Turn for the worst

[Jay417]

THAT is the root of your problem – didn’t anyone ever teach you that neither partner is supposed to “control” the other? No wonder she wants out! There are some women who’d have put you six feet under for that attitude.

*Women were created from the rib of man to be beside him, not from his head to top him, nor from his feet to be trampled by him, but from under his arm to be protected by him, near to his heart to be loved by him.”
*
― Matthew Henry, An Exposition of the Old and New Testament

I have seen nothing loving in your statements – and I fear for any child that would have to be subject to your “control.” From where I’m standing, while both of you need counseling YOU’RE the one that needs it most.

LEADERSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL CONTROL – a true leader inspires those he leads to follow him.

All marriages have boundaries set by both partners. She and I work together and these boundaries are a creation of the two of us. I would never control my wife in such a brutish way. I realize the connotation of the word. I used it poorly. I only meant that I am learning new ways to respect and have her respect our mutual boundaries while also changing them to fit her needs.

Please understand that I LOATHE men and women both that rule or lord over their spouses

 

[pianistclare]

All marriages have boundaries set by both partners. She and I work together and these boundaries are a creation of the two of us. I would never control my wife in such a brutish way. I realize the connotation of the word. I used it poorly. I only meant that I am learning new ways to respect and have her respect our mutual boundaries while also changing them to fit her needs.

Please understand that I LOATHE men and women both that rule or lord over their spouses

Readers can only go by what YOU write.
Your writing suggests otherwise.
Maybe it’s not true, as you say.
But your propensity for drama and hand wringing, tears, etc. makes you sound a bit unstable yourself.
You’ll not like that people say these things, but the bottom line is…if your approach fails with strangers…how much more so with your wife?
Something to think about.

 

[Jay417]

Yes I am or was emotional about giving up children. Can any of you claim you would not be?

Talked to a counselor together yesterday, non church. Wife says no children ever or divorce. she says she cannot compromise. told counselor she loves me and our marriage but wants divorce if I can’t give up on kids. said she needs to live as both single and married. Couselor suggested I have to do as she asks or grant divorce and move on. Going to a church counselor as soon as priest calls back with dates.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes I am or was emotional about giving up children. Can any of you claim you would not be?

Talked to a counselor together yesterday, non church. Wife says no children ever or divorce. she says she cannot compromise. told counselor she loves me and our marriage but wants divorce if I can’t give up on kids. said she needs to live as both single and married. Couselor suggested I have to do as she asks or grant divorce and move on. Going to a church counselor as soon as priest calls back with dates.

I think there are many people who for whatever reason are childless. Their lives are NOT over. And they can lead very meaningful and fulfilling lives. Think of those who are unable to conceive. Are their marriages worthless? That’s a sad way to look at it.
I think you have a bigger problem that whether or not you have children.
And yes, you’d better see a priest asap. She’s about to bolt.

 

[wild_thing]

Um, yeah…your marriage situation, OP, is too complicated and melodramatic for a forum format. You say that you are both going to see a therapist. That’s good. Stick with that. I’ve read through this thread (but not your other ones) and this whole thing is fraught with angst and drama. You both sound a little emotionally immature and volatile. Talk with this therapist and establish a good foundation for your marriage first, THEN you can think about children. Right now your marriage is in no way ready for the upheaval children would bring to it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think there are many people who for whatever reason are childless. Their lives are NOT over. And they can lead very meaningful and fulfilling lives. Think of those who are unable to conceive. Are their marriages worthless? That’s a sad way to look at it.
I think you have a bigger problem that whether or not you have children.
And yes, you’d better see a priest asap. She’s about to bolt.

Honestly, I think she has bolted. She is making demands and threatening divorce. The OP only sees himself as the victim so I doubt that he will be able to curb those demands. NO children and what sounds like the possibility of an “open Marriage” are really the last steps in her actions. Along with counseling no matter what because I think the OP has some serious issues that he does not even see, I would suggest the hiring of a good attorney. At least no kids will be hurt by these erratic and strange actions on both parts…

 

[pianistclare]

Honestly, I think she has bolted. She is making demands and threatening divorce. The OP only sees himself as the victim so I doubt that he will be able to curb those demands. NO children and what sounds like the possibility of an “open Marriage” are really the last steps in her actions. Along with counseling no matter what because I think the OP has some serious issues that he does not even see, I would suggest the hiring of a good attorney. At least no kids will be hurt by these erratic and strange actions on both parts…

Yes. It could be that she wants HIM to file…I’m sure she sees that as the optimum way to get out of the marriage. All of these ultimatums…that she knows he won’t go for. That’s entirely possible, yes. He does need good representation.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes I am or was emotional about giving up children. Can any of you claim you would not be?

