Two more cardinals back Communion for divorced and remarried

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I thought you said (in a thread on capital punishment) that the Catholic Church did change its teaching on capital punishment as the teaching in the 1997 catechism was different from the previous teaching in the 1992 catechism?
Anyway, wasn’t torture allowed in the past and considered to be morally acceptable under certain conditions? Similarly with slavery?
Why don’t you give the references for the above?

For example–

Torture allowed: please offer magisterial teaching.
Torture prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Slavery permitted: please offer magisterial teaching.
Slavery prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Incidentally, what 1997 Catechism are you talking about? I thought the latest one we had was from 1992.
 
Why don’t you give the references for the above?

For example–

Torture allowed: please offer magisterial teaching.
Torture prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Slavery permitted: please offer magisterial teaching.
Slavery prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Incidentally, what 1997 Catechism are you talking about? I thought the latest one we had was from 1992.
The slavery example is as follows…

Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica -"Considered absolutely, the fact that this particular man should be a slave rather than another man, is based, not on natural reason, but on some resultant utility, in that it is useful to this man to be ruled by a wiser man, and to the latter to be helped by the former, as the Philosopher states (Polit. i, 2). Wherefore slavery which belongs to the right of nations is natural in the second way, but not in the first.

500 years later after Vatican II Pope Paul VI Guadium et Spes - “Furthermore, whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.
 
Why don’t you give the references for the above?

For example–

Torture allowed: please offer magisterial teaching.
Torture prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Slavery permitted: please offer magisterial teaching.
Slavery prohibited: please offer magisterial teaching.

Incidentally, what 1997 Catechism are you talking about? I thought the latest one we had was from 1992.
I thought everyone knew about it already:
Previous teachings on torture See: Pope Innocent IV: Ad extirpandum. Also see the green New Catholic Encyclopedia entry: torture.
Recent teachings on torture: usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/torture/the-problem-with-torture.cfm
For the 1992/1997 catechism difference: See post #241 in the capital punishment thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=916893&page=17
For slavery see:
Ephesians 6:5
Colossians 3:22
1 Peter 2:18
 
Uh, why are we talking about slavery in a marriage thread? Is someone suggesting marriage is like slavery? :p. I can understand the torture part, dont get me wrong… But slavery…? 😛

(Kidding)
 
…For instance, sometimes my wife will explain in great detail a situation about my mothers statement about what my sister in law said about my brother, last year at holloween… Of course i use my selective hearing powers to prevent hearing any of it, but then, at the end she asks for my opinion and i have to tell her to repeat the entire 15 minute long conversation…😃

Uh oh… Thats when the torture ‘really’ begins for me.😦 …as if the story wasnt bad enough…🤷

(…:D)
 
I thought you said (in a thread on capital punishment) that the Catholic Church did change its teaching on capital punishment as the teaching in the 1997 catechism was different from the previous teaching in the 1992 catechism?
Not quite. The discussion of capital punishment in the 1997 version differs from not just the 1992 version but all previous catechisms, so from that perspective there was certainly a change. I have also alleged, however, that the statements on the 1997 version are prudential, not doctrinal, therefore there is no conflict.
Anyway, wasn’t torture allowed in the past and considered to be morally acceptable under certain conditions? Similarly with slavery?
What one or more popes do at a particular time is not on a par with church doctrine. The church has never claimed that everything done or said, even by popes, is either appropriate or accurate. The doctrine against divorce and remarriage is permanent and unchangeable; it has been constantly reaffirmed and has existed unchanged during the entire history of the church. It is an infallible teaching and is irreformable.

Ender
 
Notice the word “lawful”. These counsels represent the Church laying down the current laws that we see in Canon law today.
You take that term too literally; that is not how it was used.We must now consider each law by itself; and (1) The eternal law; (2) The natural law; (3) The human law; (4) The old law; (5) The new law, which is the law of the Gospel.

Augustine says (De Lib. Arb. i, 6) that “the eternal law is the sovereign type, to which we must always conform.”

Accordingly the eternal law is nothing else than the type of Divine Wisdom, as directing all actions and movements.

Therefore all laws, in so far as they partake of right reason, are derived from the eternal law. Hence Augustine says (De Lib. Arb. i, 6) that “in temporal law there is nothing just and lawful, but what man has drawn from the eternal law.”
(Aquinas ST I-II 93,1 & 93,3)
In this sense it is clear that when a council holds something to be lawful it is meant in the sense that it accords with the eternal law “to which we must always conform”.
But by no means can Divine Revelation be the result of a Counsel or a Synod. Divine Revelation is the direct teaching of Jesus Christ and His Apostles, it is our Deposit of Faith, from which we apply to our lives.
What was recorded in the Bible is only one part of what the church regards as true. The other parts are sacred tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium. The fact that there is no record of Christ condemning something doesn’t mean it is not dogmatically condemned by the church.…sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others. (Dei Verbum #10)
The Deposit of faith outlines Truth, and it can never change.
True…so where is the argument that the teaching on the sinfulness of divorce and remarriage can change?
Nowhere that I know of did Jesus or His Apostles speak directly about having two wives without divorce. Nowhere have I seen it in ecclesiastical tradition, actually indoctrinated into Church teaching, that expressly bans it forever …
…the faithful must remember that even though separated as to bed and board, they remain none the less bound by the bond of marriage with no hope of marrying another… (Catechism of Trent)
Ender
 
The slavery example is as follows…

Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica -"Considered absolutely, the fact that this particular man should be a slave rather than another man, is based, not on natural reason, but on some resultant utility, in that it is useful to this man to be ruled by a wiser man, and to the latter to be helped by the former, as the Philosopher states (Polit. i, 2). Wherefore slavery which belongs to the right of nations is natural in the second way, but not in the first.

