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teachccd
Guest
Thank God that the Catholic Church decided to include the deuterocanonical book of Revelations. You would have literally no religion without it. 99% of your doctrine derives there. Your welcome…God Bless…teachccd
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StBenMom
Guest
Amen:thumbsup: :byzsoc:Thank God that the Catholic Church decided to include the deuterocanonical book of Revelations. You would have literally no religion without it. 99% of your doctrine derives there. Your welcome…God Bless…teachccd
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Schabel
Guest
I’ve got a question for you, Steve.
Who is the Author of Life? Is it not God?
Who else could be the Author of Life?
In the Acts of the Apostles 3:15, Peter says that his Jewish audience had “killed the Author of life”.
Who is the Author of Life? Is it not God?
Who else could be the Author of Life?
In the Acts of the Apostles 3:15, Peter says that his Jewish audience had “killed the Author of life”.
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Apryl
Guest
I never heard of the Mutants…
So far, I’ve been lucky: one visit from the JWs and they never return. I just tell them politely that I have a church foundation, and that my parents raised me Catholic. I appreciate what they are doing, but it’s better service to evangelize to those that have no church foundation.
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Apryl
Guest
My grandmother had a sister that was a JW. I have had friends pretty much all my life that were JWs. I used to date a disenfranchised JW.
I don’t not listen because of anything on any site. I think that every thing that JWs profess, other than the idea of preaching to the masses and going out to others, represent things that I want no part of.
Nothing personal, just what I’m not into.
Just curious: If you are a JW, what brings you to a site like this? And what is it that has been posted of your group (on this site) was inaccurate?
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geraldffff
Guest
Colossians (American Standard Version)
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Bible Steve: You can throw the proof text label at me if you wish but if you use your reason you can see the grievous error in the watch tower teaching that Jesus was and is a created angel. If you take the simplest meaning of the bible quote above it is conveying that Jesus partook in creating all the angels in including the archangel Michael.” It is rationally impossible for him to have created himself. Jesus says he and the father are one in being. That’s simple. Each and every human being is one in them self and genetically speaking is also in part the father and mother which is a dim reflection of God who is a trinity who created man in his own image. I will never understand how Jw’s can read Hebrews, if they do, then not come to the conclusion that a rational simple reading of this makes it impossible for Jesus to be a created angel which is what they teach…
Hebrews 1
1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,
2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?
6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
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revelations
Guest
Gerald awesome post! I was putting something like that together but you beat me to it!
Steve, I’m not being judgmental. I am only informing you of the path that your soul is walking. And don’t get the impression I think i’m better than you because I’m not, trust me i have my own basket of problems.
Now, you say you accept Jesus as your savior, which is odd. I went to watchtower.org, and read what they had to say about Jesus. The watchtower rejects every critical point of what Our Lord did for us, and is a slap in His face.
You do not sound like the JW’s i have talked to, what’s up? If you reject the DIVINITY of Jesus, you are condemned, it’s that simple. That’s all I was saying before. I’m not even asking you to become Catholic…but consider the divinity of Christ…please Steve. You are in my prayers, truly.
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BibleSteve
Guest
Jesus didn’t say he and his Father were “one in being”.
He said “I and the Father are one”.
This “in being” phrase is a figment of your imagination… the insertion of bias into the Scripture. It’s not there. I don’t even see it any translations… do you?
Then Jesus went on to say he wanted his disciples to be one just like he and his Father were one.
That is what is simple.
How are his disciples one? Are the “one in being”? Are they a Trinity? No, of course not. But, as Jesus said, they would be one, just as he and His Father are one…
Just as the disciples are, so the Father and Son are.
They are unified. They have the same purpose. They agree with each other. They work together.
But, Jesus and his Father aren’t “one being” any more than his disciples are.
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BibleSteve
Guest
I would suggest to take a closer look… because no where do JW’s reject Jesus at all.
He is the promised Messiah, The Christ, who gave his life as a ransom sacrfice that provides forgiveness of sins, and the opportunity for everylasting life.
We know him, love him, and appreciate what he and his Father YHWH did in making this provision available to us.
www.watchtower.org
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geraldffff
Guest
Thanks Revelations. I have been told by my Jw brother that they do not believe they have immortal souls or spirits. It is so sad that the the only future they have to look forward too is the flawed earth upon which we all reside at this time. I have heard that the watchtower tells people in third world countries that there future reward for peddling the watchtower is that they will live in the houses now occupied by those who are rich. I wounder who will be put in charge of manufacturing toilet paper or weeding the gardens they always depict in their magazines. I do not want to be confined to this earth with the insects and the foul weather after I have died. They do have one belief that is very attractive. That is that if you die and you are not a faithful witness you just cease to exist. The problem is, to embrace that concept you have to give up hope in Jesus. It really surprises me that Bible Steve will not say yea or nay to the question if he is a Jw or not. He has exhibited one Jw trait I have observed over the years. They will not engage in yes or no answers but try to bury those who challenge them in an an avalanche of vaguely related scripture references that do not address the point in question but try to drag you off into an emotional way of looking at scripture. I have had many letters of several pages from my brother filled with judgmental irrational statements. They are to be pitied because the have no hope except and existence like the Israelites had as slaves in Egypt. They even take their peddling and publishing orders from “overseers” like the slaves in the south. While we have priests deacons and bishops they have overseers and become publishers and as slave labor make the Watchtower Publishing company rich. It is my understanding that they get points for every magazine they purchase and peddle and I have reasoned from my brothers statements that when their new world comes the ones who have peddled the most magazines will have that as a credit to his account and will be able to trade with it but the publishing company will be the only place to trade with as they will have all the money in the world. Pity the poor slave existence they have to look forward too.
