two questions about evolution as I consider leaving the church

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Evolution as we know it is comprised of three main things:
  1. Natural Selection
  2. Common Descent
  3. Neodarwinian (ND) Random Mutation
Maybe as you know it. But that’s not what the theory is about. Darwin’s theory had five points. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to go and see what they are?
1 and 2 are facts. 1 is actually a tautology,
Actually, it’s not. Would you like to learn why?
3 is more controversial. The concept that random, unguided, purposeless mutation can account for the complexity in life, as well as the tendency towards more ordered and complex forms is not at all a proven fact.
In fact, as Darwin discovered, it wasn’t random. As I said, wouldn’t it be a good idea to learn what the theory actually says?
The thing that a lot of NDers do not really account for, is that complexity is not always better for survival.
Um, that’s wrong, too. For example, evolutionary theory predicts that unnecessary functions will tend to disappear, since they have a cost to the organism, and those without such functions will be more likely to leave offspring.
Look at viruses, which are (most scientists believe) reverse-evolved from other lifeforms.
No. BTW, there is no “reverse-evolved.” Viruses are likely episomes, bits of nucleic acid that separated from (likely prokaryotes) and became able to inter other cells.
I believe, based upon what I know as fact,
See above. A lot of what you “know”, ain’t so.
 
Hello TEX. You ask good questions. For your information, I’m an atheist. Science is not my career, but one of my hobbies is studying evolution so hopefully I can answer your questions.

First of all there is nothing random about evolution. One of the most important mechanisms of evolution is natural selection which works the same as the artificial selection you were talking about. In artificial selection the breeder selects the animals that he allows to pass on their genes to the next generation. In bloody natural selection, the animals who have what it takes to survive long enough to become parents pass on their genes to the next generation. Copying errors, also known as mutations, are random, but the natural selection of favorable mutations is not random at all.

You talked about God using evolution to create. Sorry, but the god hypothesis is not necessary to explain the diversity of life. Evolution works just fine without supernatural intervention.

You said “My problem is: if evolution is random…and God is not random…then how do the two mix exactly?”

Like I said before, evolution is most definitely not random. I would also add that God doesn’t exist for the simple reason God is obsolete. We now have something called science which explains the natural processes that make supernatural intervention unnecessary. Scientists will never have answers for everything, but that’s no reason to assume magic, also known as God, should be invoked for anything.

You said “If we accept that humans evolved through lower animals from the ultimate source of pond scum, then that means God simply waited for 14 billion years for us to arrive on the scene.”

I don’t like this “lower animals” stuff. All animals, including human animals, have evolved to be good enough to survive in the environments they live in. I don’t think it’s fair to call other animals lower than us. For example we don’t have the best eyesight, without our modern inventions we can’t live under water, we can’t fly, we are not the strongest species, we are not the fastest runners, etc. There is no lower animal. We are just one of many species. We are just one small branch on a vast tree of life. People are not the big deal they think they are.

Where life began could have been near a volcano under the sea, so I don’t much care for this “pond scum” idea. Scientists are still trying to figure out how the first living cells appeared. Of course it was a natural process. Life is just chemistry.

The universe began about 14 billion years ago, and our planet formed about 4.6 billion years ago. Our ancestors didn’t start looking like modern humans until about 100,000 or 200,000 years ago, so God had a very long wait for his favorite creatures, didn’t it? This is another good reason to throw out the God idea in my opinion. If we pretend there is a God, I doubt this God would even know or care we are here. Remember how unimaginably vast the universe is and how incredibly insignificant our planet is. The disappearance of earth could be compared to the disappearance of one grain of sand from the Sahara Desert. That’s how vast the universe is. Why would a god care about stupid human apes on this tiny planet in the middle of nowhere?

This was your best question: “Once evolution is accepted it cannot remain a past event…what next?”

Evolution has no goals so it’s difficult to imagine what humans will look like a million years from now. Some scientists think the evolution of humans has become very slow compared to the past. Now it’s possible for the dumbest and most lazy people to survive and reproduce, so virtually everyone gets naturally selected.

Another good question you asked: “How can there be separation from God; i.e. original sin, if we are evolved animals?”

