two questions about evolution as I consider leaving the church

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Okay. Don’t mean to argue here, just questioning. If nature drives toward survival, doesn’t that mean it is being is being guided by a greater power, God? :confused: Yes, I think you are right, the Church did say Science cannot prove nature is random. We all have our little limitations, don’t we?:yup:
Science will generally avoid saying that nature is somehow guided by a “Higher” power because this brings in the “God” factor which cannot be defined, measured or proven in scientific terms.

In a sense science is in a similar position to Church.
We believe that the RCC teaches truth and cannot teach error. However people in the Church can make errors. The Church is perfect, but the members are sinners.
“Science” believes only what it can measure, or prove by some repeatable method. It can neither prove nor disprove God. This does not mean that all persons in the sciences will avoid the question of God. Only that these are individuals and their beliefs rather than the belief of Science.

Peace
James
 
Professor wins prize for maths link to God

… “He has introduced a significant notion of theology of science. He has succeeded in showing that religion isolating itself from scientific insights is lame, and science failing to acknowledge other ways of understanding is blind.”
 
No, the soul is the form of the body–well, technically :D, the pneuma or atmos is the morphos of the soma–not to be confused with sarx, which is what the body becomes when the soul leaves it. See, “form” is formal cause: that which makes a thing what it is. When the body dies, it ceases to be what it is and becomes something else.
Well, it ceases to be alive, but it’s still human. Our souls will be reunited with our bodies, and we will rise again on the Judgment Day.
God gave Adam a different kind of soul because he gave tigers different souls from turtles and ducks different souls from aardwolves: because they’re different things.
Yes. Which is why a non-human body cannot receive a human soul.
Adam’s soul, however, was radically different in making him rational.
Yes - Adam’s soul was rational. But if he had parents, they had animal souls, not human souls - which means that their bodies also could not have been human bodies.
 
I have two questions about evolution that I need answered, and my future in the Church depends on how they are answered…
Hello. Its good to ask questions. Don’t abbandon your faith just becuase you are finding it differcult to reconcile it with Science. I have been in same place as you, and what it really come down to is faith. Not blind faith, but faith that there are qeustions to your answers. Ask God to help you before you leave the Church. To make a reasonable and responsible decision to leave God, You must at least read every book you can possibly find on the issue. Some people are far too quick on the draw, not realising there is a wealth of information out there that has answers. You just need to find them. God likes people who hunt for the truth, becuase that means that they really want the truth. As someone else has suggested “Finding Darwins God” is a Good Start.
  1. If we accept evolution as many Catholics do, then how is it possible for God to create through evolution when evolution is a “random” process? .
Your first assumption is that these things can happen in the first place with out Gods existence. What nature produces, is dependent on the ultimate reality of existence; because that is what defines the powers and pontetiality of nature. Whether things arise through system of evolution or not, is not really relevent. The qeustion is, why should these things arise at all. Why should any given random variation of complexity, based on atomic structures, give rise to animated beings that seek survival. Why should any random mutation give rise to any meaningfull behavior that would eventually result in selfawarness. You see; the process by which certain states come to exist may very well be random, but the states in themselves our not accidental or random at all. It has always been a fact of nature since the beginning of time space and energy, that given a specific variation of complexity, an organism will arise with the ability to know, desire, love, understand right and wrong, have sex, have children, to see and comprend the beauty, rational structure, and order of the universe. The universe, whether random or designed, works towards rational comprehendable ends which make absolute sense. Why not something completly irrational poping into existence; lets say, an armadillo rather then a universe? What is it that defines that a universe like ours should come to exist? It cannot be Nature since nature began to exist! Its the propaganda of naturalism that makes it seem as if there are contradictions between the universe and Gods existence.