Talked to a counselor together yesterday, non church. Wife says no children ever or divorce. she says she cannot compromise. told counselor she loves me and our marriage but wants divorce if I can’t give up on kids. said she needs to live as both single and married. Couselor suggested I have to do as she asks or grant divorce and move on. Going to a church counselor as soon as priest calls back with dates.

. said she needs to live as both single and married.

Does this mean she wants to be able to have other partners?

OP: There is no way we can help you. Just none. Sorry. But it sounds like both of you have some real issues that need to be dealt with. I hope you seek the help you need.

 

[heidi_storage]

Honestly, I think she has bolted. She is making demands and threatening divorce. The OP only sees himself as the victim so I doubt that he will be able to curb those demands. NO children and what sounds like the possibility of an “open Marriage” are really the last steps in her actions. Along with counseling no matter what because I think the OP has some serious issues that he does not even see, I would suggest the hiring of a good attorney. At least no kids will be hurt by these erratic and strange actions on both parts…

Agree. I am sorry, OP.

 

[underacloud]

Yes I am…emotional about giving up children.

she says she cannot compromise.

What exactly would a compromise look like in this situation?

You either have children (natural or adopted) or you don’t have children. There is no in between.

You seem - still - to be unable to accept this and thus your wife is feeling scared, pressured, and backed into a corner. It is quite atypical for a woman to feel this way (not wanting children), but instead of trying to support her and understand her better, you are more concerned with how she is wronging you and your marriage - depriving you of the right of fatherhood. (that’s my impression anyway).

It seems that your marriage is doomed if you cannot get past this issue of children. As others have said, it may be doomed anyway, sorry. But, if you wish to save it, it seems clear enough that your only chance is to drop the issue of children entirely.

 

[Jay417]

What exactly would a compromise look like in this situation?

You either have children (natural or adopted) or you don’t have children. There is no in between.

You seem - still - to be unable to accept this and thus your wife is feeling scared, pressured, and backed into a corner. It is quite atypical for a woman to feel this way (not wanting children), but instead of trying to support her and understand her better, you are more concerned with how she is wronging you and your marriage - depriving you of the right of fatherhood. (that’s my impression anyway).

It seems that your marriage is doomed if you cannot get past this issue of children. As others have said, it may be doomed anyway, sorry. But, if you wish to save it, it seems clear enough that your only chance is to drop the issue of children entirely.

I am struggling with this so much. I am trying to give up on children, but it is hard to deny that I want them, and that for all this time she claimed to as well. I am still shocked I guess.

I decided to ask her yesterday directly to tell me what is really going on, What she is really afraid of or averse too. I was firm and would not let her run away from the question and truth came out finally. She has a past filled with parental abuse as I mentioned, but the depth and scope are far larger and deeper than I understood in the past. She admitted she still wants kids, and did before, but that her fears are too big to have them. She thinks that kids kill a happy marriage, because all her life her parents claimed she ruined theirs by being born. Good God. I assured her that isn’t true, but agreed to drop the subject of children and help her get to a healthier place regarding her past.

She came to me hours later in love and affection telling me she felt I finally understood her. She even said that her true feelings on adoption are that one day once she is healthier about the subject she greatly desires adopting an older child that has little chance of being adopted. She feels those are the most in need, and the ones she can more relate to. Now, I am in no way planning to do that any time in the near future. But I do take that as a sign she wants to get better, and that she is not so unwilling to see my feelings as well.

Now, she has informed me that sex is out of the question for a very long time, if ever at all. She now feels fears and aversions to that, but wants other intimacies like hugs, kisses, and the like. I am not up to sexual activities right now either, but I hope time and comfort will heal that.

 

[Jay417]

Does this mean she wants to be able to have other partners?

OP: There is no way we can help you. Just none. Sorry. But it sounds like both of you have some real issues that need to be dealt with. I hope you seek the help you need.

To be serious, my marriage has never faced anything like this, and when it came to our future we were in sync as far as I knew. I may have my own issues, but I am a good husband. I care for my wife. I pay all of our bills, cook all the meals, and do all the housework. Fir years my wife has worked part time, came home and had time to do whatever she pleased, and she mostly watched television, listened to music, slept, and sometimes went out with a friend or had a friend over. I did this for her because she by nature hates housework, and I don’t mind doing it. I mention all this so people stop seeing me as some sort of overlord to my wife. A female friend of mine, who knows the situation, suggested I treated my wife “too good” and that is why she feels she is entitled to her way only. I don’t think so, I think I am just being a good spouse. But I’m sure somehow this is a bad thing too.

