U.S. bishops: Vote your conscience Catholics urged to weigh stands on all issues

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**[Catholics urged to weigh stands on all issues](http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1217390961251120.xml&coll=5)**
LAWRENCE – If you think you know how the Catholic Church in the United States wants its members to vote in the presidential election this year, think again.
Single-issue voting, like simply choosing the anti-abortion candidate, is out.

Here’s a press release from Most Rev. John M. Smith
Bishop of Trenton:

Monday, August 04, 2008
The article in the 7/30 issue of The Times regarding the Diocese of Trenton’s presentation on the statement, “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship”, failed to provide readers with an adequate understanding of this program and misrepresented the very spirit of the document.

dioceseoftrenton.org/diocese/pressreleases_detail.asp?prid=1876

Forgive me if this has already been posted and I missed it. 🙂
 
Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions hold dear. It degrades everyone involved – policy-makers, perpetrators and victims. It contradicts our nation’s most cherished ideals. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable.

“Nothing less is at stake in the torture abuse crisis than the soul of our nation. What does it signify if torture is condemned in word but allowed in deed? Let America abolish torture now – without exceptions,” the statement reads.
Catholic Bishop’s statement on torture:
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=21882

I would say abotion, in all forms, but especially under the form of partial birth abortion, is one of the most criminal forms of torture
ever invented by man against the most helpless of human beings.

Speak out, denounce abortion and denounce the party that has supported this barbarism.Vote LIFE.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
I would say abotion, in all forms, but especially under the form of partial birth abortion, is one of the most criminal forms of torture
ever invented by man against the most helpless of human beings.
Why not have criminal penalties, such as long jail terms, for those women who are using abortifacient birth control pills or who have procured an abortion?
 
Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions hold dear. It degrades everyone involved – policy-makers, perpetrators and victims. It contradicts our nation’s most cherished ideals. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable.
then why did the Pope approve of the use of torture to extract confessions:

Soon after the Inquisition was instituted, Pope Innocent IV, influenced by the revival of Roman law, issued a decree (in 1252) that called on civil magistrates to have persons accused of heresy tortured to elicit confessions against themselves and others; this was probably the earliest instance of ecclesiastical sanction of this mode of examination.
Microsoft Encarta 98 Encyclopedia, torture, Copyright © 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation
 
Why not have criminal penalties, such as long jail terms, for those women who are using abortifacient birth control pills or who have procured an abortion?
You can’t do that–
Because these women are victims of a culture and medical community that has lied to them from an early age ( middle school age) so they are acting according to medical advice they received. Why criminalize them? That would be harsh and it would again be men victimizing women and not taking responsibility for their end of the problem.

According to janet Smith’s tape at the time they develped birth control for women that tested some for men. They found birth control had serious possible side effects for women and yet went ahead with it. They found birth control on men had minor side effects and nixed it…

Also they never medically tried or tested the effects of using birth control on girls who were going through puberty and yet they have encourgaed them to use it. The long term effects have inculded problem becoming pregnant later on. As well as other problems associated with having sex outside of marriage. Sex outside of marriage has been normalized by our society…these young women are acting under social, peer influences and are not at fault.

Fault the medical community, drug companies…have some large class action suits just like they did with smoking and tobacco…that would end this rubbish.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
then why did the Pope approve of the use of torture to extract confessions:

Soon after the Inquisition was instituted, Pope Innocent IV, influenced by the revival of Roman law, issued a decree (in 1252) that called on civil magistrates to have persons accused of heresy tortured to elicit confessions against themselves and others; this was probably the earliest instance of ecclesiastical sanction of this mode of examination.
Microsoft Encarta 98 Encyclopedia, torture, Copyright © 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation
The harsh courts of the inquisition were the secular courts not the religious tribunals, according to the carmelite priest in our tThird order. People wnated to be tried by the church not the politicians who abused their power…

the Catholic encyclopedi has a good artcle on theis and shows that the principal that has guided the church in terms of religious belief has been tat religion cannot be forced on others. And that violence should ne be used to bring about justice;