What one needs to ask is, what lies at the root of that nature? Is it Aboslutly nothing but time energy and space? Or is it God? I think it is aboslutly reasonable to think that it is God, becuase if there is no God; then why should reality begin to exist and produce all these meaningfull things including ourselves in the firstplace? That cannot be a matter of Chance, since the things of this world can only arise by chance once the universe has inherited a nature of being by which things can arise. Plus things are not entirely random; they are shaped by the enviroment, the other objects around it, and the hidden potentails of nature that arise as a result.
  1. If we accept that humans evolved through lower animals from the ultimate source of pond scum, then that means God simply waited for 14 billion years for us to arrive on the scene…
God doesn’t wait; God is timeless.
This raises some interesting questions the main one I have is what does God intend to evolve from human beings?.
That depends on whether or not God intends that human beings should evolve; and if they do evolve into something else, that would simply mean the end of the human race as we know it. I can imagine a senario where human beings become barren in their reproductivity before they ever have a chance to evolve into a muti-dimensional creature of some sort.
Once evolution is accepted it cannot remain a past event…what next? A secondary question as to the reality of original sin enters here as well. How can there be separation from God; i.e. original sin, if we are evolved animals? .
Original sin can happen whether or not evolution happened. Human brain is so complex, that it makes sense that an organsim that is “worthy of a soul”, would have been a small event. Possibly two twins; a male and a female. The first two creatures, endowed with a eternal soul by God, simply chose not to do Gods will. Hence, everybody who was born from then on was effected.
 
Science will generally avoid saying that nature is somehow guided by a “Higher” power because this brings in the “God” factor which cannot be defined, measured or proven in scientific terms.

In a sense science is in a similar position to Church.
We believe that the RCC teaches truth and cannot teach error. However people in the Church can make errors. The Church is perfect, but the members are sinners.
“Science” believes only what it can measure, or prove by some repeatable method. It can neither prove nor disprove God. This does not mean that all persons in the sciences will avoid the question of God. Only that these are individuals and their beliefs rather than the belief of Science.

Peace
James
And so we go round and round, don’t we? 😉 Thanks James. Peace.
 
I would so sorry that you might lose your faith because of a “theory” that does not have a answer yet to make it a fact. I believe, because when I see the vastness and order of the universe, I can not believe that it got there just by magic or even when two banes touch as some would say…🙂 . Also no branch of science has the answers yet on most things. They have their thoughts that this is the way things are and this may be the reasons. Just look at cosmetology. Where and what is this dark energy and dark matter that make up of 70% of the universe? It has to be there to make my mathematics work but a lot of people think there is another reason. Who is right? Look at physics and quantum theory. The best mind some people think there ever was said he just didn’t think it was right because God does not play dice with the universe. Man always thinks he has all of the answers but every day God shows him just how wrong he was.
I pray that you might just go over in a dark corner and ask God to help you find the faith that we all need. Lastly remember faith does not require we have all of the answers. We need to not have all of the answers to give us the motivation to seek…Then maybe…Sometimes, we will find they answers we seek.
Dave
 
I have two questions about evolution that I need answered, and my future in the Church depends on how they are answered.
  1. If we accept evolution as many Catholics do, then how is it possible for God to create through evolution when evolution is a “random” process? Artificial selection (the breeding of plants and animals) works because farmers and breeders control whom each animal mates with and thus with types of offspring are created. Natural selection is random, God does not choose mates for animals in nature or for humans, and God (at least I have never heard that he does) does not shuffle human genes during the sex/fertilization act to produce the different alelle frequencies of offspring. My problem is: if evolution is random…and God is not random…then how do the two mix exactly?
  2. If we accept that humans evolved through lower animals from the ultimate source of pond scum, then that means God simply waited for 14 billion years for us to arrive on the scene. This raises some interesting questions the main one I have is what does God intend to evolve from human beings? Once evolution is accepted it cannot remain a past event…what next? A secondary question as to the reality of original sin enters here as well. How can there be separation from God; i.e. original sin, if we are evolved animals?
I would appreciate any answers that address these two questions of mine because it seems to me that if evolution is true, then several things about God would have to be true, and the picture of God here seems to be a different one from the God I thought I knew in the Church.
Hello TEX,

I hope you are not being pressured by others to make a choice in your heart that you feel is wrong. May I write the verse in Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” from this source here it is at catholicdoors.com/bible/genesis.htm.

Evolution can only start after God chose to breathe life into man not before and evolution is not the creation of life. As for intelligent design … I believe in the intelligence of The Creator. So God is before evolution and that comes from the Bible. Even the ‘science’ of evolution can not start until life is there in the first place. An intelligent design may develop guided by the right will from and including the starting point. Fundamental intelligent design may be a bit limiting if it teaches we are complete as we are (and in truth I believe we are supposed to grow).