 

[underacloud]

That sounds more promising Jay.

Be careful - as one man to another - I know the temptation most men feel is to try to fix a problem. In this case, rely on therapists to do that work (and God of course). Your work is to support and understand your wife, not to fix anything. As a man, that is very hard to do. You need to learn to listen and nod your head, and resist the urge to say anything that sounds at all like you know what she ought to do now (apart from continuing the counselling of course). Men are not good at this. It is immensely frustrating. But it is what is needed.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[pianistclare]

I am struggling with this so much. I am trying to give up on children, but it is hard to deny that I want them, and that for all this time she claimed to as well. I am still shocked I guess.

I decided to ask her yesterday directly to tell me what is really going on, What she is really afraid of or averse too. I was firm and would not let her run away from the question and truth came out finally. She has a past filled with parental abuse as I mentioned, but the depth and scope are far larger and deeper than I understood in the past. She admitted she still wants kids, and did before, but that her fears are too big to have them. She thinks that kids kill a happy marriage, because all her life her parents claimed she ruined theirs by being born. Good God. I assured her that isn’t true, but agreed to drop the subject of children and help her get to a healthier place regarding her past.

She came to me hours later in love and affection telling me she felt I finally understood her. She even said that her true feelings on adoption are that one day once she is healthier about the subject she greatly desires adopting an older child that has little chance of being adopted. She feels those are the most in need, and the ones she can more relate to. Now, I am in no way planning to do that any time in the near future. But I do take that as a sign she wants to get better, and that she is not so unwilling to see my feelings as well.

Now, she has informed me that sex is out of the question for a very long time, if ever at all. She now feels fears and aversions to that, but wants other intimacies like hugs, kisses, and the like. I am not up to sexual activities right now either, but I hope time and comfort will heal that.

She makes a statement, changes her mind, warms up, and says sex is out of the question.
She definitely is getting something out of keeping you wound up.

None of this is normal, healthy, or conducive to a good marriage.
Thank goodness there are no children. Children simply cannot survive “now I do, now I don’t” games. These mind games are bizarre.
I’m not sure she knows what she wants, unless it is to keep you begging,
So sad.

 

[underacloud]

She makes a statement, changes her mind, warms up, and says sex is out of the question.
She definitely is getting something out of keeping you wound up.

None of this is normal, healthy, or conducive to a good marriage.
Thank goodness there are no children. Children simply cannot survive “now I do, now I don’t” games. These mind games are bizarre.
I’m not sure she knows what she wants, unless it is to keep you begging,
So sad.

I think they need to stop having such talks outside of therapy for a while. It seems their communication has really broken down and they need a qualified therapist to mediate.

We don’t really know if the wife is being manipulative or just responding to pressure Jay is placing on her and being driven by issues stemming from past abuse. We don’t know if Jay is being entirely reasonable - perhaps he is - or being too focused on his concerns and not his wife’s. And we don’t know if what Jay says about all this is reasonable/fair or merely his perspective and thus not impartial.

Too many ifs and buts in all this. Their therapist needs to guide them now.

 

[pianistclare]

I think they need to stop having such talks outside of therapy for a while. It seems their communication has really broken down and they need a qualified therapist to mediate.

We don’t really know if the wife is being manipulative or just responding to pressure Jay is placing on her and being driven by issues stemming from past abuse. We don’t know if Jay is being entirely reasonable - perhaps he is - or being too focused on his concerns and not his wife’s. And we don’t know if what Jay says about all this is reasonable/fair or merely his perspective and thus not impartial.

Too many ifs and buts in all this. Their therapist needs to guide them now.

Quite right. And impossible to really know.
Prayers offered.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I am struggling with this so much. I am trying to give up on children, but it is hard to deny that I want them, and that for all this time she claimed to as well. I am still shocked I guess.

I decided to ask her yesterday directly to tell me what is really going on, What she is really afraid of or averse too. I was firm and would not let her run away from the question and truth came out finally. She has a past filled with parental abuse as I mentioned, but the depth and scope are far larger and deeper than I understood in the past. She admitted she still wants kids, and did before, but that her fears are too big to have them. She thinks that kids kill a happy marriage, because all her life her parents claimed she ruined theirs by being born. Good God. I assured her that isn’t true, but agreed to drop the subject of children and help her get to a healthier place regarding her past.

She came to me hours later in love and affection telling me she felt I finally understood her. She even said that her true feelings on adoption are that one day once she is healthier about the subject she greatly desires adopting an older child that has little chance of being adopted. She feels those are the most in need, and the ones she can more relate to. Now, I am in no way planning to do that any time in the near future. But I do take that as a sign she wants to get better, and that she is not so unwilling to see my feelings as well.

