Two more cardinals back Communion for divorced and remarried

[Mackus]

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"160 the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God’s law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.

I am a convert and if I would have known then what I know now; I would not have remarried until my previous marriage was taken care of. But, it is through the Sacrament of Penance and living in complete continence that we are able to be welcomed into the Catholic Church and receive communion. We will continue to live that way until our annulments are granted or unto death.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Perhaps there are other solutions, like confession or spiritual direction? I for one wouldn’t encourage scandalous behavior by “allowing” what’s blatantly sacrilegious.

So if lets say hypothetically by the close of the 2015 synod which takes place a yr from now, the bishops recommendation would be to loosen some restrictions to Communion and the Holy Father Pope Francis is led to agree, faithful Catholics would consider them scandalous and sacrilegious? I’m only asking.

 

[JimG]

What does it mean to “loosen some restrictions?”

Does it mean that marriage is no longer permanent?
Does it mean that divorce and remarriage are possible?
If it does mean that, the question is how?
What is the status of the prior marriage? Is it valid? Is it invalid? Is it annulled through the internal forum? Through a local bishop’s action? Just what happens to the prior marriage bond? It is either valid or it is not.

 

[PRmerger]

So if lets say hypothetically by the close of the 2015 synod which takes place a yr from now, the bishops recommendation would be to loosen some restrictions to Communion and the Holy Father Pope Francis is led to agree, faithful Catholics would consider them scandalous and sacrilegious? I’m only asking.

If you are using Judas as an example, it would seem that you are advocating more than a “loosening”, but rather pretty much * unrestricted communion* to anyone, no?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, a good, holy Seventh Day Adventist ought to be able to receive, right?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, the unrepentant pornographer ought to be able to receive, right?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, the unrepentant guy who tortures animals ought to be able to receive, right?

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger, what I know according to what Matthew wrote in 27:4 of his gospel and if I believe it and take it literally, is Judas went back and told the chief priests and elders that he had sinned and they said that meant nothing to them.

newadvent.org/bible/mat027.htm

And then he committed suicide.

Right.

We have that account but no account of it having been impossible for him to go to confession before or that he went to confession as soon as possible after he shared a table with Jesus

We just don’t know, do we?

So it’s pretty much beyond your pay scale to assume that he was unrepentant when he received the Eucharist.

So with what I can truly know and with what Jesus tells me in Jn 6 about how He would never turn anyone away who feels called to Him, I’m just going to have to still side more on inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness and take my chances when I meet my maker

Even someone from the Westboro Baptist Church? Would he be permitted, if you ran the Catholic Church, to come up for communion holding up his banner that God hates homosexuals? He claims that God wants him to receive communion. His heart tells him that it’s ok.

What say you, Sy, to this?

To answer your last question. I was baptized Catholic and I’ve attended Mass even this yr several times. So knowing how much you seem to pride yourself on being such a fine apologist, I know you must surely know about OCAC. So I’m just going to assume by “back to”, what you meant to say was back to the practice?

I have no idea how you practice, so I can’t answer.

 

[punisherthunder]

Satan has entered the Catholic Church. That’s why such awful things are happening.

 

[ProVobis]

So if lets say hypothetically by the close of the 2015 synod which takes place a yr from now, the bishops recommendation would be to loosen some restrictions to Communion and the Holy Father Pope Francis is led to agree, faithful Catholics would consider them scandalous and sacrilegious? I’m only asking.

As I’ve said before, each of us, including the Pope, has to stand before God at our Immediate Judgement. There are no guarantees that any of us will be saved. Sure they can allow anything but it is up to us to act on our conscience. As it is now, many admit to be receiving in the state of mortal sin. It’s not like we or they need to be told what scandal and sacrilege are. Bad example is bad example, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

 

[ProVobis]

Satan has entered the Catholic Church. That’s why such awful things are happening.

I believe Pope Paul said something like this in 1974.

 

[anthonymarie]

As Pope Francis has said, the Eucharist is medicine, not a prize for the perfect.

To be honest I found this quite a strange analogy given the context in which he said it. Medicine if not taken as directed often does more harm than good! Hence the current discipline.

 

[Sy_Noe]

What does it mean to “loosen some restrictions?”