Maybe where the ‘science’ of evolution and the belief that God is the Master Designer take different paths is in that science teaches random mutation and the church teaches God’s Authority in all things including the direction that His creation takes.

I stepped back from the church for too long over some very petty things that showed the absolutely limited capacity of my ability to believe that God The Father could do with creation whatever He chooses … not what we choose. Given some of the things that I have seen people choose with the gift of free will, I can only say that it is very comforting to know that God is in charge.
 
Hello TEX,

I hope you are not being pressured by others to make a choice in your heart that you feel is wrong. May I write the verse in Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” from this source here it is at catholicdoors.com/bible/genesis.htm.

Evolution can only start after God chose to breathe life into man, not before and evolution is not the creation of life. As for intelligent design … I believe in the intelligence of The Creator. So God is before evolution and that comes from the Bible. Even the ‘science’ of evolution can not start until life is there in the first place. An intelligent design may develop guided by the right will from and including the starting point. Fundamental intelligent design may be a bit limiting if it teaches we are complete as we are (and in truth I believe we are supposed to grow).

Maybe where the ‘science’ of evolution and the belief that God is the Master Designer take different paths is in that science teaches random mutation and the church teaches God’s Authority in all things including the direction that His creation takes.

I stepped back from the church for too long over some very petty things that showed the absolutely limited capacity of my ability to believe that God The Father could do with creation whatever He chooses … not what we choose. Given some of the things that I have seen people choose with the gift of free will, I can only say that it is very comforting to know that God is in charge.
Hello I like. I am neither a Theologian, nor a Scientist, but my take on evolution is somewhat different from yours. I am afraid I don’t understand your quote 'evolution can only start after God breathed life into a hu/man". Why would there be need for evolution of humans after God’s life was breathed into them? God created the universe, the earth and water, the sky. sun and moon and life upon the earth. How, I have no idea. This life evolved and one of those forms, whether it evolved into humanoid form, or by God forming humans from the slime of the earth at a different time than other forms, I can’t prove. But at that time of human creation, or the development of the human form, God breathed eternal life/the soul into that form . I don’t see that this theory contradicts God’s creating humans in God’s image and likeness. It “seems” that science and religion separate if science says all life began and developed as a result of random selection. Whether one believes the scientific evidence of evolution, or not, evolution was not random. I see God’s hand in directing the process.

In other words, if the human “form”, not the soul, evolved to a certain point and then God breathed the breath of eternal life into that form, this theory does not contradict the Creationist theory, nor the Bible and perhaps also gives another path to think about regarding the question of Original sin and lower life forms. Sin exists, because humans have the intelligence to discern between right and wrong. Lower forms do not. As to the question of human life in the future, if we accept the idea that our human form we have now is as far as we go, that God breathed the soul into this form and the evolvement of the soul does not coincide with the physical evolvement, then we don’t really need to worry about humans developing into another form. Do we??? Why are you so concerned about evolution as no one knows with absolute certainty what happened anyway? Just asking. 😉 Peace
 
Hello I like. I am neither a Theologian, nor a Scientist, but my take on evolution is somewhat different from yours. I am afraid I don’t understand your quote 'evolution can only start after God breathed life into a hu/man". Why would there be need for evolution of humans after God’s life was breathed into them? God created the universe, the earth and water, the sky. sun and moon and life upon the earth. How, I have no idea. This life evolved and one of those forms, whether it evolved into humanoid form, or by God forming humans from the slime of the earth at a different time than other forms, I can’t prove. But at that time of human creation, or the development of the human form, God breathed eternal life/the soul into that form . I don’t see that this theory contradicts God’s creating humans in God’s image and likeness. It “seems” that science and religion separate if science says all life began and developed as a result of random selection. Whether one believes the scientific evidence of evolution, or not, evolution was not random. I see God’s hand in directing the process.

