U.S. Bishops Struggle to Follow Lead of Francis [NYT]

[kozlosap]

I am very disillusioned with Pope Francis, to be honest, especially after the splendid pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI. I don’t believe the Church will end up accomplishing anything Pope Francis currently envisions and while I don’t mean any disrespect, I also don’t believe he has his priorities straight. As far as I’m concerned, he’s the successor of Peter, Vicar of Christ, and the seat of unity and communion. That’s it.

And all those things you mention: pro-life, evangelization, catechesis, service, etc? All those efforts will be for naught until our worship is revitalized. We may be successful here and there, but as a whole, we won’t succeed until we get our liturgical worship back on track. I’m not talking about a wholesale rollback to 1962. But even bringing the same level of attention and sacredness to the Ordinary Form as they do with the Extraordinary Form would be a great help.

Pope Emeritus Benedict is a brilliant theologian and I feel was very misunderstood during his pontificate, but he did not have the experience as a pastor that Francis possesses and is a Center point of his papacy. Francis seems to innately understand that in order to better serve the Body of Christ then the Church must take small steps to move forward. Yes, I am a natural born progressive, but I do understand the resistance of others to accept even the most minute change in dogma. Is Holy Mother Church going to fall into the abyss because it becomes free and easy to obtain an annulment???

 

[ialsop]

The Ordinariate Use is a beautiful form of the Roman Rite recently approved by Rome for the Ordinariates established by Pope Benedict XVI for former Anglicans. It’s exclusively in Tudor English and contains elements of the Book of Common Prayer, appropriately selected and corrected where needed (the Summary of the Law, the Collect for Purity, the Comfortable Words, the Anglican Penitential Rite, the Intercessions, the Prayer of Humble Access and the Thanksgiving). It also retains elements of the traditional Roman Mass, at least as options, including the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the older Offertory prayers, and the Last Gospel. I’m blessed to live in the Calgary area, where the first Ordinariate parish in Canada was established.

Oh, fascinating!!!’

Sounds cool. Does it have the Eucharistic celebrations?

 

[porthos11]

Oh, fascinating!!!’

Sounds cool. Does it have the Eucharistic celebrations?

What do you mean?

 

[phil19034]

true! I agree! But, before that can be done on a universal scale, we must EVANGELIZE people and revitalize the worship on a personal level. Then sacredness can return to desolate parishes, dioceses, and sacredness will fill the universal church. But we must evangelize to people, mainly other Catholics, and help them with the Mass, its reverence, and its deep deep meaning and power.

Pope Francis’ priorities are evangelization. You cannot properly Catechize people until they are properly & fully evangelized.

One of the problems the Church has is catechizing people & children who are not evangelized.

In the book Forming Intentional Disciples there are some alarming statistics discussed:

· Only 30 percent of Americans who were raised Catholic are still practicing (p. 24).
· 10 percent of all adults in America are ex-Catholics (p. 25).
· 79 percent of those who have dropped the name “Catholic” and claim no religious affiliation of any kind, have done so by age 23 (p. 33).
· In the early 21st century, among Americans raised Catholic, becoming Protestant is the best guarantee of stable church attendance as an adult (p. 35).
· The majority of adult Catholics are not even certain that a personal relationship with God is possible (p. 46)
· Mass attendance is always lower than, and goes up and down with, the percentage of those who are certain that it is possible to have a personal relationship with God (p. 44).

The book points out five steps to evangelizing and catechizing (and the catechizing is the last step):

Here they are (p.129-130):

1. Initial trust: Someone makes a positive association with Jesus, the Church, or a Christian believer.

1. Spiritual curiosity: A person is intrigued by or desiring to know more about Jesus, his life, his teachings or some aspect of the Christian faith.

1. Spiritual openness: A person acknowledges to himself or herself and to God that he or she is open to the possibility of personal and spiritual change.

1. Spiritual seeking: The person moves from being essentially passive to actively seeking to know the God who is calling him or her.

1. Intentional discipleship: This is the decision to ‘drop one’s nets.’ To make a conscious commitment to follow Jesus in the midst of his Church as an obedient disciple and to reorder one’s life accordingly.

focus.org/blog/posts/forming-intentional-disciples.html

Many current Catholics, even the ones who attend Church every week and even participate in Parish Committees are only around stage 2 or 3! People are not going to understand many of the Church’s teachings (especially the ones that go against the mainstream society) if they are not at stages 4 and/or 5.

I believe that Pope Francis understands this and that’s why he wants to focus on Evangelization.

 

[ialsop]

What do you mean?

I mean is the bread and wine present, consecrated, and distributed?

 

[ialsop]

Pope Francis’ priorities are evangelization. You cannot properly Catechize people until they are properly & fully evangelized.

One of the problems the Church has is catechizing people & children who are not evangelized.

In the book Forming Intentional Disciples there are some alarming statistics discussed:
The book points out five steps to evangelizing and catechizing (and the catechizing is the last step):

focus.org/blog/posts/forming-intentional-disciples.html

Many current Catholics, even the ones who attend Church every week and even participate in Parish Committees are only around stage 2 or 3! People are not going to understand many of the Church’s teachings (especially the ones that go against the mainstream society) if they are not at stages 4 and/or 5.

I believe that Pope Francis understands this and that’s why he wants to focus on Evangelization.

And thats one thing I appreciate about Francis.

However, my error is that I skip the first few steps, but there is the error of ignoring the last few. Not saying Francis is in error, but that is a danger. But I do like Fancis’s take on evangelization.

Just to stay balances, two other good things he does is warn us of the devil and return us to authentic catholic economics.

And that bold one is important.

 

[porthos11]

I mean is the bread and wine present, consecrated, and distributed?

