U.S. Soldiers Mercenaries?

[Fitz]

Bobby A. Greene:

The draft is good for America and the formation of a American Foreign Legion would be better!

I respectfully disagree. We has some very unhappy soldiers during the Vietnam era, and we don’t need to repeat that.

 

[otm]

Fitz:

I respectfully disagree. We has some very unhappy soldiers during the Vietnam era, and we don’t need to repeat that.

We had some “unhappy” soldiers in Viet Nam because they were drafted at a point where it was becoming clear to anyone who wished to look that we were bogged down in a war that was not being fought to win, and a large percentage of the population was turning against both the war effort and the government.

Those who were drafte in the earlier part of the war were not “happy” about being drafted, but most troups did their jobs and weren’t “fragging” officers and senior non-coms.

It was not the draft per se that made for “unhappy” troups. It was the conduct of the war and the massive loss of support for the war. Prior to that the draft worked fine; and it did so during WW2 also.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fitz:

Is this how some will make a case for a draft, so that we have unwilling participants? Wait, even then we will still pay them. This is a ridiculous statement. Would some people prefer no protection, except after storms. I am sure most are appreciated the National Gurard right now in Louisianna and Alabama.

Fitz,
I think it is even more chilling that that. Read what she said one more time. Bold emphasis added.

“But I think what we’re coming to grips with is the fact that we actually have a mercenary Army. And it doesn’t have a nice ring to it. We call it ‘volunteers,’ but we’re basically paying people to serve their country.”

Do you see that? Once again, “we’re basically paying people to serve their country”.

Even when people are drafted into the military they are paid to serve their country.

It looks like she is calling for a slave military. To not compensate the soldiers for their service.

If you have noticed now, the military has increase the incentives to re-enlist and for first time enlistment, especially in the MOS’s (Military Occupational Specialties) that are in need today, like the Infantry in the Army. Then there is the added college money that can be earned and then the healthcare though the VA when one gets out of the military and is older (my father is recieving this today, he is retired).

Looks like some liberals might be getting worried about this.

 

[Fitz]

otm:

We had some “unhappy” soldiers in Viet Nam because they were drafted at a point where it was becoming clear to anyone who wished to look that we were bogged down in a war that was not being fought to win, and a large percentage of the population was turning against both the war effort and the government.

Those who were drafte in the earlier part of the war were not “happy” about being drafted, but most troups did their jobs and weren’t “fragging” officers and senior non-coms.

It was not the draft per se that made for “unhappy” troups. It was the conduct of the war and the massive loss of support for the war. Prior to that the draft worked fine; and it did so during WW2 also.

Why would we draft soldiers when we don’t need the numbers now? I think we should continue to have a volunteer service.

I meant no disrespect to any Vietnam Vets. I have the greatest respect for all the people that have given service to this country. Many of them did not get drafted, but volunteered also.

 

[thestickman]

estesbob:

Here’s Elenor Clift on this weekends MvGlaughlin group:

“But I think what we’re coming to grips with is the fact that we actually have a mercenary Army. And it doesn’t have a nice ring to it. We call it ‘volunteers,’ but we’re basically paying people to serve their country.”

Just when I thought no one from the left could say anything more inane, Elanor Clift comes through to prove me wrong,

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

Fitz:

I respectfully disagree. We has some very unhappy soldiers during the Vietnam era, and we don’t need to repeat that.

Just a small reality check: Serving in any branch of the military is a ‘duty’ and it usually isn’t very pleasant for anyone during peace or war. The draft is an ugly political reality necessary for the defense of the state in time of war; a wartime situation exists right now for the USA.

The sudden infusion of a great many intelligent and healthy citizens into the military is good for the service as it provides the career designated non-coms the quality manpower needed to get the job done. And military service creates a better, mature, and more appreciative American citizen.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

vern humphrey:

The British, who have a long history of democracy, did not have conscription until nearly the end of WWI. Without conscription and without large reserves, the Kaiser called them a “contemptable little army.”

Are you unaware of the 17th and 18th century ‘Press Gangs’?

 

[vern_humphrey]

ncjohn:

I’m not sure you need to draft everyone if that was up for discussion. A fair lottery system (not like the Vietnam era one) where there aren’t exemptions given might give you all the army you need. If you want universal, it still need not be all military–it could be a universal call to national service, one component of which would be military or reserve.

