UK bans teaching of creationism in any school which receives public funding

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First of all, Leaf, I am an “old earth” creationist. God has existed forever in the past. I don’t believe that if God chose to create organisms whole, this would not make Him a “sideshow magician”. Now, I would not believe in macro-evolution even if it was presented theistically. But if you believe that God directed evolution, and that existence without Him is impossible, why are you satisfied to know that your views are eschewed in today’s biology classes? It seems to me that students are entitled to know that views such as yours exist, and that you may have a rational basis for it. If you or I are wrong, it would behoove the naturalists to blow us out of the water.
I believe that the reason that Darwinists are so adamant that criticisms of evolution be forbidden in schools is cowardice. They know that properly presented challenges and alternative views will prevail in the minds of millions of young minds.

:newidea: Blessings, Rob
OK, now you are starting to make some sense. But as a philosophical exercise, it is interesting to note that the “young earth” creationists might be right. That is, maybe the earth is only 6000 years old, and God created it in such a way and planted evidence to make it look 4 billion years old. It is possible, but not very satisfying theologically. Because this makes God into a deceptive being, to whom truth is not as important as appearances. I have a great deal of difficulty accepting God as a deceptive being. It is Satan who is the Father of Lies, not God. Therefore, because of my understanding of the nature of God, I am forced to believe that God loves truth, is not deceptive, and would not construct the earth so as to mislead us like that.

As for macro-evolution being presented theistically, it makes no more sense than to present gravity theistically. Of course God created gravity. But that does not mean we have to hammer that into students in a science class - even a science class in religious school. The proper place to consider the role of God in creation is in a religion class.

Why am I satisfied to know that my views are eschewed in today’s biology classes? Well, I am not satisfied if anyone anywhere does not know of God’s love and care for us. Why focus specifically on biology class? There are all sorts of classes that do not mention or acknowledge God.

It does bother me, though, that adamant atheists try to use evolution as a tool to tear down God. But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to deny the existence of that tool when the proper response is to show how the atheists are coming to their conclusions through misuse of that tool, which fortunately is quite easy.

There is a wide range of people who hold various versions of evolution - some reasonable, some quite extreme. We must be careful not to lump them all under some single convenient banner, like “Darwinists” or “Secularists”, or we run the risk of discrediting the faith we hold so dear.
 
OK, now you are starting to make some sense. But as a philosophical exercise, it is interesting to note that the “young earth” creationists might be right. That is, maybe the earth is only 6000 years old, and God created it in such a way and planted evidence to make it look 4 billion years old. It is possible, but not very satisfying theologically. Because this makes God into a deceptive being, to whom truth is not as important as appearances. I have a great deal of difficulty accepting God as a deceptive being. It is Satan who is the Father of Lies, not God. Therefore, because of my understanding of the nature of God, I am forced to believe that God loves truth, is not deceptive, and would not construct the earth so as to mislead us like that.

As for macro-evolution being presented theistically, it makes no more sense than to present gravity theistically. Of course God created gravity. But that does not mean we have to hammer that into students in a science class - even a science class in religious school. The proper place to consider the role of God in creation is in a religion class.

Why am I satisfied to know that my views are eschewed in today’s biology classes? Well, I am not satisfied if anyone anywhere does not know of God’s love and care for us. Why focus specifically on biology class? There are all sorts of classes that do not mention or acknowledge God.

It does bother me, though, that adamant atheists try to use evolution as a tool to tear down God. But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to deny the existence of that tool when the proper response is to show how the atheists are coming to their conclusions through misuse of that tool, which fortunately is quite easy.

There is a wide range of people who hold various versions of evolution - some reasonable, some quite extreme. We must be careful not to lump them all under some single convenient banner, like “Darwinists” or “Secularists”, or we run the risk of discrediting the faith we hold so dear.
Physics is not presented in a way which threatens anyone’s faith. Evolution is. That is why challenges to naturalistic orthodoxy should be welcomed. Physics is dead science. We don’t understand it all, obviously, but what is fact will never change. Biology teaches that somehow a culture of protozoa contained so much possibility for change that over vast eons they transformed into all the organisms we marvel at today. And the process, if it exists, continues unabated. But we have zero understanding of what kinds of mutations could have created hearing, vision, thinking, the list goes on. Biologists assume that it has happened.
We may never agree on origins. Let’s just say that I consider myself a skeptic of the skeptics. Sometimes the easiest answer is the correct answer.
I know that it is not always accurate to lump people into groups, but general terms help the flow of ideas. I know that some people hate being called a “Darwinist”, e.g. BUt the guy is still hailed in secular circles to this day, and most give him major credit for TOE. Rob :o
 
