Two Colo. lawmakers recalled over gun control support

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Robert_Sock said:
… but you would be surprised how many laws and statutes are passed where the public is left completely in the dark! Laws and statutes are being rewritten all the time without public awareness.
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I’m not surprised at all. That’s the problem, our legislature(s) imposing their will vice considering their constituents desires. CA legislature just voted for a law the public here has consistently not supported-- drivers licenses for illegal aliens. They did it by bringing it up on the last day of the session, without any discussion or notification to the public.

That’s wrong. That’s not a representative government. Remember Obama promising that laws would be posted and available for review vice being rushed through. Good idea, should be followed for all laws. And it would be if legislators weren’t arrogant and condescending believing they know better than the general public what’s good for 'em. I know us peasants are just supposed to be quiet and grateful for what our masters do.

In too many states, its too hard to recall legislators, too difficult to hold them accountable, and the politicians have rigged the system to favor incumbents getting elected- you can’t vote them out of office.

Of course, that’s mostly our fault since the majority have bought into party loyalty, supporting a party like its their sports team. Somewhere we lost the reality that these folks are our paid employees. You see it on all the blogs, my dirtbag is ok because one of your dirtbags did something similiar 5 years ago.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Then try refuting this study.
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I already did, law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

If guns weren’t available then the vast majority of those folks would simply have chosen another method. As indicated by the study I linked here and previously. Note, suicide is higher than the US in many countries with less gun ownership.

ETA: But again, the issues is a legislature disregarding the will of the people. And those people than availing themselves of the legal means to hold them accountable.

Kind of like the legal system is affirming our right to the means for self defense.

state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2013/112116.pdf

Decision of the Illinois State Supreme Court that the right to keep and bear arms includes the right to keep and bear arms outside the home.
 
Deus_tecum said:
Robert Sock: Again Japan has twice the rate of suicide as the US with virtually no civilian gun ownership. Source? Use a search engine. Perhaps people do not bother sourcing for you as you simply do not reply when they do.
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Japan is an entirely different culture, with different dynamics. The construct of shame is very prevalent in Japan, for example.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Japan is an entirely different culture, with different dynamics. The construct of shame is very prevalent in Japan, for example.
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Oh- so you’re saying suicide is a cultural thing based on ideas, perceptions and attitudes vice weapons?
 
The issue of suicide is not a good argument against guns. We simply have extremely flimsy bodies; someone determined to die will be able to achieve it, unless all of human life is made into a secure ward.

The only argument against guns is interpersonal violence, something America is now awash in. Unlike suicide, it is harder to kill someone else without a firearm, as you would need either great physical strength or premeditation.

ICXC NIKA
 
styrgwillidar said:
Oh- so you’re saying suicide is a cultural thing based on ideas, perceptions and attitudes vice weapons?
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Suicides are most definitely a cultural phenomenon, with cultures promoting shame having a much higher suicide rate. It makes sense psychologically.
 
GEddie said:
The issue of suicide is not a good argument against guns. We simply have extremely flimsy bodies; someone determined to die will be able to achieve it, unless all of human life is made into a secure ward.

The only argument against guns is interpersonal violence, something America is now awash in. Unlike suicide, it is harder to kill someone else without a firearm, as you would need either great physical strength or premeditation.

ICXC NIKA
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Having a gun handy promotes suicides in those situations where acute distress is experienced. Without having a gun handy, such a person would need to plan and carry-out a method which takes time and where the acute distress has a chance to dissipate.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Suicides are most definitely a cultural phenomenon, with cultures promoting shame having a much higher suicide rate. It makes sense psychologically.
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Then we are in agreement that it is independent of weapons, or weapon availability and can move one.

Again, I see the issue here as having very little to do with guns, but a lot to do with accountability of elected officials.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Please reread the article and tell me that the numerous studies reporting a relationship between guns and suicide are not compelling? The quote you used is based on one study only!!!
And so on!!!
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The “article” is merely a listing of articles written about the subject. I question if the person who prepared the list is accurately portraying the article in question.

What you ignore is that even if there were no guns suicides would still occur. It isn’t the gun that is the cause of people wanting to kill themselves only the means. If that mean was not used others would be.
 
adrift said:
The “article” is merely a listing of articles written about the subject. I question if the person who prepared the list is accurately portraying the article in question.
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But they are not articles, but actual studies!
 
adrift said:
The “article” is merely a listing of articles written about the subject. I question if the person who prepared the list is accurately portraying the article in question.

What you ignore is that even if there were no guns suicides would still occur. It isn’t the gun that is the cause of people wanting to kill themselves only the means. If that mean was not used others would be.
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He didn’t ignore it-- he specifically stated that the culture of Japan is the driver to suicide rates there. Which is also true for any other country-- it is the culture, not availability of weapons.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Who’s to say that the suicide rate in Japan wouldn’t skyrocket if more guns were allowed?
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The United States does not lead the world in suicides despite the guns. We aren’t even in the top ten. In other countries, the leading cause of suicide is not guns but hanging, overdoses and trains.

The legislators ignored the wishes and the well being of their citizens. An international shooting contest was cancelled because the ammunition was outlawed. Therefore all those dollars that would have been spent here are gone. Hunters are boycotting. Their money on licenses, motel rooms, and restaurant will not be realized hurting the owners of these establishments as well as their employees. It isn’t just about those “bad” guns but about people who cannot make a living and have had money taken from their pockets by ideologues who have no care or concern about them.
 
styrgwillidar said:
He didn’t ignore it-- he specifically stated that the culture of Japan is the driver to suicide rates there. Which is also true for any other country-- it is the culture, not availability of weapons.
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So this would be true for the US too? It is the culture of our country not the availability of guns?
 
adrift said:
The United States does not lead the world in suicides despite the guns. We aren’t even in the top ten. In other countries, the leading cause of suicide is not guns but hanging, overdoses and trains.

The legislators ignored the wishes and the well being of their citizens. An international shooting contest was cancelled because the ammunition was outlawed. Therefore all those dollars that would have been spent here are gone. Hunters are boycotting. Their money on licenses, motel rooms, and restaurant will not be realized hurting the owners of these establishments as well as their employees. It isn’t just about those “bad” guns but about people who cannot make a living and have had money taken from their pockets by ideologues who have no care or concern about them.
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As well as Magul leaving the state taking 1,000s of jobs. And the problem now in controlling deer population given that hunting was critical to wildlife management plans.

We can discuss gun control pros/cons. However, the issue is the people of Colorado. They were (and still are) entitled to consider the pros/cons of gun laws and expect their legislators to make their case and then vote in accordance with the constituents desires.
 
adrift said:
So this would be true for the US too? It is the culture of our country not the availability of guns?
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I would say no. Gun availability isn’t a cultural thing. I would say the cultural aspect is the value we place on life, both our own and others, our duty regarding respecting/protecting life.

A culture viewing suicide as dishonorable thing to do would discourage it by whatever means are available.
 
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