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oldcelt
Guest
Correct. Free will and an absolute plan are a grand contradiction.
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ynotzap
Guest
No matter what I say, if you think that you are right I can’t change your mind, you are free to believe what you think, and I recognize the condition, and I know that I can’t change it. So until the time some event happens to change your mind you are locked into your own convictions. Some people are not convinced that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and they
are locked into their convictions. that’s reality, and due to free will, their choice.
Ride your merry go round, I refuse to ride it with you. Your religion is where-ever it may lead,
are locked into their convictions. that’s reality, and due to free will, their choice.
Ride your merry go round, I refuse to ride it with you. Your religion is where-ever it may lead,
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oldcelt
Guest
Isn’t that the basis of discussion? Differing views on a subject…even more so on a philosophy board where people try to find the simplest way to explain extremely complex issues?
Holding to one’s views is not a sign of some condition, or if it is, everyone on this board is suffering from the same malady.
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Bahman
Guest
Don’t you really see that there is a tension between these axioms:
- God sees future
- We have free will
- Prophecy of God’s foresee is possible
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empther
Guest
I have explained several times why it is an impossible self-contradiction for God to predict exactly what we will do at a specific time, specific place, and specific circumstances,
but you stubbornly ignore my explanations,
because you are Bahman.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up Bahman.
:coffeeread:
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ynotzap
Guest
I thought the basis of discussion was by sharing different views was to acquire the truth. The word Philosophy means the study of wisdom, love of wisdom, theory, or logical analysis of principles underlying conduct, thought, knowledge, and the nature of the universe including logic, epistemology, metaphysics, and psychology, no field of knowledge is exempt.
Oldcelt: quote…Holding to one’s views is not a sign of some.condition, or if it is everyone on this board is suffering from the same malady
I disagree with the first half of your statement, I agree with the second half of your statement it is prophetical. I stated it before, and I’ll state it again (I find myself repeating often)
A serious malady is crucifying humanity, and no one is exempt. It is responsible for the death of innocent people, national and church divisions, family destruction, hatred and the list goes on. It is divisive and destructive by it’s nature
The mental and spiritual condition of we who are affected ( and that includes all of us to some degree) make us appear as “infallible judges and jurors” and the real shocker is that we are completely un
aware of this condition in ourselves. This is the malady…it is the blindness or ignorance of our understanding. In our convictions we believe we are right, and our knowledge and reasoning justify our acts and we become ‘SELF-RIGHTEOUS’ unaware
We lack the humble disposition of regarding our thinking as fallible, our knowledge as limited and fail to treat our judgement with a wise and healthy amount of self doubt and scrutiny. In this state no amount of pleading and reasoning from others is effective in reaching us. We are trapped in our own mental world by our limitations and at the deepest recesses of our minds lies the creature of the id, pride We become accidental hypocrits because we contradict ourselves unknowingly. This is the condition of a mind that is self-righteous, and not a humble mind that is God-righteous. When we don’t consider the possibility of the other person being right, we become self-righteous. God guaranteed infallibility to the Church, not to just any individual. Those consistent with Church teaching share in that that passive infallibility. Thats what we represent on this forum, that makes us God-righteous not self-righteous. We sometimes are not consistent with Church teaching, and the Church hasn’t explained everything, but it is accurate on matters of salvation, and truth and remains so inspite of oppostion from all quarters. So we too have to be aware of our self-righteousness Everyone suffers from this malady to some degree, we are not perfect.
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ynotzap
Guest
God sees future ans"yes" He is omniscient, and omnipresent, and Pure Act, He exists in eternity, not time.
We have free will Ans: Yes Human experience tells us we are autonomous, free acting, and intelligent agents, we make choices, and we can oppose, or concurr with our wills
Prophesy of God’s foresee is possible, rewrite: God’s prophesy is possible; Ans: not only possible but actual , He is Pure Act, so it’s yes
God understands your future because he understands the choices you will make-not because God will make you go against your free will. God respects your free will and will even enforce it
I see no problem. I need to ask, do you honestly understand that God is omniscient. Maybe we assume that you do. Do you understand that, God is Omnipotent, infallible, existing in eternity, not time, although He is Omnipresent. Do you understand when we say God is Pure Act, Pure Being, do you understand what we mean by Potency and Act when referring to creation? If you don’t I can understand why we are having problems agreeing. Only you can clarify this situation.
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Sparkythedog
Guest
In your explanation, you stated that God cannot tell someone exactly where they will be or what they will do in the future. Ynotzap says that God can tell you exactly what you will be doing in the future.I have explained several times why it is an impossible self-contradiction for God to predict exactly what we will do at a specific time, specific place, and specific circumstances,
but you stubbornly ignore my explanations,
because you are Bahman.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up Bahman.
