Two argument against foreknowledge

[oldcelt]

Bahman again :hey_bud:

That kind of irrelevant mumbo-jumbo may score points with a fourteen year old who becomes an atheist because he masturbates,
but it won’t fool any experienced member of this forum.

His statement was absolutely correct

Experienced Member of this Forum

 

[empther]

His statement was absolutely correct

But irrelevant to the point being discussed at the time,
and deliberately so as I explained.

It’s amazing what the atheists get away with around here because nobody cares enough to catch them on every rhetorical trick they use.

I sometimes even list the rhetorical tricks, up to five at a time, that they’re using at the moment so you’ll see them.

I do something.

 

[seagal]

But irrelevant to the point being discussed at the time,
and deliberately so as I explained.

It’s amazing what the atheists get away with around here because nobody cares enough to catch them on every rhetorical trick they use.

I sometimes even list the rhetorical tricks, up to five at a time, that they’re using at the moment so you’ll see them.

I do something.

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out rhetorical tricks. Just do it without the insults and crudeness.

 

[empther]

Seagal,

There’s nothing wrong with pointing out rhetorical tricks. Just do it without the insults and crudeness.

Yesterday was a bad day for me. The results of a bone scan came in and there’s involvement in my toe.
Last October I was hospitalized for removal of the big toe. You can check my list of posts in the profile and see I didn’t post anything for three months. I was in the hospital and rehab.
Now, this.
When I got home yesterday I was in a fighting mood. I’ve been “debating” these atheists on this forum for ten years and lost my cool.

I will give your remarks some thought this weekend. :ehh:

 

[empther]

Originally Posted by empther
That’s Theresa wearing an Army uniform.
The Army recently changed its service uniform from green to dark blue.
It’s a painting I threw together in six weeks. It has some mistakes.
I’m currently painting an updated one and it’s magnificent!

That’s cool. Is Theresa a friend of yours who’s in the army?

---

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=810059

 

[RedFox0456]

How do you know Peter could have chosen differently. The story is at least consistent with a lack of free will, is it not? What makes you “pretty sure”.

I’ve got a pretty stubborn brother. He likes to make rash decisions quite often, and I tell him what will happen should be make those decisions. Sometimes he listens, sometimes he doesn’t. Being told what the outcome would be just doesn’t always change someone’s mind. Is it not possible that when Jesus told Peter he was going to deny Him three times, he simply knew how Peter was going to react, and knew that telling him about it wasn’t going to change the outcome?

I mean, I’m not all-knowing and even I know that you can’t always change someone’s mind. It stands to reason that God, who exists outside of time and who could literally understand how any action would ripple down through eternity, would understand this fact. Just because you can’t change someone’s mind doesn’t mean that person didn’t freely make his choice.

And no, not being able to manipulate someone’s decisions doesn’t constitute a lack of omnipotence, because I’m sure God could given he was okay with violating our free will. He’s just playing by His own rules.

 

[oldcelt]

What if Judas had changed his mind?

 

[Bahman]

Bahman again :hey_bud:

That kind of irrelevant mumbo-jumbo may score points with a fourteen year old who becomes an atheist because he masturbates,
but it won’t fool any experienced member of this forum.

Sincerity in mind and heart is the door to divine knowledge and love.

There is a counter argument for any argument unless the argument is true. Our interpretation might be wrong when it come to a subject matter unless we are omniscient hence we have to leave room for doubt which is priceless when it comes to understand what is wrong with an interpretation otherwise the truth dies under the dust of ignorance.

 

[seagal]

What if Judas had changed his mind?

The will of God would somehow have prevailed. I look at it kinda like the GPS system in your car. It suggests directions but if you go a different way you hear “Recalculating” and you get new directions. Maybe not Judas, maybe someone else.

 

[oldcelt]

The will of God would somehow have prevailed. I look at it kinda like the GPS system in your car. It suggests directions but if you go a different way you hear “Recalculating” and you get new directions. Maybe not Judas, maybe someone else.

So humans being used as tools.

 

[ynotzap]

I think another way of asking this question would be “Can God know and/or tell me what I will do in the future? And if he can, can I do something different than what he tells me?”

If the answer to the first question is no, then regardless of the answer to the second question God is not omniscient.

If the answer to the first question is yes and the answer to the second question is also yes, then God is not omniscient.

If the answer to the first question is yes and the answer to the second question is no, then I have no free will.

There is no way, that I can see, to answer this scenario where both God is omniscient and I have free will.

The answer to your first question is YES. BUT HE KNOWS YOU WILL NOT BECAUSE HE IS OMNISCIENT
The answer to the second question is YES , You have that choice, you still retain free will but God knows you WILL NOT DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
You have drawn the wrong conclusion. God is still Omnisient

 

[seagal]

So humans being used as tools.

I would say “instrument” but the words are synonymous . As Catholics we pray that we may do the will of God, we ask him to use us as he sees fit to accomplish his plan. He is the creator, the almighty, to whom we owe our very existence. How else could we repay him but to do what he asks of us? But I will emphasize, he always asks, we can always say no.

 

[ynotzap]

What if Judas had changed his mind?