Physics is not presented in a way which threatens anyone’s faith. Evolution is.
Not everywhere. Some may present it that way, but most do not. Evolution threatens your faith only if you choose to think it does.
That is why challenges to naturalistic orthodoxy should be welcomed.
Challenges to scientific theories are always welcomed. But only scientific challenges. The ones from the Creationists are clothed in scientific terminology, but there are still religious doctrine underneath.
Physics is dead science …will never change.
Then you don’t know physics very well. It is very much a work in progress. One only has to look at the revolution in physics caused by Einstein’s Theory of Relativity to see that even in physics, things we thought we knew can turn out to be untrue.
Biology teaches that somehow a culture of protozoa contained so much possibility for change that over vast eons they transformed into all the organisms we marvel at today.
So, what’s wrong with that?
But we have zero understanding of what kinds of mutations could have created hearing, vision, thinking, the list goes on.
That depends on what you mean by “understanding”. When things happen that are partially determined by a random event, we don’t have an understanding of exactly why that event happened. As in radioactive decay, an atom may or may not decay and emit energy some time in the next minute. We cannot predict exactly when it will do it. But that does not mean we do not have a working understanding of the process of radioactive decay. And in biology, we do not have to have a blueprint of every advancement in evolution to say that we understand it well enough to know what is going on. It is not unreasonable to think that hearing, vision, etc., all evolved according to processes of random variation.
Biologists assume that it has happened.
In the same way that we assume the earth is 6 billion years old?
Sometimes the easiest answer is the correct answer.
And evolution is the easiest answer to the question of how life became diverse.
I know that some people hate being called a “Darwinist”, e.g. BUt the guy is still hailed in secular circles to this day, and most give him major credit for TOE. Rob :o
I think Darwin himself would strongly disagree with many of the conclusions that some people are drawing from his TOE.
 
Not everywhere. Some may present it that way, but most do not. Evolution threatens your faith only if you choose to think it does.
“Evolution proselytizers such as Dawkins, Sagan and Gould are or were downright hostile to theism.”
Challenges to scientific theories are always welcomed. But only scientific challenges. The ones from the Creationists are clothed in scientific terminology, but there are still religious doctrine underneath.
“18,000 fibers in each ear which enable hearing, all of which can fit on the head of a pin, evolved how? Sorry if I don’t buy the official story.”
Then you don’t know physics very well. It is very much a work in progress. One only has to look at the revolution in physics caused by Einstein’s Theory of Relativity to see that even in physics, things we thought we knew can turn out to be untrue.
“I do not make the absurd claim that there are no longer infinite mysteries for physicists to discover.”
So what’s wrong with that?
'You have more faith in the nebulous process of evolution to create amazing organisms and structures than I could ever have."
That depends on what you mean by “understanding”. When things happen that are partially determined by a random event, we don’t have an understanding of exactly why that event happened. As in radioactive decay, an atom may or may not decay and emit energy some time in the next minute. We cannot predict exactly when it will do it. But that does not mean we do not have a working understanding of the process of radioactive decay. And in biology, we do not have to have a blueprint of every advancement in evolution to say that we understand it well enough to know what is going on. It is not unreasonable to think that hearing, vision, etc., all evolved according to processes of random variation.
“You do not have a “blueprint” for advancements of evolution, yet you present it as fact!”
In the same way that we assume the earth is 6 billion years old?
“That IS quite an assumption, but at least the guess is based upon how quickly celestial bodies are moving away from each other.”
And evolution is the easiest answer to the question of how life became diverse.
“The “easiest” answer for me is that God created organisms whole.”
I think Darwin himself would strongly disagree with many of the conclusions that some people are drawing from his TOE.
“I would hope so! Darwin stated that if the basic unit of life turned out to be extremely complex “stuff”, and not simple as he assumed, his theory would be in crisis.”

Best, Rob 🙂
 
“Evolution proselytizers such as Dawkins, Sagan and Gould are or were downright hostile to theism.”
Yes, but you do not have to buy into their philosophy to accept the purely scientific aspects of evolution.
“You do not have a “blueprint” for advancements of evolution, yet you present it as fact!”
First of all, nothing in science is ever presented as a fact. Even gravity is still called a theory. So when we talk about the theory of evolution, we really do mean a theory, not a fact. But in science a theory is more than just a wild guess. It is a guess that is supported by a significant amount of evidence. Theories have been overturned when new evidence is produced. For example there was once a theory of “ether” as a medium filling all of space in which light moves. This theory has been largely invalidated by relativity. The same thing could happen to evolution. But it would take a lot of evidence and a new theory to do that - something the anti-evolutionists have yet to provide. I don’t consider thought experiments about irreducible jumps to be new evidence.