500 years later after Vatican II Pope Paul VI Guadium et Spes - “Furthermore, whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.
Thomas Aquinas, while a great saint, a theological giant, a doctor of the Church, is not the magisterium.

Do you have something from the magisterium that endorses slavery?
 
Thomas Aquinas, while a great saint, a theological giant, a doctor of the Church, is not the magisterium.

Do you have something from the magisterium that endorses slavery?
Considering Aquinas’ reputation in the church it seems he should be given the benefit of the doubt and accepted as right unless there is a specific example to demonstrate his error.

I was, however, struck by this phrase: “it is useful to this man to be ruled by a wiser man, and to the latter to be helped by the former”. For a slave to be “helped” by his master is not how we generally consider that relationship, so I wonder if Aquinas’ use of the word slave in that context meant something other than how we normally interpret it.

Ender
 
There are some excellent, erudite, arguments based on authority in the foregoing comments. But, as a practical matter, I see divorced and remarried persons, who have not even applied for an annulment, receiving communion at Mass regularly. No one says anything. The only exceptions I have ever read about (but never witnessed) have involved well-known public figures, usually politicians, who have on rare occasions been refused communion. If this issue were so important, the clergy and the hierarchy would be doing something meaningful to stop such sacrilege. They aren’t and they haven’t.
 
There are some excellent, erudite, arguments based on authority in the foregoing comments. But, as a practical matter, I see divorced and remarried persons, who have not even applied for an annulment, receiving communion at Mass regularly. No one says anything. The only exceptions I have ever read about (but never witnessed) have involved well-known public figures, usually politicians, who have on rare occasions been refused communion. If this issue were so important, the clergy and the hierarchy would be doing something meaningful to stop such sacrilege. They aren’t and they haven’t.
They haven’t but people in the state of mortal sin are bound not to approach for communion. Bishops and priests can’t be put into positions where they judge the state of one’s soul or disposition. They can refuse to administer communion, however, where there is risk to profanity or scandal, but there is a fine line here too. The burden is still on the communicant.
 
Considering Aquinas’ reputation in the church it seems he should be given the benefit of the doubt and accepted as right unless there is a specific example to demonstrate his error.


Even the writings of our current day theological giant, Pope Emeritus B16 cannot be "accepted as right’. We give them the respect of entertaining their writings as theological OPINIONS.

From the preface to his book Jesus of Nazareth: "It goes without saying that this book in no way is an exercise of the magisterium but is solely an expression of my personal search “for the face of the Lord (Psalm 27:8)”
 
Please cite what, exactly, you think endorsed torture in Ad Extirpandum.
If you will go to the New Catholic encyclopedia (green books) and look up “torture” you will find the explanation there. It is also in wikipedia.
 
If you will go to the New Catholic encyclopedia (green books) and look up “torture” you will find the explanation there. It is also in wikipedia.
A Catholic encyclopedia is not an exercise of the magisterium.

Please give the document, and the text that details the Church’s endorsement of torture.
 
A Catholic encyclopedia is not an exercise of the magisterium.

Please give the document, and the text that details the Church’s endorsement of torture.
The encyclopedia explains the issue. The document is the papal bull Ad extirpandum.
 
The encyclopedia explains the issue. The document is the papal bull Ad extirpandum.
There is NOTHING in the papal bull that contradicts the USCCB’s teaching on torture.

Now, if you see some sort of dichotomy, please point it out.

And please use texts from both documents to support your position.
 
There is NOTHING in the papal bull that contradicts the USCCB’s teaching on torture.

Now, if you see some sort of dichotomy, please point it out.

And please use texts from both documents to support your position.
In 1252, Pope Innocent IV sanctioned the infliction of torture by the civil authorities against heretics. See:
rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html
Pope Innocent IV, Bull Ad Exstirpanda (May 15, 1252). This fateful document introduced confession-extorting torture into tribunals of the Inquisition. It had already been reinstated in secular processes over the previous hundred years, during which Roman Law was being vigorously revived. Innocent’s Bull prescribes that captured heretics, being “murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb”
USCCB:
The use of torture must be rejected as fundamentally incompatible with the dignity of the human person and ultimately counterproductive in the effort to combat terrorism (No. 88).
 
Even the writings of our current day theological giant, Pope Emeritus B16 cannot be "accepted as right’. We give them the respect of entertaining their writings as theological OPINIONS.

From the preface to his book Jesus of Nazareth: "It goes without saying that this book in no way is an exercise of the magisterium but is solely an expression of my personal search “for the face of the Lord (Psalm 27:8)”
If the argument is that we may ignore the Doctors and Fathers of the church because they were not universally right, we are basically dismissing everything not explicitly written by a council or proclaimed as binding by a pope. This goes way too far. It is surely true that something is not doctrine simply because a saint has expressed an opinion on it, but it is equally true that we cannot ignore their positions simply because “they’re not always right.” As I said, they deserve the benefit of the doubt and their positions rejected only when there is clear evidence to the contrary.

Ender
 
If the argument is that we may ignore the Doctors and Fathers of the church because they were not universally right, we are basically dismissing everything not explicitly written by a council or proclaimed as binding by a pope.
No one has posited that we may ignore the Doctors and Fathers of the Church.

In fact, what I have posited is the opposite of that. I said we must entertain and give respect to their opinions.
We give them the respect of entertaining their writings as theological OPINIONS.
 
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