U.S. Bishops Struggle to Follow Lead of Francis [NYT]

[ialsop]

Not the abyss, but arguably a long way downhill.

Liberalization of annulment would, IMNAAHO, send the world a message that the “musical remarriage” game of the general society was now in essence acceptable to the Holy Church. The damage to Church teaching on marriage and chastity would take generations to repair.

ICXC NIKA.

Exactly. Annulments should be hard to get so that people THINK seriously before marriage…

 

[ialsop]

I am flawed as well (as you have seen). But keep an open mind. What this man is doing is extraordinary. It is a monumental change in the Church. It will be for the better.

True. I like all his social advice, for humility, decentralization of government power, reform of economics, and end to corruption in the Church. I love it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Here’s a quote by a rabbi that I think sums up how Pope Francis is thinking:

Fighting evil is a very noble activity when it must be done. But it is not our mission in life. Our job is to bring in more light.

• Tzvi Freeman

As to what’s being more greatly emphasized in the Church under Pope Francis, I think that can be summed up with the two commandments of Christ (see my signature). These two commandments are the mission of all Christians.

LOVE!

 

[Book_Worm]

Nothing, absolutely nothing: the poor, evangelization, education will ever have their needs addressed unless something is done to restore the sacred in our liturgy.

It may not be obvious, but above all—even helping the poor—the liturgy, especially the Mass, is priority. Until we revitalize our sacred worship, all other efforts will be in vain.

How does one revitalize the Mass?

How could the Consecration be improved?

I do not understand.

 

[ialsop]

How does one revitalize the Mass?

How could the Consecration be improved?

I do not understand.

The consecration cannot be improved, but what surrounds it can be. We need, whether EF or OF( I attend OF) an atmosphere of reverence, purity, holiness, and complete respect for Jesus).

 

[porthos11]

How does one revitalize the Mass?

How could the Consecration be improved?

I do not understand.

No offense, but this is the kind of catechetical impoverishment that surrounds our liturgy and is the root of our problems. A minimalist approach that essentially reduces the Mass to just the Consecration.

We can start by for one thing, drawing a sharp distinction between the sacred and the profane. When you step into a church, does your gut instinctively tell you you are in a Catholic church? Or does it differ less from the auditorium in the city?

As you walk into a Mass in progress, when you begin to hear the strains of the music, can you tell, before you discern the words, that the music is indeed sacred? Or are you unable to distinguish between that and the garbage you hear on the radio?

Does your priest conduct himself in a manner that clearly professes that he is Alter Christus? Or does he act and walk and talk and sit just like your Joe Blow on the street?

 

[ProVobis]

Pope Emeritus Benedict is a brilliant theologian and I feel was very misunderstood during his pontificate, but he did not have the experience as a pastor that Francis possesses and is a Center point of his papacy. Francis seems to innately understand that in order to better serve the Body of Christ then the Church must take small steps to move forward.

Wasn’t the spirit of Vatican II pastoral enough?

 

[phil19034]

Exactly. Annulments should be hard to get so that people THINK seriously before marriage…

I don’t think anyone is proposing changing the requirements for getting an annulment. Just using 21st century technology to move the process along. In many dioceses around the world, they are using 19th century technology.

Also, I personally see no reason why dioceses within each province and/or national bishop conference can not share back office resources.

Also the witness interview process could be improved. For example, let’s assume that some one applied for an annulment in New York City, but the witnesses live in San Francisco and Tokyo. Why can’t the local dioceses interview the witnesses and relay the results to New York? Or even better, the local tribunal conferences in the New York Tribunal via Skype or WebEx?

 

[ProVobis]

Wow. Fascinating! Sounds very interesting! What are the results of Anglican influence? Ive never been Anglican so I dont know.

These are former Anglican clerics (bishops and priests) who have been ordained into the Catholic Church. So their liturgy is legit. As I understand it, they turned their parishes and property over to what they call a personal prelature to the Pope. Not all of them converted however, as many are female ministers and others who chose not to convert.

We don’t have too many of these Ordinariates in the Midwest, none in Illinois, so I can’t tell you more.

 

[phil19034]

These are former Anglican clerics (bishops and priests) who have been ordained into the Catholic Church. So their liturgy is legit. As I understand it, they turned their parishes and property over to what they call a personal prelature to the Pope. Not all of them converted however, as many are female ministers and others who chose not to convert.

