Two Colo. lawmakers recalled over gun control support

[styrgwillidar]

Where is your evidence that suicide goes up with the rate of gun ownership?
Without a gun being available than there is rope, medicines and trains.

In a recent article I read, they cited that suicide rates went up after the waiting period for suicide coverage elapsed. Should we move to ban life insurance covering suicide?

latimes.com/local/la-me-life-insurance-military-20130909,0,1842046.story

“A 2004 study at the University of Chicago found that the suicide rate quadrupled after the initial two-year exclusion period. In 2010, researchers analyzing insurance data from Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and Papua New Guinea found a suicide spike immediately after the 13-month exclusion period in those countries.”

ETA:
Sorry, I’m way off topic from the issue of the electorate choosing to recall representatives that ignored their constituents and rushed through laws the constituents didn’t support.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, just stop deluding yourself. It’s all in your mind. The EVIDENCE is saying the exact opposite.

Can you source some of your evidence? I sourced mine!

 

[dshix]

Can you source some of your evidence? I sourced mine!

Yes, you sourced yours; which contradicts your own position. I don’t need to source anything in favor of my statements if the things you source aren’t proving what you are saying or even prove my position.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, you sourced yours; which contradicts your own position. I don’t need to source anything in favor of my statements if the things you source aren’t proving what you are saying or even prove my position.

How so?

 

[dshix]

How so?

One example is this link you gave.

Adrift noted that it contains points which disprove your strongly held-opinions concerning the correlation between private gun ownership and crime:

1. Most indices of crime and gun violence are getting better, not worse
2. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively.

 

[Robert_Sock]

One example is this link you gave.

Adrift noted that it contains points which disprove your strongly held-opinions concerning the correlation between private gun ownership and crime:

I don’t refute either of Adrift’s claims, but they have nothing to do with the availability of guns and suicides! Care to give it another go and state what stats go against my statement?

 

[dshix]

I don’t refute either of Adrift’s claims, but they have nothing to do with the availability of guns and suicides! Care to give it another go and state what stats go against my statement?

Actually, I was just addressing the correlation between guns and crime (which, though off topic to this thread, is still relevant, since you happen to believe lower gun ownership = lower crime rates.)

The funny thing is, that knowing you, I expect you’ll pretend you didn’t notice the proven fact that higher gun ownership actually leads to lower crime rates, simply because it is not relevant to the topic of this particular thread.

In some other thread, you’ll once again say that we have to get rid of guns because they cause too much crime.

EDIT: I just realized that this thread is ACTUALLY about gun laws, and you said in the OP, “Disgusting!!! How many more tragic mass killings need to take place before people wake up?”

There we go. Your original post is disproved. Happy now?

 

[Erich]

Had background checks and limits on magazine ammunition capacities been in place, perhaps several of them.

In the Columbine High School massacre, three of the four firearms used did not use 10+ round magazines. In fact, the two most devastating firearms (i.e. caused the most carnage) were a 30+ year old double-barreled shotgun (reloaded over 20 times=40 shells) and a Hi-Point Carbine, an AWB compliant gun with 10-round magazines (reloaded 10 times = 100 rounds). Gun magazine capacity limits have never reduced crime, and will not stop rampage killing.

Gun control advocates are very good about using total gun death figures in their arguments but they rarely provide any context for those totals. Nationally, slightly over 60% of all gun-related deaths are suicides. Given that suicides are, by definition, one-shot events, magazine capacity has no bearing on such events since even a single-shot derringer is “enough”.

The problem isn’t gun control laws (or the perceived lack thereof), the problem is HIPPA! Suicides and deadly violence from children as young as eight years old, all diagnosed with a mental disorder of some type and all on Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, have become more common. Being ill and medicated is of course not a crime, but HIPAA laws protecting patient information prevent any flags from coming up when someone purchases a gun.