The problem is, there is no such thing as a fair lottery system – because the outcome is always the same. Some will be called upon to make great sacrifices, and others will skate.

ncjohn:

The main thing is that going to war is something that all citizens should have a stake in and as Catholics we should want people thinking very hard about it before supporting leaders or potential leaders who are going to make those decisions. If nothing else, when your own ox stands to be gored you’ll try to find the alternative that is least likely to provide that outcome.

You can’t achieve that with a lottery system – only when almost everyone knows he or she will have to go will you have that effect.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bobby A. Greene:

Are you unaware of the 17th and 18th century ‘Press Gangs’?

The press gangs were indeed a form of the draft – but were mostly limited to the Navy, and took (theoretically) only seamen. The press system ended in the mid-19th Century.

The British Army did not use a draft until well toward the final year of WWI.

 

[otm]

Fitz:

Why would we draft soldiers when we don’t need the numbers now? I think we should continue to have a volunteer service.

I meant no disrespect to any Vietnam Vets. I have the greatest respect for all the people that have given service to this country. Many of them did not get drafted, but volunteered also.

I wasn’t necessarily suggesting that we reinstate the draft. I was only replying to the comments about unhappy soldiers, and the presumption that they will be unhappy if drafted.

Things were starting to get out of hand when I got “in country”; units ( only a few at first) were starting to balk at going out on patrol. Balking, as in outright refusing an order, and if action was taken, “fragging” officers and senior non-coms.

Fragging, for the uninitiated, consists of rolling a grenade into the tent or living quarters; grenades generally do a pretty good job in close spaces of wounding or killing those in the near vicinity. This was simply unheard of prior to, say, late 1969 early 1970. It did not spread all over, but it became a significant problem.

That was what I was referring to as “unhappy” soldiers; by that time, the tide had shifted significan’ty and probably more than 50% of the US - mother, fathers, aunts, uncles, and anyone eligibile for the draft - was vocally against the war and becoming more so.

I still have a very strong feeling that part of citizenship should include some period of service to the country; either military or civil service; and I think it should be a minimum of 1 year. Citizenship has become extremely “cheap”, as in having little or no value. But that may be for adifferent time and place.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

vern humphrey:

The press gangs were indeed a form of the draft – but were mostly limited to the Navy, and took (theoretically) only seamen. The press system ended in the mid-19th Century.

The British Army did not use a draft until well toward the final year of WWI.

Actually, the Press Gangs did acquire men for the Army (which I just recently came across in my research).
infoplease.com/dictionary/press+gang
Both the British Army and Navy used Press Gangs for recruitment purposes. The “Hot Press” was the use of violence or trickery to enlist the unwilling citizen.
In 19th century Boston and San Francisco, the ‘Crimps’ did a lot of Shanghaiing to man the clipper ships. The Crimps used the Hot Press extensively (getting banged off the head or drinking a mickey finn then waking up at sea .).
I haven’t come across any literature indicating if Mercenaries used Press Gangs or not?
But as defined by the Geneva Convention, no member military of a recognized government acting in a conflict is considered to be mercenary.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bobby A. Greene:

Actually, the Press Gangs did acquire men for the Army (which I just recently came across in my research).
infoplease.com/dictionary/press+gang
Both the British Army and Navy used Press Gangs for recruitment purposes.

But mostly for the Navy.

The traditional Britsh Army method was to get a man drunk and put a shilling in the bottom of the tankard. Having “taken the shilling” the man was obliged to serve.
Bobby A. Greene:

The “Hot Press” was the use of violence or trickery to enlist the unwilling citizen.
In 19th century Boston and San Francisco, the ‘Crimps’ did a lot of Shanghaiing to man the clipper ships.

What’s that got to do with the draft?

“Shanghaing” is simply kidnapping, and is not a governmental action. To compare that to a legally-constututed draft is like comparing a mugging to the income tax.
Bobby A. Greene:

The Crimps used the Hot Press extensively (getting banged off the head or drinking a mickey finn then waking up at sea .).
I haven’t come across any literature indicating if Mercenaries used Press Gangs or not?
But as defined by the Geneva Convention, no member military of a recognized government acting in a conflict is considered to be mercenary.

That is correct – and it would be a dispicable thing to refer to them as such.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

That is correct – and it would be a dispicable thing to refer to them as such.