We don’t have too many of these Ordinariates in the Midwest, none in Illinois, so I can’t tell you more.

This is not necessarily true. Some were able to bring their whole parish along, with church building, etc. Others were not. The Ordinariate in Philadelphia lost a law suit against the Episcopal Church and have to give back the Church building. The court said that while the building was owned by the parish, there was a explicit trust between the Episcopal Diocese and the parish that the building was an Episcopal Church. I don’t know if this is because the church has a cemetery, because thousands of parishenors donated over the years, etc? But that’s what the courts in PA determined.

 

[porthos11]

This is not necessarily true. Some were able to bring their whole parish along, with church building, etc. Others were not. The Ordinariate in Philadelphia lost a law suit against the Episcopal Church and have to give back the Church building. The court said that while the building was owned by the parish, there was a explicit trust between the Episcopal Diocese and the parish that the building was an Episcopal Church. I don’t know if this is because the church has a cemetery, because thousands of parishenors donated over the years, etc? But that’s what the courts in PA determined.

The case in Calgary was much more peaceful and was punctuated with much good will between the Ordinariate and the Anglican diocese. The new Catholic parish leased the Anglican building from the Anglican diocese for five years, after which they have the option of purchasing it. They are now raising the funds to ensure that this happens in 2016.

 

[ialsop]

I don’t think anyone is proposing changing the requirements for getting an annulment. Just using 21st century technology to move the process along. In many dioceses around the world, they are using 19th century technology.

Also, I personally see no reason why dioceses within each province and/or national bishop conference can not share back office resources.

Also the witness interview process could be improved. For example, let’s assume that some one applied for an annulment in New York City, but the witnesses live in San Francisco and Tokyo. Why can’t the local dioceses interview the witnesses and relay the results to New York? Or even better, the local tribunal conferences in the New York Tribunal via Skype or WebEx?

Well, true, I highly agree.

 

[ProVobis]

This is not necessarily true. Some were able to bring their whole parish along, with church building, etc. Others were not. The Ordinariate in Philadelphia lost a law suit against the Episcopal Church and have to give back the Church building. The court said that while the building was owned by the parish, there was a explicit trust between the Episcopal Diocese and the parish that the building was an Episcopal Church. I don’t know if this is because the church has a cemetery, because thousands of parishenors donated over the years, etc? But that’s what the courts in PA determined.

I was afraid this would happen but it does make sense. The Episcopal Church does own some of the buildings, cemeteries, etc. I suspect this might happen in some UK (Church of England) parishes as well.

Thanks for the info.

 

[unafraid]

Well, nothing much has really changed, at this point, except as a matter of tone. At least we’re not living through another Arian controversy!

Interesting, and puzzling, reference to Arianism in this context. However, were St. Athanasius alive today he would embrace Pope Francis as his brother in Christ, and would encourage him onward to “fight the good fight”.

Also, Cardinal Dolan referred to Pope Francis’ “radiant spirit” in his remarks at the recent Bishop’s Conference. He did not seem in the least to be "struggling to follow the lead " of the Holy Father. On the contrary, he appeared humbled to have such a privilege.

The influence of Pope Francis should not be feared, rather, it should be treasured, and embraced.

 

[porthos11]

Interesting, and puzzling, reference to Arianism in this context. However, were St. Athanasius alive today he would embrace Pope Francis as his brother in Christ, and would encourage him onward to “fight the good fight”.

Also, Cardinal Dolan referred to Pope Francis’ “radiant spirit” in his remarks at the recent Bishop’s Conference. He did not seem in the least to be "struggling to follow the lead " of the Holy Father. On the contrary, he appeared humbled to have such a privilege.

The influence of Pope Francis should not be feared, rather, it should be treasured, and embraced.

I think the “Arian” comment was more of the fact that at least, we’re not dealing with any heresy. Pope Francis is no heretic, but his style is, to say the least, unsettling to some.

 

[FAB]

Nov 11, '14 10:00 pm

static01.nyt.com/images/2014/11/12/us/12BISHOPS2/12BISHOPS2-thumbStandard.jpgAmerican bishops say they can feel change rattling the church hierarchy even if they do not yet understand where the pope is leading them.