We hear again and again, “how could anyone in their right mind do this?” The answer is simple; no one in their right mind can do this. The data linking SSRIs to violence is indisputable, and the law is already in place which clearly prohibits the sale of firearms to those not mentally stable enough to own firearms. We simply have no means by which to enforce it under current patient privacy laws.

 

[Erich]

Yet there are countries with strict gun control, lower rates of gun ownership and higher suicide rates than the US. So, apparently not having a gun available isn’t really an impediment to committing suicide.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat
   And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat
   And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
3. The Chinese drink very little red wine
   And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
4. The Italians drink a lot of red wine
   And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of sausages and fats
   And suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

CONCLUSION
Eat and drink what you like.Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

 

[DLG123]

Government needs to take action against peoples dangerous behaviors, such as gun ownership.

^--------Says every despotic regime in the history of firearms or humanity for that matter. That is in the same vein as Moa, Stalin, Hitler, the Kim family, and countless other despots... You should really rethink that position.

 

[adrift]

I don’t refute either of Adrift’s claims, but they have nothing to do with the availability of guns and suicides! Care to give it another go and state what stats go against my statement?

Your statement has nothing to do with the stats. You promote that guns are the cause of suicides while ignoring countries where guns are restricted still have suicides. You stated that suicides go up with the amount of guns purchased. The article that you provided does not support your statement. The article only mentions that guns are purchased days before a suicide. The conclusion is that they bought the gun to commit suicide. Your opinion is if they couldn’t buy the gun they would not end their life. However, looking at other countries we see suicide committed by other means. To assume that If these people who used a gun to commit suicide did not have access to a gun, they would change their mind is not logical when you have suicides in other countries using other means as the major way of suicide.

The suicide rate goes up as gun ownership goes up

In order to prove this opinion, you would have to demonstrate that those who use a gun to end their life would not use a train if a gun was not available.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Your statement has nothing to do with the stats. You promote that guns are the cause of suicides while ignoring countries where guns are restricted still have suicides. You stated that suicides go up with the amount of guns purchased. The article that you provided does not support your statement. The article only mentions that guns are purchased days before a suicide. The conclusion is that they bought the gun to commit suicide. Your opinion is if they couldn’t buy the gun they would not end their life. However, looking at other countries we see suicide committed by other means. To assume that If these people who used a gun to commit suicide did not have access to a gun, they would change their mind is not logical when you have suicides in other countries using other means as the major way of suicide.

In order to prove this opinion, you would have to demonstrate that those who use a gun to end their life would not use a train if a gun was not available.

Try this link, which I linked to previously: hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

 

[adrift]

Try this link, which I linked to previously: hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

This really isn’t much help as it is only a summary of articles. The disclaimer at the beginning of the first article is revealing.

The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling.

So even the ones who are conducting the research aren’t as assured as you are.

This substantiates the claim I have tried to make and that is if they didn’t have a gun they would use another method as they do in Germany.

1. ED physicians and nurses do not believe lethal means restriction can prevent suicide

Physicians and nurses at 8 emergency departments were surveyed about their belief concerning means restriction and whether they asked their patients about guns. Two thirds of nurses thought that most firearm suicide decedents would have died by another method if the firearm had not been available.

Betz, Marian E; Miller, Matthew; Barber, Catherine et al… Lethal means restriction for suicide prevention: beliefs and behaviors of emergency department providers. Depression and Anxiety, 2013 in press.

US has highest gun ownership rate, but ranked 28th in gun homicides

The US rates 33rd in suicide rates

In the articles that are quoted none of them address the suicide in other countries where other methods of suicide are used.

I tried to find the articles referenced with no luck. I have a feeling that the headings are misrepresentations of what was presented. Especially if you look at what the authors themselves say.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This really isn’t much help as it is only a summary of articles. The disclaimer at the beginning of the first article is revealing.

So even the ones who are conducting the research aren’t as assured as you are.

This substantiates the claim I have tried to make and that is if they didn’t have a gun they would use another method as they do in Germany.

US has highest gun ownership rate, but ranked 28th in gun homicides

The US rates 33rd in suicide rates

In the articles that are quoted none of them address the suicide in other countries where other methods of suicide are used.