Sorry, but if you’re going to accept evolution, the original sin idea has to go in the garbage along with the God idea. Lots of Christians who love evolution will strongly disagree with me, but I don’t see any point in pretending the Christian religion makes any sense if we are just animals, and no better than any other animal.

You also said “oh Savior save us.”

Sorry, but there’s nothing to save us from, and there’s nobody to save us. We are on our own here. We are free to destroy our only home, the earth, or we can work hard to save our planet for future generations. The success or failure of our species is completely up to us. No supernatural creature is going to help us.

Sorry about the long comments. See you next time, TEX.
 
Another good question you asked: “How can there be separation from God; i.e. original sin, if we are evolved animals?”

Sorry, but if you’re going to accept evolution, the original sin idea has to go in the garbage along with the God idea.
Thank you. I think this is a good enough reason to stop beating my head against the wall trying to believe in evolution.

I talk to God every day, so I know He exists. And the evidence for Original Sin is on the front page of my morning newspaper every single day of the week. 🙂
 
Sorry, but if you’re going to accept evolution, the original sin idea has to go in the garbage along with the God idea.
This is not true. Evolution is not, for example, incompatible with a literal Adam and Eve as common ancestors of all of us, nor is it incompatible with them experiencing a fall from innocence by acting against God’s will for them.

Indeed, it appears that a sense of good and evil (which is essential for fellowship with God) was the significant difference between man and other animals.

The Church teaches that the creation story can be allegorical, and the story of the fall is entirely consistent with Adam and Eve being given immortal souls and failing to accept God’s will for them.
 
Sorry, but the god hypothesis is not necessary to explain the diversity of life. Evolution works just fine without supernatural intervention.
I agree. This doesn’t mean they two ideas are incompatible.
I don’t like this “lower animals” stuff. All animals, including human animals, have evolved to be good enough to survive in the environments they live in. I don’t think it’s fair to call other animals lower than us.
It is if Christianity is correct. If it’s not, then the sentence you quoted is incoherent on its face, so the second part needn’t be addressed at all, since it’s based on a false premise. Either way, this is an absurd objection.
If we pretend there is a God, I doubt this God would even know or care we are here. Remember how unimaginably vast the universe is and how incredibly insignificant our planet is. The disappearance of earth could be compared to the disappearance of one grain of sand from the Sahara Desert. That’s how vast the universe is. Why would a god care about stupid human apes on this tiny planet in the middle of nowhere?
For the same reason a guy over on business in Japan could care about some little girl in Florida: she’s his daughter and he loves her.
Thank you. I think this is a good enough reason to stop beating my head against the wall trying to believe in evolution.
Oh I wouldn’t let hogwash like that bother you. It’s simply a non sequitur that evolution means there couldn’t have been original sin.
 
I don’t like this “lower animals” stuff. All animals, including human animals, have evolved to be good enough to survive in the environments they live in. I don’t think it’s fair to call other animals lower than us. For example we don’t have the best eyesight, without our modern inventions we can’t live under water, we can’t fly, we are not the strongest species, we are not the fastest runners, etc. There is no lower animal. We are just one of many species. We are just one small branch on a vast tree of life. People are not the big deal they think they are.
Wow - this is quite extraordinary. I am going to lobby Congress to pass a law that allows me to slaughter your kind for meat. What say you?

Then Hitler was right after all.
 
Bob: Thanks for your post, but jeeze, it was filled with so much ignorance of what Christians actually believe and why they think the way they do I almost soiled myself. I don’t even know where to start nor do I care to.

Anyway, it’s funny how your types always talk about “vast distances” and “the VAST tree of life”, blah blah- but then did you ever think that it’s quite remarkable that the quality (it is a quality, not a quantity Mr. Democritus) of vastness is in of itself a “special” human concept. Quantity is always relative. You’re using philosophical, quality and purpose as concepts to try to destroy philosophy (superceded by “science”), quality (illusions of our brains), and purpose (accident).

I read a great rejoinder by Miller (the evolutionary biologist) against a fellow scientist who thought he could explain religion as a “god module”- how do you know there isn’t merely a module-module? 😉

Also, we might debate whether or not we are “higher” but did you ever realize that the fact that we even debate the question must mean something, because AFAIK, an orangutan does not.
 
jmcrae, you said “I think this is a good enough reason to stop beating my head against the wall trying to believe in evolution.”