Does it mean that marriage is no longer permanent?
Does it mean that divorce and remarriage are possible?
If it does mean that, the question is how?
What is the status of the prior marriage? Is it valid? Is it invalid? Is it annulled through the internal forum? Through a local bishop’s action? Just what happens to the prior marriage bond? It is either valid or it is not.

The thread title says 2 more Cardinals back Communion for divorced and remarried. That’s all I know about what it means.

 

[Megan7]

October 13th, 1973 is also when Our Lady of Akita delivered the following, which

Cardinal Ratzinger said was the continuation of Fatima -

“As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible

punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one

will never seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity,

the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find

themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.

The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son.

Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the

bishops and priests.”

“The work of the DEVIL will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one

will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against Bishops. The priests who venerate

me will be SCORNED and Opposed by their confreres…churches and

altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept COMPROMISES and

the DEMON will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the

service of the Lord.

“The DEMON will be especially IMPLACABLE against souls consecrated to

God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins

increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them”

Look at the above date, I think the document causing so much chaos was “released”

on the same day…

+Pax.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If you are using Judas as an example, it would seem that you are advocating more than a “loosening”, but rather pretty much * unrestricted communion* to anyone, no?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, a good, holy Seventh Day Adventist ought to be able to receive, right?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, the unrepentant pornographer ought to be able to receive, right?

If Judas can receive, with the paradigm you are espousing, the unrepentant guy who tortures animals ought to be able to receive, right?

PRmerger, yes I believe in open Communion similar to the faith of several mainline Christian denominations. One of the reasons my religion is described as is. A Baptized, Confirtmed (couldn’t get all that to fit) Non-Practicing Roman Catholic with a different Christian faith. I can be a complex person and everything doesn’t always fit in a simple label for me. I sometimes wish it did. My journey would be so much simpler. But alas it doesn’t.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Right.

We just don’t know, do we?

So it’s pretty much beyond your pay scale to assume that he was unrepentant when he received the Eucharist.

Even someone from the Westboro Baptist Church? Would he be permitted, if you ran the Catholic Church, to come up for communion holding up his banner that God hates homosexuals? He claims that God wants him to receive communion. His heart tells him that it’s ok.

What say you, Sy, to this?

I have no idea how you practice, so I can’t answer.

PRmerger, I don’t run the Catholic Church. I don’t even claim to be a practicing Catholic. Not by any definition I’ve ever seen. I would just say it’s beyond my pay scale to keep people from receiving Jesus. So as I already said, I’m just going to side more with inclusiveness than exclusiveness and take my chances when I face Jesus. I must trust in His infinite ability to understand me and if I’m wrong, in His mercy I pray. Mine is a simpler faith. Jesus said become like children. My faith is based on love and mercy with a decent measure of tolerance thrown in for good measure I truly pray. Peace be with you. God bless!

 

[Sy_Noe]

PRmerger, I don’t run the Catholic Church. I don’t even claim to be a practicing Catholic. Not by any definition I’ve ever seen. I would just say it’s beyond my pay scale to keep people from receiving Jesus. So as I already said, I’m just going to side more with inclusiveness than exclusiveness and take my chances when I face Jesus. I must trust in His infinite ability to understand me and if I’m wrong, in His mercy I pray. Mine is a simpler faith. Jesus said become like children. My faith is based on love and mercy with a decent measure of tolerance thrown in for good measure I truly pray. Peace be with you. God bless!

Couldn’t edit with the time limit and CAF seems to be loading slowly for me at the moment. But just incase anyone questions my “like children” reference. Just to clarify. I believe children are inherently born simply with things like love and mercy and tolerance and such in their hearts. But if they become bullies or intolerant, it’s we adults they learn from. And something I believe we all could work on. Myself included. I’m certainly not perfect. Peace everyone.

 

[muffindell]

Extremely well put, I really could not add to it.

I will say though that I am in a similiar situation, my wife got involved with another man, sexually, I found a letter that she had, hidden, I had been suspicious and searched for evidence, it was all spelled out in the letter. I confronted her, she left for good and I divorced her. How could I stay married to someone who was never coming back? I certainly could not be responsible for her financially, legally or any other way after she was out of my life. There were no children.