Judas always had the potential to change his mind. But God in His Omniscience knew he actually wouldn’t, without interfering with Judas’ choice

 

[ynotzap]

So humans being used as tools.

God’s willing tools, or Satan’s willing tools, but all are willing, making a choice.

 

[Sparkythedog]

The answer to your first question is YES. BUT HE KNOWS YOU WILL NOT BECAUSE HE IS OMNISCIENT
The answer to the second question is YES , You have that choice, you still retain free will but God knows you WILL NOT DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
You have drawn the wrong conclusion. God is still Omnisient

You can’t say that God can tell me my future, be proven incorrect by my actions, and still be omniscient. That doesn’t make sense. Either he knows what I will do or he doesn’t. If you’re stating that it is impossible for God to accurately tell me my future because I might change it with my actions, that’s another thing entirely.

 

[ynotzap]

You can’t say that God can tell me my future, be proven incorrect by my actions, and still be omniscient. That doesn’t make sense. Either he knows what I will do or he doesn’t. If you’re stating that it is impossible for God to accurately tell me my future because I might change it with my actions, that’s another thing entirely.

I said He necessarily knows what choices you will make in the future, no doubt.
If He didn’t He wouldn’t be God, but some created being capable of making mistakes.
God is Existance, He is infallible, He is infinite.

I’m trying to make sense of what you mean by “”…being proven incorrect by my action"
Who is being proven incorrect by your actions you or God? God is infallible, you are fallible
God can never be proven incorrect by your actions. If you think God can be proven incorrect by your actions, there is no doubt your thinking is wrong. If that were the case then God wouldn’t be God but subjected to your choices, or actions, and that is absurd.

You are strange are you not of the Body?

God sustains every minute detail of your existence, Nothing exists that He dosen’t know. God has no limits, we do.

 

[empther]

Once again…

If God predicted my specific action at a specific time and specific circumstances and specific location,
it seems that I could change my location, circumstances, or something, and not do what God predicted.
But this is impossible. God is omniscient and knows where every atom in the universe will be a million years from now, even the atoms I disturb by my free will actions.

It’s something analogous to a self-contradiction.
Our free will makes decisions by our imperfect intellects and wills. God’s knowledge is perfect and his predictions must be perfect. If God gave us a precise prediction of our actions tomorrow, we would not be acting according to our imperfect intellect and will. The situation thus becomes some kind of impossible conflict, a kind of “self-contradiction”, to speak loosely. We can’t act with God’s perfect knowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will at the same time.

 

[Bahman]

I said He necessarily knows what choices you will make in the future, no doubt.
If He didn’t He wouldn’t be God, but some created being capable of making mistakes.
God is Existance, He is infallible, He is infinite.

I’m trying to make sense of what you mean by “”…being proven incorrect by my action"
Who is being proven incorrect by your actions you or God? God is infallible, you are fallible
God can never be proven incorrect by your actions. If you think God can be proven incorrect by your actions, there is no doubt your thinking is wrong. If that were the case then God wouldn’t be God but subjected to your choices, or actions, and that is absurd.

You are strange are you not of the Body?

God sustains every minute detail of your existence, Nothing exists that He dosen’t know. God has no limits, we do.

What he is saying is that if a person has informed to foreknowledge through prophecy and s/he was informed that s/he will do X. The question is whether person can do the opposite of X considering that s/he has free will? The answer is either yes or no. In first case foreknowledge is subject to change which is contrary to definition of foreknowledge since there is only one foreknowledge and it cannot be subject to change and in second case the person has no free will.

 

[Tom_Baum]

We can accept that foreknowledge is equivalent to that one future exist. One future is however incompatible with free will once the agent is aware of foreknowledge which is easy argument.

I however don’t understand how foreknowledge can be acquired without knowing what is free will and how could we be free if free will is knowable which is hard argument. In simple word God needs to know what free will is in order to create an agent with free will however he cannot know what free will is since otherwise free will is knowable thing meaning one can know decision of a person in advance hence the agent’s action is reduced to simple functioning hence s/he could no be free.

As far as I know there is only one past and at one time the past was the future, wasn’t it?

Just because you might think that you know everything about God does not mean that you do, it may simply mean that the God you got “all figured out” isn’t God at all but is just your “conception” of God.

 

[Bahman]

Once again…

If God predicted my specific action at a specific time and specific circumstances and specific location,
it seems that I could change my location, circumstances, or something, and not do what God predicted.
But this is impossible. God is omniscient and knows where every atom in the universe will be a million years from now, even the atoms I disturb by my free will actions.

It’s something analogous to a self-contradiction.
Our free will makes decisions by our imperfect intellects and wills. God’s knowledge is perfect and his predictions must be perfect. If God gave us a precise prediction of our actions tomorrow, we would not be acting according to our imperfect intellect and will. The situation thus becomes some kind of impossible conflict, a kind of “self-contradiction”, to speak loosely. We can’t act with God’s perfect knowledge and our own imperfect intellect and will at the same time.

Of course the situation is self-contradictory and for that you need a minimal level of foreknowledge and free will. You don’t need anything extraordinary.