Gerald awesome post! I was putting something like that together but you beat me to it!
Steve, I’m not being judgmental. I am only informing you of the path that your soul is walking. And don’t get the impression I think i’m better than you because I’m not, trust me i have my own basket of problems.
Now, you say you accept Jesus as your savior, which is odd. I went to watchtower.org, and read what they had to say about Jesus. The watchtower rejects every critical point of what Our Lord did for us, and is a slap in His face.
You do not sound like the JW’s i have talked to, what’s up? If you reject the DIVINITY of Jesus, you are condemned, it’s that simple. That’s all I was saying before. I’m not even asking you to become Catholic…but consider the divinity of Christ…please Steve. You are in my prayers, truly.
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BibleSteve
Guest
Dear Geraldffff,
Of course I am one of JW’s. A simple search on my name would have answered that as I have explained that several times.
As for the rest of your “understanding about JW’s”… you are so far off it’s comical.
Points for placing WT?
I thought I had heard some pretty uninformed beliefs about JW’s, but that’s a new one.
I’d recommend you read up a little more about JW’s before spouting off this type of silliness. You don’t have to agree with us, but at least… at least… get your facts straight.
Goodbye Gerarldffff…
Of course I am one of JW’s. A simple search on my name would have answered that as I have explained that several times.
As for the rest of your “understanding about JW’s”… you are so far off it’s comical.
Points for placing WT?
I thought I had heard some pretty uninformed beliefs about JW’s, but that’s a new one.
I’d recommend you read up a little more about JW’s before spouting off this type of silliness. You don’t have to agree with us, but at least… at least… get your facts straight.
Goodbye Gerarldffff…
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Church_Militant
Guest
Hey BibleSteve,
Wouldn’t it better serve you to actually refute what he has heard than to get offended and bail on him?
Why not just copy quote his post and then open a new thread and refute it in the interest of accurate information?
CM
Wouldn’t it better serve you to actually refute what he has heard than to get offended and bail on him?
Why not just copy quote his post and then open a new thread and refute it in the interest of accurate information?
CM
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geraldffff
Guest
Thats kind of like the pot calling the kettle black as you put an “a” between the words “was” and “God” in the Gospel of John and go door to door peddling that lie. Why do you do this ? Because if you do not insert the letter “a” into a 1600 year old scripture You cannot deny that Jesus is God. Its that simple. So I suggest you stop your false witness and Judging and study who assembled the books of the Bible as this is the JW fatal flaw that they refuse to acknowledge historical fact.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
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geraldffff
Guest
I think its silly too but perhaps you might explain what you will eat or how you will be housed in the earth you are planning to inhabit. Are you claiming that my Jw brother of thirty years has been unable to be informed. I wonder why, perhaps it is the ridiculous fables published by the Watch tower that have failed to inform him.
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DustinsDad
Guest
And the other’s who are with God in His Kingdom.
I’m sorry - you said “ultimately”, and “ultimately” you are either in the book of life (with God in His Kingdom) or not in the book of life (in the unquenchable lake of fire).
**QUESTION: Are the names of the great multitude in the Book of Life?**Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire
So if you’re not in the lake of fire then you are in the book of life. And if you are in the book of life…where are you?
Rev 21:22-27
And I saw no temple therein. For the Lord God Almighty is the temple thereof, and the Lamb. And the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it. For the glory of God hath enlightened it, and the Lamb is the lamp thereof. And the nations shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
Or you could better say - those living in the new heavens and the new earth.
Question: Do the members of the great multitude see God face to face for eternity?Rev 21:3
And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.
Steve - there are some things in Scripture that are subtle and difficult to understand - especially in Revelation. Now I ain’t no expert, but this ain’t one of 'em.
**Question: Where is the great multitude? **Rev 7:9
After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.
I could go on and on - but I’d wind up quoting half the book of Revelation to you.
(And to think - I haven’t even touched on the bizzare literal rendering of 144,000!)
You are in my prayers,
and peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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DustinsDad
Guest
I’m too tired to write it out, I’ll let This Rock do it…from this Q & A:
**Q: The Jehovah’s Witnesses stress the 144,000. What’s the real scoop on this number? **
A: The 144,000 people described in two passages of the Bible: Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5. According to the first passage, they are “the servants of . . . God” (7:3) who are pictured as being sealed upon their foreheads. Verses 4-8 depict there being twelve thousand sealed from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, giving a total of 144,000.
