling my wife completely and allowing her some life experiences that are different from my own. We set a time in which she must be home, and agreed to check in via phone throughout the evening, and she promised she would abide by it. She is not a bad person, and because of that I really do trust her. I go out every Monday night and bowl with a local group. My wife usually works Mondays but attends from time to time. She looks at going to a club or concert with her friend “maybe once every two or three months” as a similar thing. She did invite me to accompany them on future outings.

You “allow” her some life experiences? She can’t go out with her friends without checking in with you the whole time? She promised to “abide” by your rules? There is a weird dynamic going on in your marriage. You sound like her father, not her husband.

I read through your other thread, and this one. From what I have gathered, after you and your wife were married, you tried to have children and she had some miscarriages. She then later on told you that she did not want to “try” anymore, meaning she didn’t want to track her fertility but rather just see what happened. She was also diagnosed with thyroid issues. You also said in the other thread that she never refuses intimacy. So I am having trouble understanding why you are putting so much pressure on her. If she is not becoming pregnant what exactly is she supposed to do to make you happy? It sounds to me like all of the pressure you’ve put on her has become unbearable for her.

She is saying some hurtful things to you, that is true. Whether she means them or not, who knows. It just doesn’t make sense that someone who was eager for children would suddenly seem to change her mind and say she never wanted them. It seems more likely that she is struggling with her infertility, scared of more miscarriages, and feels blamed for it all by you. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the impression I get from your posts. I understand how heartbreaking it must be to hear the things she is saying, but are you certain that she isn’t lashing out mainly because she is in emotional turmoil? She cannot make herself pregnant, so if she isn’t refusing intimacy and she isn’t becoming pregnant, exactly what more do you want her to do?

 

[pianistclare]

You “allow” her some life experiences? She can’t go out with her friends without checking in with you the whole time? She promised to “abide” by your rules? There is a weird dynamic going on in your marriage. You sound like her father, not her husband.

I read through your other thread, and this one. From what I have gathered, after you and your wife were married, you tried to have children and she had some miscarriages. She then later on told you that she did not want to “try” anymore, meaning she didn’t want to track her fertility but rather just see what happened. She was also diagnosed with thyroid issues. You also said in the other thread that she never refuses intimacy. So I am having trouble understanding why you are putting so much pressure on her. If she is not becoming pregnant what exactly is she supposed to do to make you happy? It sounds to me like all of the pressure you’ve put on her has become unbearable for her.

She is saying some hurtful things to you, that is true. Whether she means them or not, who knows. It just doesn’t make sense that someone who was eager for children would suddenly seem to change her mind and say she never wanted them. It seems more likely that she is struggling with her infertility, scared of more miscarriages, and feels blamed for it all by you. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the impression I get from your posts. I understand how heartbreaking it must be to hear the things she is saying, but are you certain that she isn’t lashing out mainly because she is in emotional turmoil? She cannot make herself pregnant, so if she isn’t refusing intimacy and she isn’t becoming pregnant, exactly what more do you want her to do?

yes.

 

[slh3016]

No it did not trip a flag because it happened two years into our marriage not before. We had three years together before marriage, and she was so sweet and gentle. She loved kids and gushed about wanting them, she was close with her family too. After marriage she stopped having much contact with her parents and told me they had been abusive and were drug dealers and she wanted to have a buffer zone of time. Soon she decided no contact at all, and some friends from college also got tossed aside due to old grudges.

Yes I find it odd and I try and get her to work on it.

As for the fun thing, we do go out and have fun. I love to go places, she was always the homebody who would rather watch tv. We have a road trip planned for this weekend in fact.

I accept that I may never have kids. Do I like it? No. Can I live with it in order to keep her? Yes.

So, in the course of 5 years, she has “lost” her parents and lost two babies? I have had MANY ups and downs with my own parents over the years and at one point, we were estranged AT WHICH TIME I also suffered a miscarriage followed by infertility. That was the deepest, darkest hole I’d ever been in in my life. I was on the brink of losing my sanity and NO ONE could take that pain away. It sounds as if your wife has not properly dealt or grieved any of it and is putting up walls as a coping mechanism. My grief manifested itself most often as extreme anger.