Now, she has informed me that sex is out of the question for a very long time, if ever at all. She now feels fears and aversions to that, but wants other intimacies like hugs, kisses, and the like. I am not up to sexual activities right now either, but I hope time and comfort will heal that.

What you need to do is continue to try and get her help. She’s obviously not stable right now, and it could mental illness.

When mentally ill people make grand declarations about divorce, not wanting kids ect, well, I would say they don’t always mean it.

But that doesn’t mean inaction is an option. Insist that she gets treatment from someone qualified to make a diagnosis; this needs to go beyond just marriage counseling, because that in and off itself may not solve the root of the problem.

 

[Jay417]

I think they need to stop having such talks outside of therapy for a while. It seems their communication has really broken down and they need a qualified therapist to mediate.

We don’t really know if the wife is being manipulative or just responding to pressure Jay is placing on her and being driven by issues stemming from past abuse. We don’t know if Jay is being entirely reasonable - perhaps he is - or being too focused on his concerns and not his wife’s. And we don’t know if what Jay says about all this is reasonable/fair or merely his perspective and thus not impartial.

Too many ifs and buts in all this. Their therapist needs to guide them now.

I did not pressure her, I reacted emotionally instead of hiding my feelings in a moment of true shock. I tried to understand and to talk, and I agreed to compromise with the no pregnancy request. She has never accused me of pressuring her, just of not being supportive of her decision to not have children regardless of my feelings.

I feel this whole past abuse issue is crucial to her seemingly sudden fears and behaviors. I am not denying I hurt her by my reaction at all, but ever since I have been trying everything I know to show my support to her needs. See it from my perspective, she asks me to give up what was once, and I assumed still, a major life goal and be emotionless and okay with it immediately. I am at a place where I know I will always want kids, but I want my wife and marriage more. I needed time to puzzle that out, I fasted and prayed for two days until I felt peace.

I am waiting for my priest to call me with the details to meet the therapist. He said he will call tomorrow with a date set for the same week. I want to keep it in the church, and after experiencing a non church counselor my wife agrees. S

 

[Jay417]

Does this mean she wants to be able to have other partners?

OP: There is no way we can help you. Just none. Sorry. But it sounds like both of you have some real issues that need to be dealt with. I hope you seek the help you need.

NO, not an open relationship or other partners, sex has nothing to do with this, she has never been a very sexual person. We had a normal sex life, but she was always a 2 or 3 times a month person our entire relationship. She means single as in free to go out all night whenever she wants and no responsibilities like household stuff, bills etc…Luckily, a couple of those nights have taught her that being married is a pretty nice thing to be, and that such outings are okay occasionally but not nightly.

 

[bitterhope]

I have a sister that is just like your wife. She was close to our family until one day she just decided to cut us all put one by one and claim she was abused by first dad, them both parents, and eventually all of us siblings. She paints a very ugly picture of us and loves to twist things around for her benefit. Her first husband was her “savior” until he finally put his foot down and stood up for something that was important to him. She ran home to my parents (funny how they are perfect when she needs them) and stayed until she met husband number two. Long story short, she’s now on husband #5 and we are back to being shunned. Her husbands have all worked two jobs, done the house work, cooked, run the errands, and she spends her days doing exactly as she wishes. Eventually each one of them have been called abusive, over bearing ogres and made out to be sexual predators. I’m sure my sister has some sort of mental issues but she’s never been diagnosed with anything. She’s older than me (she was 10 when I was born) so I’m not sure what she was like as a child, but my older siblings say that she was normal until puberty and has never really matured beyond that. She does dress and behave like a teenager and she is now 45 years old. I don’t think there is anyway to really fix your situation. I’ve seen it in my own family and in other families in real life. It’s frustrating because if a man were to treat his wife like that it is no doubt labeled as abuse–and rightfully so. But when the woman is doing it so many people still turn it around on the man and somehow he is still blamed. My sister has been in numerous therapy sessions with each of her husbands and not a thing changes. It still ends up in her filing for divorce. You really deserve better and you should protect yourself. I pray several times daily for my sister but I’m so thankful I haven’t lived near her in years. I’m one of only three siblings who are still on her “good list” (out of 16 of us). I really hope things turn out well for you but honestly I don’t see it happening.

One more thing, my sister does have three children. She had them with husband #3 and it’s been very painful to watch them dragged around through all of this. They are ages 13-19 now and so messed up. They have no real chance in life. The boy is into drugs and the two girls are very promiscuous, including the 13 year old. They can’t relate at all to their same aged cousins. It breaks my heart seeing how it’s all worked out. Be grateful you don’t have to watch your children go through that kind of life.