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kenmiller
Guest
Merry Christmas all !!! we will agree to disagree on this issue
My only point is be cognizant of crossing the line into adoration - even my former Catholic Pastor told me that.
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My only point is be cognizant of crossing the line into adoration - even my former Catholic Pastor told me that.
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Steveabrous
Guest
Merry Christmas to you as well. I believe our point is that you are mistaken in you judgment of Catholics concerning Mary. I know of a Covent of nuns in Colorado several years ago who were excommunicated from the catholic church for actually worshiping Mary. Beyond that I know of no other, and I guarantee I know more catholics then you do. An ex- this, or that does not hold much wieght with me. If someone decides to leave a church for another they must justify thier decision by making accusations against their former church. I see ex protestants who have become catholic do this all the time and I don’t give what they say much weight either
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kenmiller
Guest
Well what is your argument when you concede even nuns have been problematic in regards to Mary, again my point is be cognizant and better education within the RCC about adoration conflict
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hazcompat
Guest
Definition-of Terms, According-to Orthodox and Roman Catholic Theology:
(Summa Theologica II-II-103-3)
‘Adoration’ = ‘Latria’ = ‘Worship’ and ‘Homage’ that is Rightly Offered to God alone.
‘Veneration’ = ‘Dulia’ = ‘Honor’ and ‘Recognition’ due to the Excellence-of a ‘Created’ Person, such as Mary, the Angels,
or the Saints. The Awarding-of an Olympic Medal for Excellence-in Sports, is an Example.
‘Devotion’ = A certain Ardor-of Affection in the Things-of God, and even without any Qualifying Prefix, it generally implies that this Ardor, is of a ‘Sensible’ Character. On the other hand, by the Term ‘Devotions’, in the Plural, or ‘Popular Devotions’, we commonly Understand those External Practices-of Piety, by which the Devotion-of the Faithful finds Life and Expression. The Efficacy of these Practices, in ‘Eliciting’ Feelings-of-Devotion, is Derived-from Four (4) Principle Sources:
by the Strong Appeal which they make to Man’s Emotional Instincts, or
by the Simplicity-of Form, which puts them within the Reach-of all, or
by the Stimulus-of Association, with many-Others, in the same Good Work, or
by their Derivation-from the Example-of Pious Persons, who are ‘Venerated’ (‘Dulia’) for their Holiness.
The differences between Worship and honor are so vast! It is impossible to accidently worship.
Peace
(Summa Theologica II-II-103-3)
‘Adoration’ = ‘Latria’ = ‘Worship’ and ‘Homage’ that is Rightly Offered to God alone.
‘Veneration’ = ‘Dulia’ = ‘Honor’ and ‘Recognition’ due to the Excellence-of a ‘Created’ Person, such as Mary, the Angels,
or the Saints. The Awarding-of an Olympic Medal for Excellence-in Sports, is an Example.
‘Devotion’ = A certain Ardor-of Affection in the Things-of God, and even without any Qualifying Prefix, it generally implies that this Ardor, is of a ‘Sensible’ Character. On the other hand, by the Term ‘Devotions’, in the Plural, or ‘Popular Devotions’, we commonly Understand those External Practices-of Piety, by which the Devotion-of the Faithful finds Life and Expression. The Efficacy of these Practices, in ‘Eliciting’ Feelings-of-Devotion, is Derived-from Four (4) Principle Sources:
by the Strong Appeal which they make to Man’s Emotional Instincts, or
by the Simplicity-of Form, which puts them within the Reach-of all, or
by the Stimulus-of Association, with many-Others, in the same Good Work, or
by their Derivation-from the Example-of Pious Persons, who are ‘Venerated’ (‘Dulia’) for their Holiness.
The differences between Worship and honor are so vast! It is impossible to accidently worship.
Peace
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felsguy
Guest
I agree with the sentiments expressed in the two posts above. Sure, the authentic teaching of the Church carefully distinguishes between adoration and veneration, especially in regard to Mary and the saints, but how many “folks in the pew” can make that distinction let alone even be aware of the term veneration. My guess, 30-40%, 50% max…and I’ve been involved in religious education for Catholics and Catholic wannabes (RCIA) for many years in several parishes with what would describe as fairly well educated (in the secular sense) parishioners.
And I have frequently run into sincere Catholic who with the best of intentions undoubtedly have “crossed the line” in the opinion of this insider.
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robwar
Guest
So your views about what the Catholic Church believes are coming from some ex-Catholic? My question to you is since you seem to find what the Catholic Church teaches on a number of key things, why are you here? To cause arguments or to actually and accurately learn what the Catholic church really believes and teaches not what some ex-Catholic told you.
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kenmiller
Guest
I am just like many other Catholics on here exchanging their experiences - gained from experiences in reading , catechism , discussions , Pastors
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robwar
Guest
You seem to constantly attack Catholic teaching. That is not an exchange of ideas. It is one thing to have questions like Op has about Mary, it is another to attack as if your view of different Bible verses are the accurate ones and against Catholic teaching. I think you need to honestly answer for yourself why you are participating with an ex-Catholic pastor to feed your ideas.