One of the nice things about science is you don’t have to believe anything. Belief is not required because there’s this thing called scientific evidence. Evolution has tons of evidence. Extremely powerful evidence from analysis of DNA has made it impossible for an educated person to deny the basic facts of evolution.

You also said “I talk to God every day, so I know He exists.”

Sorry, but I find your conversations with the Universe Boss to be a bit hard to believe. A one-way conversation is certainly possible. I hear this is called praying, also known as talking to yourself. When you imply God talks to you, an atheist (and maybe some theists) might question your sanity. I will give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you were joking.

jmcrae, you also said “And the evidence for Original Sin is on the front page of my morning newspaper every single day of the week.”

There’s almost 7 billion human apes on this planet, so it shouldn’t be a surprise if a small percent of them are violent. When I read the newspaper I notice most of the violence is religious. I also sometimes read news stories about the Christian war against science education. Some Christians, instead of spending their time learning about evolution and the massive evidence for it, prefer to try to suppress the teaching of evolution in public schools. This is a serious problem in America, and this is one of the reasons I look forward to the (non-violent) eradication of religions.

Mr. buffalo, responding to my complaint about the “lower animals” idea, said “Wow - this is quite extraordinary. I am going to lobby Congress to pass a law that allows me to slaughter your kind for meat.”

I know you were joking but I would like to point out that meat eating species, including our species, usually choose another species to hunt and eat.

I know my ideas may seem very strange to people who have lived their entire lives believing humans are special creations of God, created to be completely separate from the rest of nature. But the more I study evolution, the more I realize the human ape species is not that big a deal. Our biggest advantage, our larger brain, makes us better in some ways, but without our modern inventions, which most people couldn’t invent even if their lives depended on it, we could not survive in the environments other animals have evolved to live in.
 
jmcrae, you said “I think this is a good enough reason to stop beating my head against the wall trying to believe in evolution.”

One of the nice things about science is you don’t have to believe anything. Belief is not required because there’s this thing called scientific evidence.
When a creature gives birth to what is not of its own species, but a new, hitherto unknown species, of greater complexity and better adapted to the local environment than itself (and capable of reproducing its own kind when mated with the opposite sex, which presumably is being born in close proximity), then I will believe. Not before.
Evolution has tons of evidence. Extremely powerful evidence from analysis of DNA has made it impossible for an educated person to deny the basic facts of evolution.
You might be thinking of micro-evolution - small changes within the same species.
You also said “I talk to God every day, so I know He exists.”
Sorry, but I find your conversations with the Universe Boss to be a bit hard to believe. A one-way conversation is certainly possible. I hear this is called praying, also known as talking to yourself. When you imply God talks to you, an atheist (and maybe some theists) might question your sanity.
Sure, they might. Then again, my “fantasy” doesn’t interfere with my job or my family life in any detrimental way (and in fact, it makes me easier to work with and live with), so they don’t lock me up, or anything. 🙂
I will give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you were joking.
I wasn’t.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t hear God speaking to me with a strange voice in my head all that often. (Twice or maybe three time in my life, so far.) Mostly, He speaks to me through the medium of other people, through the teachings of the Church, and through nature. For example, I might pray and ask God a question. Then, my telephone will ring, and my friend will tell me the answer to my question, even though, from her point of view, she is telling me a story about her day, or about her plans for the afternoon, or whatever. Or else I might go to Mass later in the day, and someone will read something out that contains the answer to my question, or I might notice something as I’m walking or driving, that shows me the answer to the question that I was asking, or gives me a new perspective on something I’ve been wondering about.
jmcrae, you also said “And the evidence for Original Sin is on the front page of my morning newspaper every single day of the week.”
There’s almost 7 billion human apes on this planet, so it shouldn’t be a surprise if a small percent of them are violent. When I read the newspaper I notice most of the violence is religious.
I don’t think most of those gangsters who are beating up old ladies downtown ever went to Sunday School. As far as war goes, religion doesn’t really enter into it - people are fighting for power and for the right to live freely in their own country.