Yes, it’s a full-fledged Roman Rite Mass with Anglican elements. In fact, its primary Eucharistic Prayer is the Roman Canon, translated into Tudor English.

 

[Corki]

I mean is the bread and wine present, consecrated, and distributed?

Of course. It’s just a different “use” (sacramentary) than the ordinary form of the Mass. The Consecration is a integral part of ALL Catholic Masses.

 

[ialsop]

Yes, it’s a full-fledged Roman Rite Mass with Anglican elements.

Wow. Fascinating! Sounds very interesting! What are the results of Anglican influence? Ive never been Anglican so I dont know.

 

[johnlal]

Nov 11, '14 10:00 pm

static01.nyt.com/images/2014/11/12/us/12BISHOPS2/12BISHOPS2-thumbStandard.jpgAmerican bishops say they can feel change rattling the church hierarchy even if they do not yet understand where the pope is leading them.

Full article…

I don’t know how they can misunderstand the Pope. He has been clear in his message. We’re no longer going to hate homosexuals. We’re no longer going to engage in the culture wars. We’re no longer going to inject the church into American politics. You had your conservative popes. Let us have our liberal pope. Infallibility and all that.

 

[porthos11]

Wow. Fascinating! Sounds very interesting! What are the results of Anglican influence? Ive never been Anglican so I dont know.

The most obvious will be the language. It uses the thees, thous, vouchsafes, and all that.

And then of course, the prayers. It’s customary for Anglican services to include the Collect for Purity from the old Sarum rite (“Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open…”), the Summary of the Law (“Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ saith, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God…”), the Prayer of Humble Access (“We do not presume to come to this thy table…”)

They greatly add to the beauty of the Mass.

And in fairness to the Pope, the final form of this Mass was approved under Pope Francis.

 

[ialsop]

I don’t know how they can misunderstand the Pope. He has been clear in his message. We’re no longer going to hate homosexuals. We’re no longer going to engage in the culture wars. We’re no longer going to inject the church into American politics. You had your conservative popes. Let us have our liberal pope. Infallibility and all that.

Ah. Well Francis ALSO said to beware of the devil, beware of sin, go to confession, to be saved, evangelize…hmm…do you do all that? Are you aware of and battling the devil? Evangelizing to save souls from hell? Going to confession? Hmm?

 

[johnlal]

Ah. Well Francis ALSO said to beware of the devil, beware of sin, go to confession, to be saved, evangelize…hmm…do you do all that? Are you aware of and battling the devil? Evangelizing to save souls from hell? Going to confession? Hmm?

I submit myself to your judgment, as God wants all men to judge their fellow man. Knowing everything you know about me, what is your verdict, your honor?

 

[ialsop]

I submit myself to your judgment, as God wants all men to judge their fellow man. Knowing everything you know about me, what is your verdict, your honor?

Verdict? What is this a courtroom? I cant judge your soul. I just am trying to get you to understand Francis’s message before you go praising it. I LIKE the popes message, but based on what you said earlier, you dont understand it, you are just saying what the secular media say.

I am not trying to judge your soul, i am just wondering if you really do try to live what Francis says…

 

[ialsop]

The most obvious will be the language. It uses the thees, thous, vouchsafes, and all that.

And then of course, the prayers. It’s customary for Anglican services to include the Collect for Purity from the old Sarum rite (“Almighty God, unto whom all hearts be open…”), the Summary of the Law (“Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ saith, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God…”), the Prayer of Humble Access (“We do not presume to come to this thy table…”)

They greatly add to the beauty of the Mass.

And in fairness to the Pope, the final form of this Mass was approved under Pope Francis.

Very cool. Ill have to attend it sometime.

 

[johnlal]

Verdict? What is this a courtroom? I cant judge your soul. I just am trying to get you to understand Francis’s message before you go praising it. I LIKE the popes message, but based on what you said earlier, you dont understand it, you are just saying what the secular media say.

I am not trying to judge your soul, i am just wondering if you really do try to live what Francis says…

OK. Right back at ya.

 

[ialsop]

OK. Right back at ya.

Yeah, i admit. I DO have areas I could better live up to his message. Kindness, humility, that part.

I likes his synod conclusion, which condemned the “liberal, modernist” error AND the “elitist, judgmental” error. I guess were I am errored, its just odd because most of the world errors one way, I error just as much but the opposite way,

 

[johnlal]

Yeah, i admit. I DO have areas I could better live up to his message. Kindness, humility, that part.

I likes his synod conclusion, which condemned the “liberal, modernist” error AND the “elitist, judgmental” error. I guess were I am errored, its just odd because most of the world errors one way, I error just as much but the opposite way,

I am flawed as well (as you have seen). But keep an open mind. What this man is doing is extraordinary. It is a monumental change in the Church. It will be for the better.

 

[GEddie]

Pope Emeritus Benedict is a brilliant theologian and I feel was very misunderstood during his pontifthe icate, but he did not have the experience as a pastor that Francis possesses and is a Center point of his papacy. Francis seems to innately understand that in order to better serve the Body of Christ then the Church must take small steps to move forward. Yes, I am a natural born progressive, but I do understand the resistance of others to accept even the most minute change in dogma. Is Holy Mother Church going to fall into the abyss because it becomes free and easy to obtain an annulment???

Not the abyss, but arguably a long way downhill.

Liberalization of annulment would, IMNAAHO, send the world a message that the “musical remarriage” game of the general society was now in essence acceptable to the Holy Church. The damage to Church teaching on marriage and chastity would take generations to repair.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know how they can misunderstand the Pope. He has been clear in his message. We’re no longer going to hate homosexuals. We’re no longer going to engage in the culture wars. We’re no longer going to inject the church into American politics. You had your conservative popes. Let us have our liberal pope. Infallibility and all that.

Dream on.