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Elizium23
Guest
When I was eight years old, I had been singing the Lord’s Prayer for years in the liturgy. At eight years of age, I was made to memorize the Nicene Creed because I was soon to receive my First Holy Communion and it was expected that Catholics such as myself should know what we believe and be able to profess it in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass each Sunday.
And I went to a liberal Catholic school where I never learned the importance of Confession.
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kenmiller
Guest
He is not ex catholic , he is my ex - pastor, Since my family moved -
Plus not attacking merely sharing experiences like others ,
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boomerang
Guest
Yes, I totally agree. Merry Christmas.
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kenmiller
Guest
Merry Christmas !Yes, I totally agree. Merry Christmas.
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felsguy
Guest
Rob, I wonder if you might be overreacting a bit here, rare for you. I too thought the OP’s early posts were a bit snarky but it strikes me that his tone has ameliorated considerably and he does have some valid points about the overzealousness of some Catholics in their devotion to Mary IMHO.
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Steveabrous
Guest
Here is where I am. Originally you said your eight year old daughter went through first communion and ONLY learned the hail Mary. Many on this forum pointed out that this does not sound right. Then you said you were getting your information from your pastor who and I quote “is an ex-catholic”.
Now you are say, and I quote: “He is not ex catholic , he is my ex - pastor”. are you making this stuff up about your daughter and your ex-catholic, not ex-catholic pastor to give your accusations credibility. Of course I may be wrong. But it sure sounds like it to me.
Now you say you are a Catholic. Why don’t you have Catholic as your religion on your profile.
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felsguy
Guest
Correction: I was referring here to the early posts of the person Robwar was responding to and not to the actual OP who started this threadRob, I wonder if you might be overreacting a bit here, rare for you. I too thought the OP’s early posts were a bit snarky but it strikes me that his tone has ameliorated considerably and he does have some valid points about the overzealousness of some Catholics in their devotion to Mary IMHO.
.
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Thomas_White
Guest
Mary was the earthly mother of the historic Jesus, and He is the Son of God. He was born from the womb of Mary. And though He was true God, He was also a true man. He experienced a gruesome physical death during his crucifixion, as a man, and Mary, his Mother, must have suffered greatly too. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the Son of God the Father. Mary, as a mother, consequently has a very special and unique relationship with Christ, her earthly son born of her womb, but she is not considered a diety. She has the title of Queen of Heaven. In their prayers, Catholics ask Mary to intercede with Christ for many reasons. The Catholics I have known do not view this as at all irregular or as any form of divine worship. It concerns her unique relationship with Christ.
Why is the Pope a stumbling block for you? The Pope is the successor of Peter, the rock upon which Christ said he would build his Church. It might be helpful if you would explain why the Pope is a stumbling block for you.
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jacobthompson16
Guest
I just have a lot of stumbling blocks mainly Mary and the Pope. I was raised protestant so I learned many anti-catholic teachings.
such as:
The Petra/Petros dilemma
The Pope claims to be God!
The catholic Mary is actually ishtar the godess
Idol worship
Mary worship
The catholic blond hair blue eyed Jesus is actually satan
Just a whole bunch of junk the Protestant spew out and Im just trying to find out the truth.
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boomerang
Guest
- No dilemma here. Jesus called him Kepha, which means “Rock” no matter how you slice it.
- Never happened.
- Mary is the mother of Jesus. That’s it.
- Nope. Heresy.
- Nope. Heresy.
- ???
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Steveabrous
Guest
Petra/Petros dilema: in scripture were Jesus says “you are Peter (petros) and on this rock (Petra) I will build my church.”
As a previous poster pointed out Jesus spoke Aramaic not greek and we know the name Jesus gave Peter “Kephas” which mean Rock, not small rock or big rock, just rock. So Jesus would have said “You are Kephas and on this Kephas I will build my church.”
The argument says that Petros (used for Peter) means small pebble and Petra (used for rock) means massive stone. There for they are 2 seperate rocks and Peter is not the rock the church is built on.
This is not true. in the Attic Greek (which would be the equivalent of old english) Petros meant small pebble, but in the Koine Greek (which is what the New testament was written in since it was the current form of Greek then) it could mean any rock big or small. The only reason that there are 2 words used for rock in the text is because the main word for rock, Petra, is a feminine noun and could not be used when refering to Peter directly. It would have been like saying “You are Patricia…” So a suitable masculine form of the word rock had to be used. And since “Petros” is masculine and could be used in place of Petra without changing the meaning it was used.
If the author of Matthew wanted to say Peter is small pebble he could have used the word “Lithos” which was available, Masculine, and means small pebble. But he didn’t.
The Pope claims to be God. no he doesn’t. He is the guy Jesus left in charge until he returns.
The catholic Mary is actually ishtar the godess. Ridiculous
Mary worship no we do not
Idol worship nope!
Mary worship Nope
The catholic blond hair blue eyed Jesus is actually satan. Ridiculous
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Jeanne_S
Guest
We love ,honor and venerate Mary as the Mother of Our Lord and. Savior,Jesus Christ.
We also love and honor her as our spiritual mother.I don’t know about you,but I feel very blessed to have her!
Having said that,I really don’t understand why Protestants are so afraid of loving our Mama Mary,Christ was generous enough to share her will all of mankind.
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