How religion enters into it is that people want to be free to practice their religion without being penalized economically. In places where you can be any religion you want, and still be able to participate in the economy, we don’t see this kind of violence. That’s why I believe in freedom of religion.
I also sometimes read news stories about the Christian war against science education. Some Christians, instead of spending their time learning about evolution and the massive evidence for it, prefer to try to suppress the teaching of evolution in public schools.
I don’t think it should be suppressed. But I do think that people need to be taught that you don’t have to just accept everything that you’re told in school as “fact,” since a lot of it is just speculation.
 
mschrank said “Also, we might debate whether or not we are ‘higher’ but did you ever realize that the fact that we even debate the question must mean something, because AFAIK, an orangutan does not.”

Yes, our species has been extremely successful. For example, we have been to the moon, and we will probably get to Mars, hopefully in my lifetime.

We are so successful many people forget what we really are, just a product of evolution. We exist because of the same mechanisms that created every other species. People forget that even though we are smarter than most species, we are not so great at other things. We don’t even have a monopoly on intelligence. For example dolphins could be just as intelligent as us, but they can’t live out of water, and they don’t have our hands. The eagle can see much better. The cheetah can run much faster. The squirrel can climb a tree faster. There’s thousands more examples I could give.

I’m not denying our amazing accomplishments. I just think people should not get the idea we are very superior to all other life. We are not even at the top of the food chain. Anyone who has encountered a grizzly bear or a great white shark would agree.
 
jmcrae, the same DNA analysis that is used for paternity testing in humans is used to test for evolutionary relationships. Our courts and even creationists accept the results of paternity testing. Creationists don’t understand the exact same method has shown beyond any doubt we are closely related to the other Great Apes.

Your “When a creature gives birth to what is not of its own species, but a new, hitherto unknown species…” is a misconception. For example, no biologist ever said an ancient ape gave birth to a modern human. This process took millions of years. It was a long serious of baby steps over a vast period of time. Since the first living cells appeared almost 4 billion years ago, life has been gradually changing every generation. 4 billion years is an unimaginably long period of time, more than enough time for natural selection and other mechanisms of evolution to create the diversity of life we see today. The idea that each species was magically created by a god is an ancient myth. If creationists spent more time studying evolution instead of complaining about it, there would be no more creationists.

You said about the teaching of evolution: “I don’t think it should be suppressed. But I do think that people need to be taught that you don’t have to just accept everything that you’re told in school as ‘fact’, since a lot of it is just speculation.”

Evolution is not speculation. Creationists don’t have any idea how massive and powerful the evidence is. Evolution is not an opinion. It’s as much a fact as our planet’s orbit around the sun. The people who refuse to study evolution have some religious boundary they are not able to cross. Their brains have been programmed to automatically reject any evidence that conflicts with the idea that people are special creations of God. I don’t know what can be done for these people. It’s too bad for them. They will die without ever knowing what they are. To me it seems to be a terrible waste of a life to never understand how the world works.

The creationists have no idea what they’re missing. The history of life as explained by the science of evolution is thousands of times more interesting than the boring magical creation myth.
 
The creationists have no idea what they’re missing. The history of life as explained by the science of evolution is thousands of times more interesting than the boring magical creation myth.
I don’t believe that God just sort of snapped his fingers and “poof”, creation magically sprang forth without even knowledge being involved. We believe that God is the awesome unquantifiable intelligence behind the history of life and is infinitely more interesting than the science of evolution, as deservedly interesting as all his works are.
 
fhansen, you can only make wild guesses about God. Meanwhile, thanks to the hard work of tens of thousands of scientists we know many facts about the history of life. Facts are more interesting than wild guesses, and reality is much more interesting than fantasies. Accepting facts that have evidence is more rewarding than making guesses and pretending those guesses are correct.

To me the creationists who do nothing except say “God did it” are very lazy compared to the scientists who work hard to make scientific discoveries

I noticed no creationist has ever described how God made creatures. I imagine a sky fairy with a magic wand who dreams up disgusting creatures like cockroaches and rats, says a few magic words, and poof, vermin appears.

I don’t believe in the sky fairy or what Christians call God, but I noticed some Christians who accept evolution think it’s insulting to God to believe He would waste his time creating millions of different species. Biologists have figured out the diversity of life can be explained by natural processes. The creationists believe God is dumb enough to waste His time doing what nature can do by itself.