In Revelation 14:1 we are told that the seal on their foreheads is Christ’s and his Father’s name. The 144,000 are with Jesus, and they sing a unique song of worship, which no one else can learn (14:3). In 14:4-5 we are told more about their identity: “It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste [Greek, “virgins”]; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.”
The Witnesses say these people represent the Church of Christ, the Israel of God, and this is a common view among Bible scholars, one that has had a long history in the interpretation of Revelation. The 144,000 are taken as a symbol of the Christian faithful. It is what Witnesses say next that is bizarre.
Supposedly God began collecting the 144,000 at Pentecost in AD. 33 but stopped collecting them in 1935, when the full number was reached. Some of the 144,000 are still living, and they are all Jehovah’s Witnesses. As of 1986 there were only about 9,000 of the 144,000 left alive. Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a larger group, possessing several million members, how are the rest of the Witnesses regarded? As non-members of the body of Christ. They will still be saved in the end, but they will not be part of the body and will not go to heaven. They are considered part of the “great crowd” mentioned in Revelation 7:9-10.
In Jehovah’s Witness “kingdom halls” (church buildings) only members of the 144,000 are allowed to receive communion when the Lord’s Supper is celebrated (which is done infrequently). Sometimes kingdom halls celebrate the Lord’s Supper and no one receives communion since none of the 144,000 are present.
Needless to say, the Witness’s view is riddled with holes. When discussing the 144,000 with Witnesses, make them realize that they are being inconsistent in how they interpret the texts where the 144,000 are mentioned. They insist that there are exactly 144,000 of these people, no more and no less, making it a literal number, but they interpret every other detail about this group in a symbolic manner.
If they were consistent, they would have to conclude that the 144,000 are Jews, drawn equally from the twelve tribes of Israel (most of which are now unrecognizably lost), that they are all male virgins who do not lie and who have two names literally written on their foreheads. The problem is that almost none of the 9,000 Witnesses supposed to be members of this group fit this description. Many of them are married Gentile women with children, and they presumably have bent the truth more than a few times in their lives.
The only detail from the text that the Witnesses take literally is the number. Every other detail of the text is taken non-literally. They should either take all of the details literally or see the 144,000 as a symbol of the Church as a whole (as does virtually everyone else).
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
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BibleSteve
Guest
The book of Revelation distinguishes between a group called the 144,000 and the great crowd who came out of the great tribulation.
I have provided a specific scriptural argument to identify each of the groups.
You say that is wrong.
Then, please explain your understanding of the two groups.
Specific with scriptural reasons please.
I have provided a specific scriptural argument to identify each of the groups.
You say that is wrong.
Then, please explain your understanding of the two groups.
Specific with scriptural reasons please.
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geraldffff
Guest
Bible steve I have a practical question which perhaps you think is silly. You seem to be a sincere guy. Would you indulge. The watchtower at one time taught that you and I have no immortal soul or spirit but only a physical body. When you and I inherit this earth. will we have the same physical body that we have now or will it be changed to a spiritual body like the one the watchtower teaches Jesus presented to Thomas?
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geraldffff
Guest
One meaning of your word distinguishes is 1. To perceive as being different or distinct. Too explain an elephant to a blind man you might invite him to feel the trunk, a distinct part and concept, then ask him to feel the torso, as a distinct part and concept so perhaps and the legs ect. So perhaps he might envision the whole of what God has created. So you see the great crowd, and the 144,000 are concepts that are part of the whole which are those names who are recorded in the book of life. John saw this all in a vision which is subject to interpretation. It all depends on who’s interpretation you trust. Those who were familiar with the languages in which the vision nearest the time it was written down, 1600 years ago or those who pretended to understand the languages in the early 1900’s.
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heisenburg
Guest
Bible…
With humble Respect…
How do you respond to those, such as the CC and most Protestant churches that claim that 144000 is symbolic…
12 X 12 X 1000
the first 12 represents the 12 Jewish Tribes
the second 12 represents the 12 apostles sent out to the world
and 1000 simply meaning ‘a lot’ in scripture
Judaism, the culture this comes out of, is heavy on a numeric meaning as well as literary meaning
In other words… 144000 could simply mean A Lot of Jews and Gentiles will be saved.
You talk about them wearing crowns and being kings. Aren’t we all to be ‘like the angels’, Why can there not also be a similar allusion to saying we will be like kings? The precedent is already there.
With Humble respect In Christ
With humble Respect…
How do you respond to those, such as the CC and most Protestant churches that claim that 144000 is symbolic…
12 X 12 X 1000
the first 12 represents the 12 Jewish Tribes
the second 12 represents the 12 apostles sent out to the world
and 1000 simply meaning ‘a lot’ in scripture
Judaism, the culture this comes out of, is heavy on a numeric meaning as well as literary meaning
In other words… 144000 could simply mean A Lot of Jews and Gentiles will be saved.
You talk about them wearing crowns and being kings. Aren’t we all to be ‘like the angels’, Why can there not also be a similar allusion to saying we will be like kings? The precedent is already there.
With Humble respect In Christ
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