Fast forward 6 years later, I met a good woman and we were married, that was 10 years ago. I could have gotten an annullment back then but truthfully, the devastation was so complete that I would not have wanted to deal with it then. I stayed away from the church, I never forgot God, never, I just did not worship or pray properly, not in a way that gives him thanks for all the good things I had received but did not earn.

Recently I have been coming back to mass regularly and attempting to develop a relationship with God that was long overdue and woefully lacking. I went to confession and told the priest about my situation, he replied he could not finish my confession and that I should make an appointment to see him, then he shut the slider, I understand but it was not what I expected.

I looked at the annullment questions online from my Diocese, a lot of that stuff pertaining to what happened 20 years ago, I don’t think I could honestly remember enough to answer, I really think I would be winging it. Look at the questions sometime and you will see what I mean. Get 3 witnesses, no problem, I have the same friends who stood up at my wedding back then, yes they remember it all and told me they are behind me in any way that I need them for this.

Going to church and not going to communion is hard, I have struggled with this greatly, I know people in the similiar situations as I and some go to communion. Truthfully I went a few times, but the guilt was bad, I felt wrong, so I stopped. That being said, when I don’t go, I feel bad too, I feel like I am missing something important, incidentally very few people in my parish don’t go and it’s makes me feel like I have a neon sign over my head with a red “S” on it, probably no-one really notices or even cares but that is how I feel.

I don’t think I did anything wrong in that I would not be granted an annullment, I certainly would never have left my first wife, I still have dreams about her, less now than in the past, reliving the sadness and they always make me feel disheartened when I wake up. I’m sure I have to take some blame for what happened to end my first marriage, I am not completely blameless but I never did anything intentially to ruin it.

Thats why I think the annullment process should be made easier. I don’t see how a tribunal can really decide what happened 20 years ago when I can hardly remember a lot of specifics myself. Saying that I am committing adultery now is hardly the same as cheating on a current spouse, I really don’t feel that it’s in the same ballpark. Expecting people to live alone for the rest of their lives is not, I don’t think what God would really want either, given certain circumstances.

God Bless!!

Well said Phil! So many of us find ourselves in the same situation and understand the pain of not being part of the church. However, a good priest told me that the church may not love you, but God will always love you; maybe some insight of problems Canon law poses. I have much hope for change, God given by the first progressive pope in a long while.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, yes I believe in open Communion similar to the faith of several mainline Christian denominations.

But why not to people who are not mainline?

What if someone wants to get closer to God, but still wants to carry a sign that reads that God hates homosexuals?

Do you think she should be able to receive the Eucharist?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I guess everything would be better if the Church just said that a marriage bond can be broken—that it can be broken by man, and since it’s broken remarriage is possible. But that’s not what Jesus said so I very much doubt that will happen.

Egg-zactly.

Creating a god who says that is simply creating a god that conforms to one’s own palate.

That’s creating a god after the almighty self.

 

[pnewton]

Satan has entered the Catholic Church. That’s why such awful things are happening.

Such big type. It is unnecessary. Of course Satan is attacking the Catholic Church. I was unaware he is a member.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, I don’t run the Catholic Church. I don’t even claim to be a practicing Catholic. Not by any definition I’ve ever seen. I would just say it’s beyond my pay scale to keep people from receiving Jesus. So as I already said, I’m just going to side more with inclusiveness than exclusiveness and take my chances when I face Jesus. I must trust in His infinite ability to understand me and if I’m wrong, in His mercy I pray. Mine is a simpler faith. Jesus said become like children. My faith is based on love and mercy with a decent measure of tolerance thrown in for good measure I truly pray. Peace be with you. God bless!

Do you believe that a husband and wife who are fighting should reconcile before the husband wants to have sex? (Or vice versa, of course).

Or do you believe that any time, no matter how hateful they’ve been to each other, he/she gets to demand, “Let’s get it on. You can’t exclude me.”

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, yes I believe in open Communion similar to the faith of several mainline Christian denominations.

I keep puzzling over this statement. Mainline Christians only? Why?

And why do you reserve for yourself what you object to in the Catholic Church? You get to draw the line somewhere and say, “These people ought not receive”, but you won’t let the CC do this?