I noticed the more people know about science, they less likely they are to believe in a supernatural magician. This 1998 survey of the National Academy of Sciences is interesting: “Leading scientists still reject God” tinyurl.com/2jgm4
 
2)…what does God intend to evolve from human beings?
I’m just going to answer this question, because the rest has been done, and I’m feeling humourous 😃

Your answer: 6’5" red-heads with dark brown eyes and a very nice inclination to tan well. 😉
This goes along with my theory of linguistic evolution: anyone would recognize their language 500 years in the past or future, since it changes so slowly. Similarly, we would still recognize a human of the distant, not-so-distant future, since evolution changes so slowly. People have been getting taller for centuries, not sure how that works…perhaps the male of the future will have faster-growing beards, who knows? All that we’re certain of, is that they will still be human, have spirit-souls, and God desires them to be happy with Him forever in the next life.
 
Hello Bobx2x2;
In artificial selection the breeder selects the animals that he allows to pass on their genes to the next generation.
That’s easy when you start from existing life, now if your breeder could go and make a new breed of dog from a box of chemicals I would be impressed. Evolution is a cosy theory and likes to start of from established life.
Scientists will never have answers for everything, but that’s no reason to assume magic, also known as God, should be invoked for anything.
Even science has to find an explanation for magic, there are only two possible explanations for the universe to exist. Something had to have no beginning, or something had to come from nothing.

So you start of by saying particle x always existed; but how can you have a scientific explanation for that.

Or you could say that there was nothing and then particle x came into existence from nothing, more magic.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
 
fhansen, you can only make wild guesses about God.
I’m much more impressed with the scientists who do both the hard work of seeking to know God the creator and have a love for understanding the universe we live in. A physicist I know said he always knew there was intelligence behind the universe-I mean you can’t build a birdhouse without some modicum of bra(name removed by moderator)ower -but he wasn’t so interested because that god was strictly a sterile “god of science”, so to speak. But in any case, interest in science and belief in God were never mutually exclusive in the past.
The darndest thing is that whether we like it or not God has revealed himself to humans. And sometimes I almost wish it wasn’t so because those whom he’s been revealed to come off as crazy to those who know that God couldn’t possibly exist or wouldn’t bother talking to humans even if he did. The one thing I’m quite sure of is that he won’t reveal himself to anyone whose main reason for not giving him a halfway serious look is their own pride-or fear of what others think. I know this because after everything was said and done I had to realize that pride was the main reason for my own unbelief but I didn’t realize it at first and maybe that has nothing to do with you anyway. Christians just maintain that the concept of a creator God, or first cause, etc, is not an implausible one and, oh yeah, it just so happens to be the truth as well-not only the bit about being the cause of everything but also the part about God being love. And now it almost seems too bad that I have to say this, because of how I once thought, but it is so naive to not believe in God. You can get an inkling that there’s “something bigger” than us when you gain insight into the reality and transcendent nature of evil and also of good, especially of love-and especially if you’ve loved intensely enough that you know you’d die for someone. In any case, the main “problem” is that if there is a God it should be a fairly simple matter for him to contact a human being and tell her or him whatever is on his mind. Now even a five-year-old knows that its not so easy to get specific or complicated info into the head of an animal so maybe that has something to do with this hierarchy debate concerning the difference between humans and our furry (well, often furry) relatives. I happen to think it’s much less egocentric and also more intelligent to simply acknowledge the differences between the various species for what they are-humans being way different than animals in terms of things like creativity and the ability to learn and love and choose between this or that and make judgments on things like whether humans are better than animals or not while animals don’t seem to care much about such things. And animals are superior in their own ways but so what? Humans may look kind of weak and scrawny and hairless and all compared to some animals but come to think of it I wouldn’t want humans to look any other way-I especially like the way the opposite sex looks and might be pretty perturbed over any major changes there. In any case, if you’re afraid of looking like a fool to yourself and others, don’t search for God or ask Him to reveal Himself to you, no matter how profound and ineffable and totally delightful and satisfying to the very depths of your being that experience may be.
 
Eric Hyom, if you want to stick God before the Big Bang that’s fine with me. That’s the only gap your god of the gaps can safely hide in. However, what’s the point of sticking God anywhere? If some question has not been answered yet, it’s better to say the natural explanation is unknown and leave it at that. If you invent God, instead of solving a problem, you just create a new problem, where did the god come from. Invoking magic to solve unanswerable questions is pointless.