"Lactantius was yet smarting under the scourge of bloody persecutions, when he wrote this Divine Institutes in A.D. 308. Naturally, therefore, he stood for the most absolute freedom of religion. He writes:

Religion being a matter of the will, it cannot be forced on anyone; in this matter it is better to employ words than blows [verbis melius quam verberibus res agenda est]. Of what use is cruelty? What has the rack to do with piety? Surely there is no connection between truth and violence, between justice and cruelty . . . . It is true that nothing is so important as religion, and one must defend it at any cost [summâ vi] . . . It is true that it must be protected, but by dying for it, not by killing others; by long-suffering, not by violence; by faith, not by crime. If you attempt to defend religion with bloodshed and torture, what you do is not defense, but desecration and insult. For nothing is so intrinsically a matter of free will as religion. (Divine Institutes V:20)

The Christian teachers of the first three centuries insisted, as was natural for them, on complete religious liberty; furthermore, they not only urged the principle that religion could not be forced on others – a principle always adhered to by the Church in her dealings with the unbaptised – but, when comparing the Mosaic Law and the Christian religion, they taught that the latter was content with a spiritual punishment of heretics (i.e. with excommunication), while Judaism necessarily proceeded against its dissidents with torture and death."

newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

I am more afraid of secular inquistions taking place right now. The leftist political agenda is highly emotional and uses violent language against those who disagree with it. The hate crime of Myers against the Eucharist recently shows how much they hate religion in general and want to rif our society of its influence.
Anyone who has contacts with the educational community knows how much propaganda is used in schools to push certain anti-Christian/Catholic views on young people.

Simply because there was a black aspect to the inquistion which can be associated with a desire at that time to protect orthodoxy does not mean that the secular society we live in cannot and will not turn to the same thing to protect THEIR ORTHODOXY (secular progresive religion) of which abortion is a part.

Your argument is not related to the circumstances of OUR TIMES.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
My point is that it is not right for Catholics to go around pointing the finger at some politician and say: See! He is pro-choice! What a shame! He won’t pass a law to criminalise abortion and artificial birth control What a shame!
I don;t see the shame on the politicians as much as I see the shame on the Catholic women who are choosing aborition and who are choosing contraception. Now you tell me that Catholic p;riests are supporting the use of artificial contraception. What kind of Catholic Church is this where the Pope issues an encyclical condemning the use of artifical contraception, but Catholic priests are telling people that it is OK to use artificial contraception? If it is a mortal sin, why are Catholic priests telling people that it is OK to commit a mortal sin? In any case, I don;t see this as a fault of some politician who failed to make laws criminalising these things, which Catholic priests themselves (according to you) are recommending people to use?
Catholic women have to take personal responsibility for their actions and not go around blaiming some politician. The Catholic women have chosen, at a greater rate than the women in the US population at large, to use artificial birth control and to employ abortion at their convenience. Shouldn’t these Catholic women be held personally responsible for their actions?
Off topic, I apologize.

You know, I am all for “responsibility”, but you seem to forget it takes two to tango. The undertones in your posts here seem consistently misogynistic.

I would venture there are as many cases as not, where the male in the relationship applies a great deal of effort in getting his significant other to prevent/terminate pregnancies.I can’t recall any studies into this, but I may make the suggestion to the chair of social work at a local (Christian) university.

As for taking responsibility, I can remember clearly the progression of criminal justice activity in three specific areas where previous to political pressure, the matters were considered primarily personal (and tort) issues. Drunk driving–prior to MADD, a person could go merrily along whacking into whatever or whomever happened to be in his path. Jail terms were laughable when they did occur. Spousal assault–until the early 1990’s very few prosecutions were made into this crime, unless there was GBI or death. Child molestation-considered to be a psychological aberration that could be dealt with through counseling until the 1990’s, there was little regard for the pathological nature of the offense or damage to victims.

The inherent evil of abortion, especially in today’s world of medical advances, cannot be ignored, though the hedonists and progressives would have us believe otherwise.
 
You can’t do that–Z
that doesn’t seem fair.
If a man kills (or even just kidnaps) his child he will get a severe punishment, perhaps capital punishment.
If a woman kills her child by abortion, she is let off scot free.
 