Plus, if she has a family history of bipolar that may be manifesting itself right now, she’s got a LONG road ahead of her to recovery.

Don’t mention kids to her for a very long time (possibly ever). Honestly, neither of you are in a healthy mindset to even think about them right now.

 

[Xantippe]

Thank you for a moment of kindness.

I am guilty of indulging her whims. I guess I always felt I had to allow her to have her way or she would claim I was being controlling or sexist. I stood up to her about this at first and it was three days of hell. She was relentless with her mental abuse and yes two times she physically scratched and clawed my face for looking too sad. Why did I not mention it? Because I am ashamed and scared.

I did a little family research and discovered my wife’s mother and aunt have Bipolar 1. I think this could play a role.

Why do you want to bring children (either biological or adopted) into a home with so much drama and abuse and possible mental illness? If your wife were just a babysitter from Craigslist and she had the same exact behavioral profile, would you leave children with her?

Fix your marriage if it can be fixed but don’t bring children into your situation, either biological or adopted unless things get much better and stay much better for a reasonable length of time.

(Edited to finish last sentence.)

 

[Jay417]

You “allow” her some life experiences? She can’t go out with her friends without checking in with you the whole time? She promised to “abide” by your rules? There is a weird dynamic going on in your marriage. You sound like her father, not her husband.

I read through your other thread, and this one. From what I have gathered, after you and your wife were married, you tried to have children and she had some miscarriages. She then later on told you that she did not want to “try” anymore, meaning she didn’t want to track her fertility but rather just see what happened. She was also diagnosed with thyroid issues. You also said in the other thread that she never refuses intimacy. So I am having trouble understanding why you are putting so much pressure on her. If she is not becoming pregnant what exactly is she supposed to do to make you happy? It sounds to me like all of the pressure you’ve put on her has become unbearable for her.

She is saying some hurtful things to you, that is true. Whether she means them or not, who knows. It just doesn’t make sense that someone who was eager for children would suddenly seem to change her mind and say she never wanted them. It seems more likely that she is struggling with her infertility, scared of more miscarriages, and feels blamed for it all by you. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the impression I get from your posts. I understand how heartbreaking it must be to hear the things she is saying, but are you certain that she isn’t lashing out mainly because she is in emotional turmoil? She cannot make herself pregnant, so if she isn’t refusing intimacy and she isn’t becoming pregnant, exactly what more do you want her to do?

I want her to be honest with me, I am honest with her. also, yes we both check in with each other before we go out separately. I am not her master, but I am her husband, and I have a right to know what she is doing. She is my wife and I never go places without her knowing the details. The rules we set are rules WE set, for example, check in with each other when we get to the place and we when we are leaving. Don’t drink unless you’re sure you won’t have to drive, we both make sure to always have our phones on just in case. We know each other’s friends etc… so yes like all marriages there are rules that BOTH spouses set.

What I think everyone fails to see is this fact. In all our engagement and marriage she constantly wanted kids both biological and adopted, then suddenly no to biological and now no to adopted. I ask repeatedly to tell me what made her change her mind and she claims she never wanted them at all and lied to me. This behavior is not my wife. Neither is her getting dramatic or physical with me. She is so much better than this. Also, for years I worked toward being ready for kids with her, we have a home, property, savings etc…and now she changes her mind, so yeah I was hurt and confused.

 

[Jay417]

So, in the course of 5 years, she has “lost” her parents and lost two babies? I have had MANY ups and downs with my own parents over the years and at one point, we were estranged AT WHICH TIME I also suffered a miscarriage followed by infertility. That was the deepest, darkest hole I’d ever been in in my life. I was on the brink of losing my sanity and NO ONE could take that pain away. It sounds as if your wife has not properly dealt or grieved any of it and is putting up walls as a coping mechanism. My grief manifested itself most often as extreme anger.

Plus, if she has a family history of bipolar that may be manifesting itself right now, she’s got a LONG road ahead of her to recovery.

Don’t mention kids to her for a very long time (possibly ever). Honestly, neither of you are in a healthy mindset to even think about them right now.