You talked about artificial selection. It has been estimated that humans have been breeding cows for 8,000 years. Compare that to almost 4 billion years of natural selection and it’s easy to see how in that vast amount of time so many creatures could have evolved.

You said “Evolution is a cosy theory and likes to start from established life.”

Yes, evolution needs life to evolve from. Like I said earlier, there is still no consensus on how the first living cells appeared, however I wouldn’t call that a very safe place for the god of the gaps to hide in. Life is just chemistry. In the right conditions natural processes should be able to create life very easily. We know it happened on at least one planet. It’s pretty darn crazy to pretend the first life appeared magically, especially in the 21st century when science is rapidly solving so many problems.

I don’t know much about it, but I have heard a few ideas scientists have about how life began. Life could have arose near a volcano under the sea, and this process could still be going on today. Another idea is when the solar system was very young countless comets were crashing into earth and those comets could have contained organic matter that helped life begin here.

Did I talk anyone into throwing out God yet? Probably not. Sometimes a young person is willing to throw out ancient myths. Older people don’t change their minds so easily.

fhansen said “Humans may look kind of weak and scrawny and hairless and all compared to some animals but come to think of it I wouldn’t want humans to look any other way-I especially like the way the opposite sex looks and might be pretty perturbed over any major changes there.”

We agree about that!
 
I have two questions about evolution that I need answered, and my future in the Church depends on how they are answered.
  1. If we accept evolution as many Catholics do, then how is it possible for God to create through evolution when evolution is a “random” process?
Hi Tex,

There is a subtle issue here: there is a difference between being random and being uncaused, or not caused by lawful principles.

All that randomness means (including in a genetic sense) is that events are statistically independent – i.e., that,. basically, all alternatives are equally probable. The roll of a die is random, because each side (1, 2, …, 6) has the same probability of showing. But God could be causing the outcome in any case; it only requires that God chooses 1, 2, …, 6 each the same proportion of times over all rolls of the die.

In any case, should a technical issue like this really cause you to question your own faith? Are you that confident of your own powers of logic?

Often something else happens: we have an unconscious or ulterior motive to doubt our faith; this unconscious motive then affects our reasoning process, so that we pay too much attention to superficial or false arguments, or don’t consider better explanations.

This might apply also to your question about animals and humans. There’s a difference between the human body, the human intellect, and the human soul. While it’s true that the human body appears to have some biological evolutionary relationship to animals, that per se doesn’t mean that our intellect or our souls are evolutionarily linked to those of animals.

ficino
 
Call me crazy, but the evidence for evolution is so flimzy.

For one, there are gaps in the archeological layers. life just seems to show up at different times, instantly.

If evolution were true, we would see a gradual fossil record of ever changing species. We do not.

There is no evidence of the ever changing ape man. NONE
they have a couple of deformed skulls that could be anomalies. we have deformed humans alive now. We have africans who have monkey like structures. Who says they have to have been monkeys. Why can’t they have always been human. The Archelogical eveidence shows no slow transfer.
No other science could get away with that level of evidence. But because it attempts to embarrass the Church and attempts to dicredit Christ, then it is givin Carte Blanche.

Second, If evolution turns out to be true, God is the Author of the physical world and the spiritual world, they will not contradict eachother.

We may not understand it all yet, but I think we will find that God
created this magnificent cosmos to share his gloriousness.

Have you ever looked at the complexity of the human eye I mean, the level of molecular and cellular complexity for each and every component is baffling.

The molecular and cellular difference between each cell in your body, all muscles, organs, bones, etc… And they all work in concert, each doing its own thing to keep us alive. With an electrical current from no where, keeping us going. no metal no wires. Wow, and the brain and our conscienceness, and ability to reason and solve.Wow

And thats just us. You have all sea life, fish , sea plants, whales, sharks, shell fish, jellies, plankton, bacteria…etc.

insects of all kinds.millions

All birds

All animals

all plants and trees,

reptiles

Bacterias

elements,

rocks, dirt,

Pretty complicated stuff
Not the simpple stuff darwin talked about
 
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