Your argument is not related to the circumstances of OUR TIMES
You said that torture is morlly intolerable. If torture is morally intolerable, why did the Pope support the use of torture to extract confessions?
 
The undertones in your posts here seem consistently misogynistic…
Why is it misogynistic to recognise the fact that Catholic women are aborting and are contracepting at a rate greater than that of women in general?
If a man kills or kidnaps his child, he will be subject to severe penalties, and possibly the death penalty.
If a woman kills her child by a procured abortion, nothing happens.
The woman is free to kill her child by abortion.
 
that doesn’t seem fair.
If a man kills (or even just kidnaps) his child he will get a severe punishment, perhaps capital punishment.
If a woman kills her child by abortion, she is let off scot free.
The last response I gave was to jailing women for using contraceptives, some of which are abortifacents. Many women don’t even know that.

As for abortion…yes, in our society we have mixed messages given in relationship to parenthood and the child. Afterall some women kill their child shortly after birth and yet it is different from partial birth abortion, which is during birth. Doesn’t make sense to me either. I am all for making abortion illegal, having a policy of love and compassion and providing care and counseling for women who are pregnant and don’t feel they can handle being a parent in their present life situation. Adoption should be encouraged more over abortion. About an equal number of couples seek to adopt children as the number of children who are presently aborted…seeems obvious that adoption could help in both situations. Any person providing abortion to a pregnant person should be penalized, jailed as helping her murder her child. Rigght now they can’t do that because they have made the concept of “personhood” variable for the unborn child…and laws seem inconsistent, some penalizing the cause of death as manslaughter and others saying it was the mother’s right to kill her child. The inconsistency in the laws and logic manifests the overall injustice in abortion and points to the need to make a universal declaration that human personhood starts at conception.

Birth control needs to be eliminated by education and possible class action law suits against drug companies for injuring women and marriages.

In the meantime, we need to vote for someone who understands the true dignity of each human life from conception to grave.
One of the candidates in the presidential election (guess who)
voted against a law in his state that would have aided a baby who survived an abortion and was born alive…in other words kill the baby. The candidate wasn’t republican, so you can easily guess who it is. And this is the person we are looking to for ‘change’?
Help!

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
Why is it misogynistic to recognise the fact that Catholic women are aborting and are contracepting at a rate greater than that of women in general?
If a man kills or kidnaps his child, he will be subject to severe penalties, and possibly the death penalty.
If a woman kills her child by a procured abortion, nothing happens.
The woman is free to kill her child by abortion.
You answered half a statement, men are as responsible, in many, if not most cases as women for contraception and abortion, yet you lay it all at the feet of women. That sir, is by definition misogynistic, or at very least, faulty logic.
 
You said that torture is morlly intolerable. If torture is morally intolerable, why did the Pope support the use of torture to extract confessions?
You are trying to judge a past time period by the logic and understanding of a present time period. That is unfair to do.
You have heard of the saying “hindsight is better than foresight”…
well I think you can apply that to this example.

Would a Pope in the present time ever ask for torture to preserve orthodoxy in the Church? Of course not, that is why the church developed ‘excommunication’ to deal with dissenters and heretics…But in that time period, as the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia tried to explain, there was a different view or understanding and a heightened sense of the evil of error and attack on a church that had flourished and grown, so that it seemd to make sense in that time period to protect the sacred truth given to men through the church from attacks. in fact it probably seemed like the righteous thing to do, They were not even thinking in tems of protecting what is man made or the institution of the church…but they were fighting for what came directly to men from God, and I am sure they felt righteous about what they were doing. The main problem was politicians and secular leaders took thing much further than Chruch leaders, at least that is my understanding. The Church wanted to save souls…
but some politicians were using the inquisition for other reasons like getting rid of enemies.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia talking about the Inquisition::
"…
Moderns experience difficulty in understanding this institution, because they have, to no small extent, lost sight of two facts.