In other words, if the human “form”, not the soul, evolved to a certain point and then God breathed the breath of eternal life into that form, this theory does not contradict the Creationist theory, nor the Bible and perhaps also gives another path to think about regarding the question of Original sin and lower life forms. Sin exists, because humans have the intelligence to discern between right and wrong. Lower forms do not. As to the question of human life in the future, if we accept the idea that our human form we have now is as far as we go, that God breathed the soul into this form and the evolvement of the soul does not coincide with the physical evolvement, then we don’t really need to worry about humans developing into another form. Do we??? Why are you so concerned about evolution as no one knows with absolute certainty what happened anyway? Just asking. 😉 Peace
Thank you elt1956,

That is beautifully worded. Likewise I am neither theologian nor scientist (although I have developed an idea for an alternate theory of everything). The soul is of God and belongs to God we are in agreement on that. Science does not recognise the value of the soul in evolution even the existence of God in some cases. The church from what I read values both very highly indeed as it should. Even our soul needs spiritual exercise to grow but evolve something perfect, no. I do not question nor doubt perfection.

I believe physical change to be inevitable but that is just an opinion. The main concern is that TEX feels right about the change he is considering and what pressures or influences are guiding his decision. Perhaps the difference is that science presents analytically evolution as a soulless Godless exercise where the Church would consider God and the soul and God’s direction above and before all other things.
 
Thank you elt1956,

That is beautifully worded. Likewise I am neither theologian nor scientist (although I have developed an idea for an alternate theory of everything). The soul is of God and belongs to God we are in agreement on that. Science does not recognise the value of the soul in evolution even the existence of God in some cases. The church from what I read values both very highly indeed as it should. Even our soul needs spiritual exercise to grow but evolve something perfect, no. I do not question nor doubt perfection.

I believe physical change to be inevitable but that is just an opinion. The main concern is that TEX feels right about the change he is considering and what pressures or influences are guiding his decision. Perhaps the difference is that science presents analytically evolution as a soulless Godless exercise where the Church would consider God and the soul and God’s direction above and before all other things.
You are welcome, I like. I can’t really take all the credit for my perception. One day one of my wonderful “nun” teachers told us this way of thinking. Made sense to me. 😉 Peace.
 
I have two questions about evolution that I need answered, and my future in the Church depends on how they are answered.
  1. If we accept evolution as many Catholics do, then how is it possible for God to create through evolution when evolution is a “random” process? Artificial selection (the breeding of plants and animals) works because farmers and breeders control whom each animal mates with and thus with types of offspring are created. Natural selection is random, God does not choose mates for animals in nature or for humans, and God (at least I have never heard that he does) does not shuffle human genes during the sex/fertilization act to produce the different alelle frequencies of offspring. My problem is: if evolution is random…and God is not random…then how do the two mix exactly?

I think the question implies or presupposes that God, & we, are comparable beings. But we are not - for nothing is comparable to God.

**That being so, it maybe that what we perceive as random is not random to God. “We know in part” - & only “in part”; for God Alone sees all reality as it really is. **

**We are a bit like people who are looking at a picture - on a mosaic, say - from so close up that they can’t see the design as whole: so they see a small corner of it, but nothing more. What they see is real so far as it goes, but they see so little that they have a very poor idea of the full picture. Or if an ant were to write an account of the cieling of the Sistine Chapel, it would not be very like that by an art historian - yet the ant & the historian, despite their dissimilarities, would both be creatures; which would make them indescribably different from God, Who is Unique. **
  1. If we accept that humans evolved through lower animals from the ultimate source of pond scum, then that means God simply waited for 14 billion years for us to arrive on the scene.

T****hat too implies that God is limited by time, just we are; but there is no reason (apart from our own limitations) for us to think that God is limited by anything in His creation.

This raises some interesting questions the main one I have is what does God intend to evolve from human beings? Once evolution is accepted it cannot remain a past event…what next? A secondary question as to the reality of original sin enters here as well. How can there be separation from God; i.e. original sin, if we are evolved animals?

Our bodies have evolved, but not our souls; souls are immaterial spirits, so they can’t change, so cannot undergo the change that is decay - whereas our bodies, which are material & are composed of a variety of materials, can do both. Sin is in the soul; only secondarily is it in the body.

**As for what is intended by evolution: AFAICS, it is all, somehow or other, for the Glorification of Christ, since that is what the ****creation is for. Quite what the Coming of Christ & His Work of Redemption mean in detail for His creatures, I have no idea - the purpose is clearer than the details. Hope that helps though. **
I would appreciate any answers that address these two questions of mine because it seems to me that if evolution is true, then several things about God would have to be true, and the picture of God here seems to be a different one from the God I thought I knew in the Church.
 