The nearest any American military forces came to be “mercenaries” were the Marines during the 20s and 30s in Central America when they were, for most practical purposes, no more than the goon squads of the United Fruit Company and Dole Fruit Company. And that’s only by a stretch of the term.

The term is quite unapplicable to any modern U.S. military organization.

 

[Brendan]

jjwilkman:

i think mercenaries fight for couintries other than their own.

the hessians for the british in the revolutionary war.

The Hessians were actually fighting for their country’s leader. George III was also Prince of Hannover, which included Hessen.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

The nearest any American military forces came to be “mercenaries” were the Marines during the 20s and 30s in Central America when they were, for most practical purposes, no more than the goon squads of the United Fruit Company and Dole Fruit Company. And that’s only by a stretch of the term.

The term is quite unapplicable to any modern U.S. military organization.

The Marines of that era were hardly mercenaries, and were badly needed to save lives and maintain order (look at Haiti today.)

I recommend reading “And a Few Marines” by John W. Thomason. Thomason was a colonel in the Marine Corps during WWI and the Interwar Period, retiring just before WWII.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

The Marines of that era were hardly mercenaries,

Correct, but they came as close to that term, though by a great stretch, as any American armed forces ever did.

and were badly needed to save lives and maintain order (look at Haiti today.)

Save lives and maintain order, yes, so that the operations of the great American fruit companies in Central America would not be jeopardized. Like the civilian goon squads employed by automakers back in that era, the Marines served, to their disgrace IMO, as the goons of the American banana and pineapple cartels in the region.

There is no doubt, however, that any tarnish they had because of their activities in that period disappeared when World War II began and they so well served national, not private interests.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Correct, but they came as close to that term, though by a great stretch, as any American armed forces ever did.

It’s like pregnancy. You don’t “come close” to being a mercenary – you are or you aren’t.
Arba Sicula:

Save lives and maintain order, yes, so that the operations of the great American fruit companies in Central America would not be jeopardized. Like the civilian goon squads employed by automakers back in that era, the Marines served, to their disgrace IMO, as the goons of the American banana and pineapple cartels in the region.

And what proof of that do you have?

The accusations were made by some activists, certainly – but they never offered proof.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

Here’s the opinion of one man connected with the disgraceful and dishonorable acts of our Marines in the Caribbean:

Smedley Darlington Butler, one of the most decorated soldiers in the history of the Marine Corps and recipient of two Medals of Honor and the Distinguished Service Medal, became unspeakably disillusioned with his accomplishments. His service record reads like an itinerary of all the “peacekeeping” and “humanitarian interventions” Wilson’s enlightened and honourable foreign policy brought to a benighted world. After his retirement in 1931, Butler wrote, "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

“Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

 

[thestickman]

Arba Sicula:

Here’s the opinion of one man connected with the disgraceful and dishonorable acts of our Marines in the Caribbean:

Smedley Darlington Butler, one of the most decorated soldiers in the history of the Marine Corps and recipient of two Medals of Honor and the Distinguished Service Medal, became unspeakably disillusioned with his accomplishments. His service record reads like an itinerary of all the “peacekeeping” and “humanitarian interventions” Wilson’s enlightened and honourable foreign policy brought to a benighted world. After his retirement in 1931, Butler wrote, "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
"I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

“Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

No link?

 

[wabrams]

vern humphrey:

The Marines of that era were hardly mercenaries, and were badly needed to save lives and maintain order (look at Haiti today.)

I recommend reading “And a Few Marines” by John W. Thomason. Thomason was a colonel in the Marine Corps during WWI and the Interwar Period, retiring just before WWII.

I don’t see how anyone could ever think of the Marines as mercs, but apparently our government at the time tried to USE them like mercenaries.

Circa 1915:
The first sailors and marines landed in Port-au-Prince on July 28. Within six weeks, representatives from the United States controlled Haitian customs houses and administrative institutions. For the next nineteen years, Haiti’s powerful neighbor to the north guided and governed the country.
Representatives from the United States wielded veto power over all governmental decisions in Haiti, and Marine Corps commanders served as administrators in the provinces. Local institutions, however, continued to be run by Haitians, as was required under policies put in place during the presidency of Woodrow Wilson.

Source:
globalsecurity.org/military/ops/haiti19.htm

I really wish I could find the name of the USMC officer who commanded the battalion that disbanded the Haitan Parliament at gunpoint. He said something to the effect of that incident was the only time he was ashamed to have worn the uniform.