I tried to find the articles referenced with no luck. I have a feeling that the headings are misrepresentations of what was presented. Especially if you look at what the authors themselves say.

Please reread the article and tell me that the numerous studies reporting a relationship between guns and suicide are not compelling? The quote you used is based on one study only!!!

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997). After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001. States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide.

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001. Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide.

We analyzed data on suicide and suicide attempts for states in the Northeast. Even after controlling for rates of attempted suicide, states with more guns had higher rates of suicide.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year olds and 45 to 84 year olds, but not for 25 to 44 year olds.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts

We added questions to, and analyzed data from the National Comorbidity Study.

Gun owning households do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owning households; differences in mental health do not explain why gun owners and their families are at higher risk for completed suicide than non-gun owning families.

And so on!!!

 

[styrgwillidar]

Ok, and the study I linked you to earlier showed the lack of correlation between gun ownership in countries and the suicide rates.

You want to impose your will on the people of Colorado, without consulting them.

Their representatives that they elected and paid salaries, also wanted to impose their will on the people of Colorado, without consulting or listening to them.

So, regardless of what you, or I, or Mayor Bloomberg, or their paid representatives want to impose on them-- the people of Colorado have been clear now that they will hold their representatives accountable. That they will not have the will of a handful imposed on them. Not when those elected leaders don’t even bother to make the case to the people they are responsible to.

Gun laws aren’t the issue. Accountability of elected officials is the issue.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Ok, and the study I linked you to earlier showed the lack of correlation between gun ownership in countries and the suicide rates.

You want to impose your will on the people of Colorado, without consulting them.

Their representatives that they elected and paid salaries, also wanted to impose their will on the people of Colorado, without consulting or listening to them.

So, regardless of what you, or I, or Mayor Bloomberg, or their paid representatives want to impose on them-- the people of Colorado have been clear now that they will hold their representatives accountable. That they will not have the will of a handful imposed on them. Not when those elected leaders don’t even bother to make the case to the people they are responsible to.

Gun laws aren’t the issue. Accountability of elected officials is the issue.

The studies I linked to apply to the US only, which includes Colorado. The issue of gun control is a well publicized by the media, but you would be surprised how many laws and statutes are passed where the public is left completely in the dark! Laws and statutes are being rewritten all the time without public awareness.

 

[SamH]

The issue of gun control is a well publicized by the media, but you would be surprised how many laws and statutes are passed where the public is left completely in the dark! Laws and statutes are being rewritten all the time without public awareness.

Agreed. When it became widely known how the latest gun control laws were passed in the Colorado is when the recall petitions were passed out. While national democrat leaders scream about the process and poured money into the state to fight it a majority of the democrats that live in these two districts voted for the recall. Again who is representing the interest of the people?

 

[Erich]

Please reread the article and tell me that the numerous studies reporting a relationship between guns and suicide are not compelling? The quote you used is based on one study only!!!

And so on!!!

SSRI’s: The REAL cause of gun violence


But don’t just take my word for it… Google [ssri gun violence] and you’ll see 107,000 other links that say the same thing.

 

[Deus_tecum]

Robert Sock: Again Japan has twice the rate of suicide as the US with virtually no civilian gun ownership. Source? Use a search engine. Perhaps people do not bother sourcing for you as you simply do not reply when they do.

Poster Above Me: I agree there is a strong correlation between SSRI use and violence including suicide. My hypothesis is that SSRIs shunt raw emotions into thought processes. Thus the SSRI user stops feeling anxiety or rage, and calmly starts thinking about ways to express it. They also seem to shut off the part of the conscience that usually stops such things.

 

[Robert_Sock]

SSRI’s: The REAL cause of gun violence

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s6/136976/large/antidepressants.jpg
But don’t just take my word for it… Google [ssri gun violence] and you’ll see 107,000 other links that say the same thing.

Then try refuting this study.

We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/