Two argument against foreknowledge

[Bahman]

As far as I know there is only one past and at one time the past was the future, wasn’t it?

There is only one past mainly made by our decisions. There will be one future as well since future will be past. In another word, what decision we make is either, or, so the future of each person is uniquely defined based on decision s/he makes hence the future of everybody is unique.

Just because you might think that you know everything about God does not mean that you do, it may simply mean that the God you got “all figured out” isn’t God at all but is just your “conception” of God.

That is correct. I don’t know what God is but I know what he isn’t. We can only know God by judging him.

 

[seagal]

That is correct. I don’t know what God is but I know what he isn’t. We can only know God by judging him.

What is not God? What is God not? It’s hard to put that in a question

 

[ynotzap]

What he is saying is that if a person has informed to foreknowledge through prophecy and s/he was informed that s/he will do X. The question is whether person can do the opposite of X considering that s/he has free will? The answer is either yes or no. In first case foreknowledge is subject to change which is contrary to definition of foreknowledge since there is only one foreknowledge and it cannot be subject to change and in second case the person has no free will.

If it is prophesy, it will be so otherwise it wouldn’t be prophesy.
God’s foreknowledge is not changeable
Your choices are changable even though you may have foreknowlege by prophesy. You can bet your choice will always be consistent with the prophesy, no matter what you choose.
If you choose different from the prophesy, that will only prove you have freedom to choose even if you choose the opposite to prophesy.
God in His foreknowledge will know how we change
God will at no time interfere with your freedom of will. All things are possible to God.God gives existence to our wills, He concurs with our will even when we choose wrong, and He sustains our wills. Your choices do not affect God in any way. If He acts like He is affected it is out of love for us, and doesn’t want us to deliberately make bad choices.
You and I can’t grow one strand of hair by willing it. We are completely dependent on God for everything You are correct.

 

[ynotzap]

There is only one past mainly made by our decisions. There will be one future as well since future will be past. In another word, what decision we make is either, or, so the future of each person is uniquely defined based on decision s/he makes hence the future of everybody is unique.

That is correct. I don’t know what God is but I know what he isn’t. We can only know God by judging him.

Some of us now that God is Existence, and that says it all. When we speak of God we must look at it existentially, that He is, and not what He is.

 

[empther]

Post 47,

Originally Posted by empther
Once again…

If God predicted my specific action at a specific time and specific circumstances and specific location,
it seems that I could change my location, circumstances, or something, and not do what God predicted.
But this is impossible. God is omniscient and knows where every atom in the universe will be a million years from now, even the atoms I disturb by my free will actions.

It’s something analogous to a self-contradiction.
Our free will makes decisions by our imperfect intellects and wills. God’s knowledge is perfect and his predictions must be perfect. If God gave us a precise prediction of our actions tomorrow, we would not be acting according to our imperfect intellect and will. The situation thus becomes some kind of impossible conflict, a kind of “self-contradiction”, to speak loosely. We can’t act with God’s perfect knowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will at the same time.

Of course the situation is self-contradictory This is a new first. Bahman and I actually agree on something! :bigyikes: however, watch out for the rest of the sentence ]

and for that you need a minimal level of foreknowledge and free will. You don’t need anything extraordinary.

Atheist technique being used:
Put a few words together that have no meaning: “for that you need a minimal level of foreknowledge and free will.”
, to confuse what the other person (ME) said and draw people’s attention away from it.
Then say something else with no meaning: “You don’t need anything extraordinary.”
…to make it sound like you’re correcting what the other person ( ME! ) said.

 

[Bahman]

If it is prophesy, it will be so otherwise it wouldn’t be prophesy.
God’s foreknowledge is not changeable
Your choices are changable even though you may have foreknowlege by prophesy. You can bet your choice will always be consistent with the prophesy, no matter what you choose.
If you choose different from the prophesy, that will only prove you have freedom to choose even if you choose the opposite to prophesy.
God in His foreknowledge will know how we change
God will at no time interfere with your freedom of will. All things are possible to God.God gives existence to our wills, He concurs with our will even when we choose wrong, and He sustains our wills. Your choices do not affect God in any way. If He acts like He is affected it is out of love for us, and doesn’t want us to deliberately make bad choices.
You and I can’t grow one strand of hair by willing it. We are completely dependent on God for everything You are correct.

What you are saying is inconsistent since if God says that I do X then X should happen not otherwise yet I still have freedom to do otherwise hence God’s foreknowledge is not constant.

Put it another way, if God says that I do X then it means that in God’s timeless state God sees that I do X and this time I am aware of my action in future hence there is a serious tension between foreknowledge and free will.

 

[oldcelt]

What you are saying is inconsistent since if God says that I do X then X should happen not otherwise yet I still have freedom to do otherwise hence God’s foreknowledge is not constant.

Put it another way, if God says that I do X then it means that in God’s timeless state God sees that I do X and this time I am aware of my action in future hence there is a serious tension between foreknowledge and free will.