:coffeeread:
Bahman’s recent response was directed towards Ynotzap, not at you.
You and Ynotzap differ in your understanding of God’s abilities. I’m curious to hear you talk to each other and try to work that one out.
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ynotzap
Guest
We are human after all, and sometimes we experience a lot of frustration trying to get something across, and that involves everyone to some extent. I refer you to my explanation to Oldcelt on a malady that affects us all, no exceptions. I believe this will explain, or clear up any mis-understandings, or at least it should. Give it some consideration Post#93
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Sparkythedog
Guest
Sorry, I don’t know what you are talking about. My post was directed towards Empther.
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ynotzap
Guest
I took the liberty to make what I think is a reasonable suggestion. You are in no way obliged
to accept it. I’m truly sorry you don’t know what I am talking about, I thought it would help.
to accept it. I’m truly sorry you don’t know what I am talking about, I thought it would help.
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Bahman
Guest
You long post doesn’t offer any solution to this problem. You cannot resolve the tension by saying that “I see no problem”.
Again here there are axioms:
- God sees future
- We have free will
- Prophecy of God’s foresee is possible
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Bahman
Guest
God in Catholicism does not need to predict future since he sees future. The question is whether you believe in prophecy which God can declare future? Your answer is no. My question is then what prohibit God to do so? Haven’t Jesus and another prophets predicted future? Yes.I have explained several times why it is an impossible self-contradiction for God to predict exactly what we will do at a specific time, specific place, and specific circumstances,
but you stubbornly ignore my explanations,
because you are Bahman.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, sums up Bahman.
:coffeeread:
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ynotzap
Guest
qa
No you can not do Y at the time of the fulfillment that God sees. You still have free will, and God does not force you to make the choice of Y You think that because you do X and not Y at the fulfillment of the event that God sees in your future, not HIs, you are forced to do X. God’s ability to see what you will do in time, has no effect on your free will.
Your actions can never effect God in His Omniscience, or in any other attribute of God.
If you can do Y instead of X at the time of the fulfilment of what God sees in your future, then what you are saying is that God can make mistakes, and not Omniscient, and if thats the case your FIRST AXIOM IS WRONG, AN AXIOM IS A GENERALLY ACCEPTED STATEMENT OF TRUTH an axiom is true or not true, you have reduced your axiom to a none truth if you say we have no free will.and God can make mistakes.You are saying God is not Omniscient
What makes you think that I don’t understand what you are saying that you have to repeat the axioms?
No you can not do Y at the time of the fulfillment that God sees. You still have free will, and God does not force you to make the choice of Y You think that because you do X and not Y at the fulfillment of the event that God sees in your future, not HIs, you are forced to do X. God’s ability to see what you will do in time, has no effect on your free will.
Your actions can never effect God in His Omniscience, or in any other attribute of God.
If you can do Y instead of X at the time of the fulfilment of what God sees in your future, then what you are saying is that God can make mistakes, and not Omniscient, and if thats the case your FIRST AXIOM IS WRONG, AN AXIOM IS A GENERALLY ACCEPTED STATEMENT OF TRUTH an axiom is true or not true, you have reduced your axiom to a none truth if you say we have no free will.and God can make mistakes.You are saying God is not Omniscient
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Either God is Omniscient or God isn’t.
There is no such thing as partial Omniscience.
If God is Omniscient than God knows everything; past, present and future which would include “foreknowledge” since by definition that is the future.
Either we have “free will” or we don’t, if we don’t then not only are we nothing more than puppets on a string but also no one would be responsible for anything that they do since they would not have a choice.
Just because it is beyond our comprehension that One (God) can know everything (Omniscience) and we (humans) can have a choice in what we do (free will) doesn’t mean that it is not true, just means that there are things beyond our limited intellect.
Therefore all of the arguments in the world are meaningless if God is Omniscient and if we have free will, the only “arguments” possible are that God is not Omniscient and/or we do not have free will.
Seems to me that both are “faith things”, I could be wrong but I don’t think that either one can be proven one way or the other.
There is no such thing as partial Omniscience.
If God is Omniscient than God knows everything; past, present and future which would include “foreknowledge” since by definition that is the future.
Either we have “free will” or we don’t, if we don’t then not only are we nothing more than puppets on a string but also no one would be responsible for anything that they do since they would not have a choice.
Just because it is beyond our comprehension that One (God) can know everything (Omniscience) and we (humans) can have a choice in what we do (free will) doesn’t mean that it is not true, just means that there are things beyond our limited intellect.
Therefore all of the arguments in the world are meaningless if God is Omniscient and if we have free will, the only “arguments” possible are that God is not Omniscient and/or we do not have free will.
Seems to me that both are “faith things”, I could be wrong but I don’t think that either one can be proven one way or the other.