Last night she came to me after getting home from being with her friends and she was happy and being her usual self. She said to me, “I’m sorry I’ve been so horrible and immature to you lately, I realize I shouldn’t have lashed out at you so much. I know in my heart I love you and us and I do want to adopt in the future, but I see that I am not mature enough yet. Can you give me a year to get myself where I want to be?” I told her simply, “I love you and I want to stay together and make things healthy again. We have a great foundation sweetie, we just hit a big crack this time, but we can become stronger now. As for adoption let’s put that on hold for a year or two and see how we feel then.” She then told me she wants to see her own therapist along with the couples session, because she recognized her possible inherited mental issues.

I see this as a possible turning point, and I intend to capitalize on it by getting her to a therapist and working on healing her and us. It pains me to wait even longer for kids, but I can do it to help her. Plus I agree she needs more time to get herself together, and during that time I will work on my own issues like controlling my emotions in the moment.

 

[Lorelei12]

What I think everyone fails to see is this fact. In all our engagement and marriage she constantly wanted kids both biological and adopted, then suddenly no to biological and now no to adopted. I ask repeatedly to tell me what made her change her mind and she claims she never wanted them at all and lied to me. This behavior is not my wife. Neither is her getting dramatic or physical with me. She is so much better than this. Also, for years I worked toward being ready for kids with her, we have a home, property, savings etc…and now she changes her mind, so yeah I was hurt and confused.

I do see that this is a very radical change of heart, which is why I wondered whether she really even meant those things.

What I still do not understand is- if she told you she did not want children, yet was not doing anything to try and prevent conception and did not refuse intimacy, then why the pushiness on your part? It is one thing to say “I do not want kids anymore and I am taking the pill” and it is quite another to say “I have thyroid issues and have had miscarriages. I do not want to chart or use ovulation predictors anymore”. Couples are not obligated to “try” to conceive in this way, only to accept children that come. It seems to me like she did chart, she did see doctors, and she did what she could. Who could blame her for wanting to stop all that, after a few years? I can imagine that if I were in her situation, I wouldn’t want my husband making me feel worse about something I could not control. I think that’s terrible.

Couples are also not required to adopt if they cannot conceive. Adoption is a special calling, and not one that is for everyone. It sounds like, from your most recent post, she is open to discussing adoption. I do hope that you both are able to benefit from the counseling you have arranged.

 

[Xantippe]

Last night she came to me after getting home from being with her friends and she was happy and being her usual self. She said to me, “I’m sorry I’ve been so horrible and immature to you lately, I realize I shouldn’t have lashed out at you so much. I know in my heart I love you and us and I do want to adopt in the future, but I see that I am not mature enough yet. Can you give me a year to get myself where I want to be?” I told her simply, “I love you and I want to stay together and make things healthy again. We have a great foundation sweetie, we just hit a big crack this time, but we can become stronger now. As for adoption let’s put that on hold for a year or two and see how we feel then.” She then told me she wants to see her own therapist along with the couples session, because she recognized her possible inherited mental issues.

I see this as a possible turning point, and I intend to capitalize on it by getting her to a therapist and working on healing her and us. It pains me to wait even longer for kids, but I can do it to help her. Plus I agree she needs more time to get herself together, and during that time I will work on my own issues like controlling my emotions in the moment.

Very good!

 

[Magdalen2013]

I am trying to strike a balance between controlling my wife completely and allowing her some life experiences that are different from my own. .

THAT is the root of your problem – didn’t anyone ever teach you that neither partner is supposed to “control” the other? No wonder she wants out! There are some women who’d have put you six feet under for that attitude.

*Women were created from the rib of man to be beside him, not from his head to top him, nor from his feet to be trampled by him, but from under his arm to be protected by him, near to his heart to be loved by him.”
*
― Matthew Henry, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament

I have seen nothing loving in your statements – and I fear for any child that would have to be subject to your “control.” From where I’m standing, while both of you need counseling YOU’RE the one that needs it most.

LEADERSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL CONTROL – a true leader inspires those he leads to follow him.