Put another way, this God’s omniscience would have failed Him. God would be wrong.

 

[Bahman]

Post 47,

Atheist technique being used:
Put a few words together that have no meaning: “for that you need a minimal level of foreknowledge and free will.”
, to confuse what the other person (ME) said and draw people’s attention away from it.
Then say something else with no meaning: “You don’t need anything extraordinary.”
…to make it sound like you’re correcting what the other person ( ME! ) said.

I am not an atheist and you are not making an argument.

 

[ynotzap]

What you are saying is inconsistent since if God says that I do X then X should happen not otherwise yet I still have freedom to do otherwise hence God’s foreknowledge is not constant.

Put it another way, if God says that I do X then it means that in God’s timeless state God sees that I do X and this time I am aware of my action in future hence there is a serious tension between foreknowledge and free will.

That only means that sometime between knowing the prophesy, and you changing your mind to appose the prophesy, that you will change again, you are changeable, not God, and God is never wrong. And you still have free will.thats why you can change again. You do exist in time, not eternity. Time is change and you are subjected to time, God is not. We mortals are fickle

 

[empther]

I am not an atheist and you are not making an argument.

All right. Try this.

God has foreknowledge of our future decisions and actions,
but he can’t give us this foreknowledge along with all specifics of time, place, and circumstances,
because then we would be operating with both God’s perfect foreknowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will and this is like a self-contradiction ( in the realm of action rather than existence, but still a self-contradiction ).
This is in no way a limit on God’s omnipotence as you implied before, because God’s can’t do a self-contradiction. That would be illogical.

Satisfied? Are you willing to accept that? Or will you try to obscure it with rhetoric?

 

[Bahman]

All right. Try this.

God has foreknowledge of our future decisions and actions,
but he can’t give us this foreknowledge along with all specifics of time, place, and circumstances,
because then we would be operating with both God’s perfect foreknowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will and this is like a self-contradiction ( in the realm of action rather than existence, but still a self-contradiction ).
This is in no way a limit on God’s omnipotence as you implied before, because God’s can’t do a self-contradiction. That would be illogical.

Satisfied? Are you willing to accept that? Or will you try to obscure it with rhetoric?

I don’t really know how I can help a system of thought which is self-contradictory when it comes to exchange of a bit of information, especially when it is claimed that it is established with omniscient and omnipotent.

All you are trying to say is that it is illogical that God could give us foreknowledge hence he cannot give it. I however don’t understand why is it illogical? To me revealing foreknowledge either is possible or not regardless of its result. There is a tension between free will and foreknowledge once it is revealed otherwise the relation between creation and God is not coherent since the very principle of this framework which is the truth can be threatened by exchange of a tiny amount of information.

 

[ynotzap]

What you are saying is inconsistent since if God says that I do X then X should happen not otherwise yet I still have freedom to do otherwise hence God’s foreknowledge is not constant.

Put it another way, if God says that I do X then it means that in God’s timeless state God sees that I do X and this time I am aware of my action in future hence there is a serious tension between foreknowledge and free will.

God’s foreknowledge is constant, not changeable, God is Pure Act, not Potency and Act like us. You are the one who is not constant by nature. Change is part of your nature (becoming) not (being) only God is Pure Being So if God prophesies that you will do X, you will do X’ if you appose (this takes place in time) then you definitly will change your mind (freedom of will) to correspond to what God prophesies. God is not forcing you to change your mind He just knows that you will. God is incapable of making mistakes, or error and nothing is beyond His providence. If you say God is not constant, and we don’t have free will you are in error. There is tension in your mind in trying to understand what is said,and not between foreknowledge and free will If you are aware of your actions in the future, then there is time to change your mind (freedom of will) Something will happen to make you change your mind and God knows it. He may even cause something to happen without interfering with your free will.to change your mind. After all nothing happens without His say so. For example He may give you the grace to humble yourself if need be, and the result would cause you to change your mind.

 

[Bahman]

That only means that sometime between knowing the prophesy, and you changing your mind to appose the prophesy, that you will change again, you are changeable, not God, and God is never wrong. And you still have free will.thats why you can change again. You do exist in time, not eternity. Time is change and you are subjected to time, God is not. We mortals are fickle

I don’t understand how your argument removes the tension between free will and known foreknowledge? For any argument there should be a counter argument to prove otherwise unless the former is true. There is something wrong in our interpretation when a tension or paradox arises and we have put our efforts to remove the tension by renewing the interpretation or questioning the axioms. There is no other way around if we are really looking for the truth.

 

[ynotzap]

A prophesy wouldn’t be a prophesy if God’s foreknowledge was not constant. and it is not possible for God to contradict Himself, a prophesy is a prophesy or it isn’t a prophesy?

 

[empther]

It’s the usual, folks. :banghead:
( But I’m happy to expose Bahman’s methods. )

All you are trying to say is that it is illogical that God could give us foreknowledge hence he cannot give it.