Full article…

I would first consider the source. The New York Times who will be the last people to understand the pope and his message.
They want to find dissention within our shepherds, it make a better story. Also I saw in the story were they are saying that the Synod was contentious. From bishops and cardinals that attended, they are surprised by those reports. There remarks are they must have been another synod that they missed because the one they were at wasn’t the one reported on by the press.

Deacon Frank

 

[FollowChrist34]

I would first consider the source. The New York Times who will be the last people to understand the pope and his message.
They want to find dissention within our shepherds, it make a better story. Also I saw in the story were they are saying that the Synod was contentious. From bishops and cardinals that attended, they are surprised by those reports. There remarks are they must have been another synod that they missed because the one they were at wasn’t the one reported on by the press.

Deacon Frank

Yes, agreed, the New York Times (Ross Douthart aside) would be just about my last trusted source on the Pope and/or the USCCB. I didn’t even read through the article because of the spin. Perhaps it’s best just to reserve judgment at this point. I’ll make up my mind on what’s going on in 2016. I am fine with that.

 

[SurfingTheTiber]

I mean we SHOULD be loving and accepting, but we GET THAT MESSAGE FROM THE CULTURE already, we need from the Church what the culture DOESNT offer.l

I think this is a pretty insightful observation. We hear about “doing good” or what as Catholics we call the corporal acts of mercy from many areas of our culture. What the culture does not give us is the proclamation of our need to turn towards Christ (repentence) and the sacraments that help us in this turning, especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation. This in no way diminishes engaging in the corporal acts of mercy. Rather it gives that engagement both focus and power (see Acts and the Epistles).

 

[Rin]

Nothing, absolutely nothing: the poor, evangelization, education will ever have their needs addressed unless something is done to restore the sacred in our liturgy.

It may not be obvious, but above all—even helping the poor—the liturgy, especially the Mass, is priority. Until we revitalize our sacred worship, all other efforts will be in vain.

FWIW, it was Vatican II’s top priority. And what we have is nothing resembling what it called for.

to both of you.

That said, let’s be careful not to fall into the same false dichotomies as those who are against liturgical tradition, just with the opposite outcome. The Church can multitask.

But having made that qualification, I agree. Lest the sacred, and mystery, is restored in our liturgy, no amount of effort to evangelize or anything else will be fruitful. If we speak of Holy Mass as sacred, but act as if it were not, then newcomers will remember our acts, not our words. I was fortunate to first seek a parish where the liturgy was indeed reverent and solemn (on pure coincidence, might I add). I had already read much theology and other literature, and found I agreed with it - but it was the liturgy which cemented my conversion. It is also what makes me stay Catholic, even in times of difficulty.

Reverence, sense of the sacred and sense of mystery in worship should be our top priority, together with our calling to feed the hungry and heal the sick. They are our greatest means of evangelization, the biggest witnesses of our faith, and not least our most important callings. One cannot exist without the other.

 

[JimG]

to both of you.

That said, let’s be careful not to fall into the same false dichotomies as those who are against liturgical tradition, just with the opposite outcome. The Church can multitask.

But having made that qualification, I agree. Lest the sacred, and mystery, is restored in our liturgy, no amount of effort to evangelize or anything else will be fruitful. If we speak of Holy Mass as sacred, but act as if it were not, then newcomers will remember our acts, not our words. I was fortunate to first seek a parish where the liturgy was indeed reverent and solemn (on pure coincidence, might I add). I had already read much theology and other literature, and found I agreed with it - but it was the liturgy which cemented my conversion. It is also what makes me stay Catholic, even in times of difficulty.

Reverence, sense of the sacred and sense of mystery in worship should be our top priority, together with our calling to feed the hungry and heal the sick. They are our greatest means of evangelization, the biggest witnesses of our faith, and not least our most important callings. One cannot exist without the other.

I am reminded of a comment once made to me by a Baptist coworker who had attended a Catholic Mass–the old one! She said, “Well, at least with Catholics, when you walk in the church, you know you’re in church!” What she meant was that, when she approached the church, there were people talking outside, and there were people talking in the vestibule. But the instant she entered the door to enter the actual church, there was sudden silence and a total atmosphere of reverence, with people kneeling and praying.

I never hear comments like that anymore.

Another instructive exercise is just to read through the English translation of the old Roman Canon. The language is exalted, reverent, supplicative, worshipful. It is the language of one addressing his Creator in corporate worship.