Simple solution:

First, stay with the Catholic Church and pray to God for answers to your questions. Complain to Him humbly, He will hear you.

And once you have done that know that there is an alternative to believing in macro-evolution. It’s called creationism. Sadly it is protestants that are doing a much better job at upholding biblical truths about creation. Not that they are all in agreement over evolution/creation either. It’s just as bad a divide as in the Catholic Church. But it’s perfectly acceptable to be a Catholic and also a creationist. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Catholics and the entire Church in the past were. The Hebrews were, the early Jews were, Christ was, and so were His apostles. Currently evolution is one of the most hotly debated points within our Church and everywhere in the world, even amongst some secular scientists. But the Church has survived through times just as bad in the past.

All your questions can be answered by visiting a few Creationist sites.

answersingenesis.org/ is the best one. It’s protestant run but aside from references to statements by Luther and others as well as some off hand Sola scripture comments there’s nothing to be afraid of. Start with the Get Answers section or Video-on-Demand under their Media section. And you can even write directly to them with any questions through their contact links. They are aware that Catholics visit their site and are respectful. But I recommend going through their site first as practically all of your questions will be answered there by category.

Please consider all this very carefully. I am certain your faith will be renewed, in the Bible and also in the true Catholic Church; even if we are sometimes in times of conflict amongst ourselves. These days shall pass.
 
its been pointed out that the OP uses a strawman definition of evolution.

mutations in DNA are inevitable, completely random and caused by backround radiation (ionizing radiation from natural sources on the earth and from space) and mistakes in copying during cell division.

selection is not purpose oriented. any mutation that gives the creature any advantage over others in the current environment is “selected” because that creature has an increased chance of survival, mating, and passing on the new mutation to the next generation.

most mutations have no effect, many have bad effects, many are tradeoffs, for example, a genetic mutation that resulted in sickle cell disease is probably a response to malaria because the blood cells are not condusive to the malaria parasite.

the OP is better served by a thorough understanding of the mechanics of evolution, rather than indulging in the typical creationist strawman cartoon.
 
One of the nice things about science is you don’t have to believe anything. Belief is not required because there’s this thing called scientific evidence.
This is one of the silliest things I have ever read. You would be hard pressed to accept scientific evidence without belief in causality and the principle of non-contradiction.
 
so did the OP leaYAWNve the church? inquiring miYAWNnds want to know YAWN
 
  1. If we accept that humans evolved through lower animals from the ultimate source of pond scum, then that means God simply waited for 14 billion years for us to arrive on the scene.
Uh…the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Heck, the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Humans, as we are today, made our appearance 200,000 years ago.

The point is God created us and infused only us with a human soul. The first HUMAN (homo sapien) pair are the ones that broke from God in some way (symbolised as fruit in Genesis to explain the fall of Man) thus incurring original sin for all of us to carry. We are all created in God’s image, it may of taken some time to get there (God doesn’t live in our time btw) but we did all according to God’s plan.

There is no conflict with Faith and evolution.
 
Uh…the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Heck, the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Humans, as we are today, made our appearance 200,000 years ago.

The point is God created us and infused only us with a human soul. The first HUMAN (homo sapien) pair are the ones that broke from God in some way (symbolised as fruit in Genesis to explain the fall of Man) thus incurring original sin for all of us to carry. We are all created in God’s image, it may of taken some time to get there (God doesn’t live in our time btw) but we did all according to God’s plan.

There is no conflict with Faith and evolution.
Please share with us your explanation of the ontological leap.
 
Genetic inheritance is totally random. Millions of genetic combinations are possible every time a plant or animal reproduces. Many of those genetic combinations will not be beneficial to the organism and may even be harmful. But many other combinations will help the organism survive, perhaps even better than prior generations were able to.

Natural selection, on the other hand, is not random at all. Natural selection always favors those genetic combinations that produce the best characterisitic (adaptations) for survival in the native environment. Thus, future generations should naturally become stronger and more resilient than generations past.

"Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created in statu viae ‘in a state of journeying’ toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it" -Catechism of the Catholic Church

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
—Charles Darwin
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, 1859
 
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