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oldcelt
Guest
Something I have been saying on several threads.
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Bahman
Guest
For sake of clarity.
I don’t really understand you. How I cannot make a firm decision and do Y if I have free will? What is your definition of free will?
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MarcoPG
Guest
I’ve already given enough in the other thread, but I would like to say this:
Revelation thourgh prophecy is never complete (we don’t have the whole picture) and it is never detailed (not talking about the second hair in your nose from te right).
So: It has been revealed only what we need. Otherwise, we would be incapable of hope and sad. We may have choices, but couldn’t be able to use that faculty.
The mix between God’s Knowledge and human free will is a thing which leads to salvation which the Church hasn’t defined. It is always a matter of trust, faith, unless extraordinary intervention, where choice has to be made. Note that interventions of God never stop us to do things willingly, but there are things which He does through us.
About those questions being in the philosophy category : Philosophy deals with God…so…Either you find arguments to prove the existence of God, or you let this apart. Secondly, it can be shown philosophically that Knowledge (it is foreknowledge only for us, because we aren’t there yet) by a god in a monotheistic religion is necessarily All-knowing.
If an All-knowing God who gives free will cannot be philosophically proven, that only shows you want those kinds of proofs which no one can give. Faith is a proof to believers.
God therefore has a will, and his will is that we chose Him, to be saved. It is not to be good. Being good doesn’t save. We have to stick to Him. Then good things happen as a consequence of that choice, and the merits of these actions are because of Faith in Christ.
So, He wanted us to have free will. And Philosophy is not only godless.
I don’t want to repeat myself again.
Oldcelt, I hope you are fine :tiphat:
Revelation thourgh prophecy is never complete (we don’t have the whole picture) and it is never detailed (not talking about the second hair in your nose from te right).
So: It has been revealed only what we need. Otherwise, we would be incapable of hope and sad. We may have choices, but couldn’t be able to use that faculty.
The mix between God’s Knowledge and human free will is a thing which leads to salvation which the Church hasn’t defined. It is always a matter of trust, faith, unless extraordinary intervention, where choice has to be made. Note that interventions of God never stop us to do things willingly, but there are things which He does through us.
About those questions being in the philosophy category : Philosophy deals with God…so…Either you find arguments to prove the existence of God, or you let this apart. Secondly, it can be shown philosophically that Knowledge (it is foreknowledge only for us, because we aren’t there yet) by a god in a monotheistic religion is necessarily All-knowing.
If an All-knowing God who gives free will cannot be philosophically proven, that only shows you want those kinds of proofs which no one can give. Faith is a proof to believers.
God therefore has a will, and his will is that we chose Him, to be saved. It is not to be good. Being good doesn’t save. We have to stick to Him. Then good things happen as a consequence of that choice, and the merits of these actions are because of Faith in Christ.
So, He wanted us to have free will. And Philosophy is not only godless.
I don’t want to repeat myself again.
Oldcelt, I hope you are fine :tiphat:
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ynotzap
Guest
I explained in post 84 and post 98 were you were contradictng your self in your thinking. In the first axiom You stated :"God sees the future. Following your statements a contradiction was found,and it conflicted with the first axiom. The consequence of your reasoning should have changed the axiom to : God can not see the future, in other words He is fallible and not Omniscient.
The second axiom was "We have free will,’ another truth, but you saw conflict with this and still do. It is self-evident that you have free will, when you stated that if you appose be choosing the opposite to what is prophesied , you are IMPLICITLY saying you have free will
Free will is one of the powers of the soul to make choices. The desire of the soul or will is to acquire the good or happiness or what is objectively conducive to the well being of the person. the soul will follow by its will the things or objectives that the intelligence of the soul perceives as good. If the mind is ignorant then the mind, or intellect will not be able to achieve its desires for the good, or objective happiness Even our constitution admits of “Life , liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” If this hasn’t resolved any of your questions, then I can’t help you. What is liberty if we do not have free will?
What you must understand is that your firm decisions, no matter how firm doesn’t change reality and that we all are fallible, dependent, Man proposes, and God disposes
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ynotzap
Guest
I’m afraid St. Paul would disagree with you, and so would ST.Thomas Aquinas. I know this is a philosophy forum, but faith was mentioned, and in philosophy all areas of pursuit of knowledge should be admissible
I make reference Rom l, l9-20 For what can be known about God is evident to them because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what He has made
St. Thomas has proven this through reasoning apart from Faith, even though he synthesized reason with Faith, he showed that Faith and reason came together, since the Author was the same. Reason can lead you to the door of Faith, But Faith itself is a gift from Jesus, God-man. Faith is reasonable.
I know Oldcelt doesn’t ascribe to this Christian Catholic faith but Tom Baum is Catholic and does.
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