On the one hand they have ceased to grasp religious belief as something objective, as the gift of God, and therefore outside the realm of free private judgment; on the other they no longer see in the Church a society perfect and sovereign, based substantially on a pure and authentic Revelation, whose first most important duty must naturally be to retain unsullied this original deposit of faith. Before the religious revolution of the sixteenth century these views were still common to all Christians; that orthodoxy should be maintained at any cost seemed self-evident."

newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

Everyone is always saying “don’t judge this group or that”…but when it comes to jumping on the church and judging what happenind centuries ago, that is OK to do! Come on, stick to our time period…let’s try to get it straight here and now…

And I still submit that torture of a tine, helpless baby is as barbaric as human beings can be.

Did you know these clinics actually sell baby body parts? Doesn’t that turn your stomach, or make you want to just say "stop it’…this is not right!!!

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
You answered half a statement, men are as responsible, in many, if not most cases as women for contraception and abortion, yet you lay it all at the feet of women. That sir, is by definition misogynistic, or at very least, faulty logic.
Women are free to take the contraceptive pill or not. The fact is that the percentage of Catholic women in the USA who contracept is greater than woman at large in the USA . That is a simple fact. It really has nothing to do with misogyny. I do not have anything to do with the choices that these Catholic women are making.
The simple fact is this:
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely wrong to use any form of artificial contraception.
Many Catholic women are ignoring the teaching of the RCC and are contracepting.
 
Women are free to take the contraceptive pill or not. The fact is that the percentage of Catholic women in the USA who contracept is greater than woman at large in the USA . That is a simple fact. It really has nothing to do with misogyny. I do not have anything to do with the choices that these Catholic women are making.
The simple fact is this:
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely wrong to use any form of artificial contraception.
Many Catholic women are ignoring the teaching of the RCC and are contracepting.
I really would like to know where these stats come from. I nor any female member of our family have never been asked if we have or have ever use contraceptives. I know the drug store has never asked anyone I know for their religious affiliation.
 
Women are free to take the contraceptive pill or not. The fact is that the percentage of Catholic women in the USA who contracept is greater than woman at large in the USA . That is a simple fact. It really has nothing to do with misogyny. I do not have anything to do with the choices that these Catholic women are making.
The simple fact is this:
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely wrong to use any form of artificial contraception.
Many Catholic women are ignoring the teaching of the RCC and are contracepting.
How many parishes do you know regularly talk about this issue, have programs instructing women in natural family planning? Or , have pamplets out where women can read them?..

This is something that needs to be supported by the Catholic community. We need more talks by instructors in Natural Family Planning. In fact, I would say the family is not really supported to a large extent in parishes, at least from my experience.

Very few Parishes have regular retreat days for husbands and wives, something they could use…This is definitely an area to be improved upon. Many of the women have been given wrong advice or misunderstand the teaching and that is the sad fact. Their husbands do not encourage or help them and often misundertsand the church teachings as well.

Besides many people have been told that their own conscience is their guide. They have been told they can justify disobedience to Church teaching by their own Pastors and Priests. I have heard it myself. That is the sad state of affairs in the Catholic Church, USA.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
bobzills,
If the women is on the pill then the COUPLE is contracepting. Read up on the Theology of the Body.
 
I really would like to know where these stats come from.
Catholic Medical Weekly: Friday, March 16, 2007:
“In 1995, 70% of all U.S. Catholic women of childbearing age used some form of contraception. Since 64% of all women, regardless of faith, use contraception, the proportion of Catholic women who contracept is actually slightly higher than women at large.”
And please see:
Data from the National Center for Health Statistics, published in Fehring, R. and Schlidt, A.M. “Trends in Contraceptive Use Among Catholics in the United States: 1988-1995” The Linacre Quarterly - Journal of the Catholic Medical Association Vol.68 No. 2, May 2001. Pp. 170-185.
 
Catholic Medical Weekly: Friday, March 16, 2007:
“In 1995, 70% of all U.S. Catholic women of childbearing age used some form of contraception. Since 64% of all women, regardless of faith, use contraception, the proportion of Catholic women who contracept is actually slightly higher than women at large.”

Most Catholic women consider NFP a form of contraception

Really? Even if the husband does not want her to be on the pill?
.
Any statistics to determine the percentage of that nebulous assertion? Now you’re being silly.
 
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