That’s not what I said. I said This is in no way a limit on God’s omnipotence as you implied before, because God’s can’t do a self-contradiction. That would be illogical. The “That would be illogical” applies to saying God’s not being able to do a self-contradiction is a limit to his omnipotence.
But of course you try to confuse things be twisting my words around.

I however don’t understand why is it illogical?

Continuation of the confusion you’re trying to cause. “illogical” applies to limiting God’s omnipotence as I just said.

To me revealing foreknowledge either is possible or not regardless of its result.

I’ve explained quite clearly why this situation cannot happen ( with complete specifics of time, place and circumstances).

There is a tension between free will and foreknowledge once it is revealed otherwise the relation between creation and God is not coherent since the very principle of this framework which is the truth can be threatened by exchange of a tiny amount of information.

It’s more than a tension. It’s an annihilation of God’s prediction if by our free will we decide to do something different. I’ve already explained why this can’t happen. It’s a self-contradiction to have us use God’s perfect knowledge while using our own imperfect intellect and will. They can’t coincide.

the truth can be threatened :bigyikes:

God’s truth cannot be threathened. He just doesn’t reveal the truth about our future actions for reasons I’ve already explained.

For the benefit of latecomers who wonder what this it about,
my explanations.

**Originally Posted by empther View Post
All right. Try this.

God has foreknowledge of our future decisions and actions,
but he can’t give us this foreknowledge along with all specifics of time, place, and circumstances,
because then we would be operating with both God’s perfect foreknowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will and this is like a self-contradiction ( in the realm of action rather than existence, but still a self-contradiction ).
This is in no way a limit on God’s omnipotence as you implied before, because God’s can’t do a self-contradiction. That would be illogical.

Satisfied? Are you willing to accept that? Or will you try to obscure it with rhetoric?**

 

[Bahman]

God’s foreknowledge is constant, not changeable, God is Pure Act, not Potency and Act like us. You are the one who is not constant by nature. Change is part of your nature (becoming) not (being) only God is Pure Being So if God prophesies that you will do X, you will do X’ if you appose (this takes place in time) then you definitly will change your mind (freedom of will) to correspond to what God prophesies. God is not forcing you to change your mind He just knows that you will. God is incapable of making mistakes, or error and nothing is beyond His providence. If you say God is not constant, and we don’t have free will you are in error. There is tension in your mind in trying to understand what is said,and not between foreknowledge and free will If you are aware of your actions in the future, then there is time to change your mind (freedom of will) Something will happen to make you change your mind and God knows it. He may even cause something to happen without interfering with your free will.to change your mind. After all nothing happens without His say so. For example He may give you the grace to humble yourself if need be, and the result would cause you to change your mind.

How I could change my mind if I am determined to do the opposite of what God reveals? Moreover, any God’s intervention to guide our decision accordingly is not allowed.

 

[ynotzap]

This is circular thinking, going around and around, now we are getting into the old argument of determinism. I refuse to get on the merry-go round. I can accept that you don’t understand and find peace with it. But if I get on the merry-go-round, all I will experience is frustration. If you don’t have it you can’t give it.

 

[Bahman]

This is circular thinking, going around and around, now we are getting into the old argument of determinism. I refuse to get on the merry-go round. I can accept that you don’t understand and find peace with it. But if I get on the merry-go-round, all I will experience is frustration. If you don’t have it you can’t give it.

By determined I meant that I am firmly decided to do otherwise. There is no determinism involved in a firm decision.

 

[Bahman]

…we would be operating with both God’s perfect foreknowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will and this is like a self-contradiction…

So I take the core of what you said since I don’t see any contradiction at all. All I am asking is tiny amount of information and I use my free will to do otherwise. Why is this self-contrary?

We always work based on the knowledge we accumulated, intellect and will. Can you give me a counter example that you could do something without these three elements?

 

[ynotzap]

You and I and everybody are changeable creatures, we have the freedom to choose . and we do live in the world of time. God knows all of our decisions, He gives us the power to make them even the wrong ones.

If He reveals to us that we will do something,by HIs Omniscience, Then we try to oppose His revelation by choosing something else, and that will determine God’s Omniscience and make Him wrong in His Omniscience, is a contradiction. That is saying God is not Omniscient, and that the prophesy we regard as prophesy is not really prophesy also is saying we don’t understand God in HIs attributes, and God is His attributes WE LOGICALLY CONTRADICT OURSELVES.
We are creatures of time, and are definitely changeable it’s in our nature. We have free will.
If we didn’t then all the evil in the world is God’s fault, even when we know that He doesn’t want us to commit evil, He contradicts Himself, and that is impossible. He does not determine our free will, if He did, we couldn’t make the choices that we do because they are apposed to His will,.If we had no free will we would be robots, or sophisticated biological computers, we would not be, autonomous, intelligent, free thinking beings and this is contrary to our human experience, the criterion of all our knowledge.