Secondly, what is wrong with a theory that does not explain every little detail?
That IS quite an assumption that the earth is 6 billion years old], but at least the guess is based upon how quickly celestial bodies are moving away from each other.
Exactly! Now you understand what a scientific theory is. It is an assumption that has some basis in observations. You accept the theory that the earth is 6 billion years old because of these supporting observations. The reason you do not accept evolution is that you have not yet become acquainted with the details of the massive amount of supporting observations of DNA and life form morphology and fossils. Taken all together, these observations form a body of facts that are hard to justify any other way than evolution. Unless you suppose a deceptive God who has done all these things directly and miraculously, and then left all this misleading evidence pointing to evolution.
The “easiest” answer for me is that God created organisms whole.
Not really. That does not explain all the evidence that points to evolution. Unless God created that evidence too. Then you must wonder what purpose He would have for creating all this misleading evidence.
 
Actually your faith, if Catholic, does not preclude the possibility that we evolved from apes. It does require that at some point, a soul was put in place.

Ishii
To be factual, evolutionary theory doesn’t teach we evolved from apes. It teaches we evolved from a common ancestor. So while the catholic faith may not preclude the belief, evolutionary theory does.

God bless
 
Yes, but you do not have to buy into their philosophy to accept the purely scientific aspects of evolution.

First of all, nothing in science is ever presented as a fact. Even gravity is still called a theory. So when we talk about the theory of evolution, we really do mean a theory, not a fact. But in science a theory is more than just a wild guess. It is a guess that is supported by a significant amount of evidence. Theories have been overturned when new evidence is produced. For example there was once a theory of “ether” as a medium filling all of space in which light moves. This theory has been largely invalidated by relativity. The same thing could happen to evolution. But it would take a lot of evidence and a new theory to do that - something the anti-evolutionists have yet to provide. I don’t consider thought experiments about irreducible jumps to be new evidence.

Secondly, what is wrong with a theory that does not explain every little detail?

Exactly! Now you understand what a scientific theory is. It is an assumption that has some basis in observations. You accept the theory that the earth is 6 billion years old because of these supporting observations. The reason you do not accept evolution is that you have not yet become acquainted with the details of the massive amount of supporting observations of DNA and life form morphology and fossils. Taken all together, these observations form a body of facts that are hard to justify any other way than evolution. Unless you suppose a deceptive God who has done all these things directly and miraculously, and then left all this misleading evidence pointing to evolution.

Not really. That does not explain all the evidence that points to evolution. Unless God created that evidence too. Then you must wonder what purpose He would have for creating all this misleading evidence.
I have read a lot of what evolutionists believe, but when you break it down, none of it explains how you get from point A to pont B, let alone point Z. One would think that there would be experiments showing how processes evolve, at least small steps, but there are not. As I mentioned earlier, how exactly do you get more information in the nucleus of one cell than exists in the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica without intelligent design? You can’t, and biology texts should highlight this obvious truth, and confess the obvious need for a Creator. Rob 😉
 
I have read a lot of what evolutionists believe, but when you break it down, none of it explains how you get from point A to pont B, let alone point Z. One would think that there would be experiments showing how processes evolve, at least small steps.
There are such experiments. One only has to look at dogs which have evolved from wolves and then become extremely diverse - mostly through the selection process due to interaction with humans. You may want to call these changes too small, but considering the short time span over which they occurred, the changes are huge. If changes of that magnitude over a short time are extrapolated over the millions of years that macro evolution has taken place, the changes in the DNA are sufficient to account for the changes in the morphology. One thing that has really helped this research is DNA sequencing. This technology has allowed us to measure quite precisely the rate at which DNA mutates. This measure allows us to take any two animals and estimate how far back in time you might find the common ancestor. On a shorter time scale, this same technology can be used to find distant relatives you did not know you had, for only $100 and some of your spit.

As for experiments showing an eye evolving from nothing, that is way beyond the reach of any reasonable time scale for an experiment. But if we cannot observe the evolution of an eye, we can observe how evolution degrades the eyes of animals that live in perpetual darkness; in just a few hundred generations the eyes cease being eyes. That is more evidence that selection for a profitable characteristic is needed to keep the characteristic working.
As I mentioned earlier, how exactly do you get more information in the nucleus of one cell than exists in the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica without intelligent design?
How can you get that much information in the nucleus of a cell even** with** intelligent design? Either the information is there or it isn’t. Whether God put it there or it evolved to have that much information, it is no more or less surprising.
You can’t, and biology texts should highlight this obvious truth, and confess the obvious need for a Creator. Rob 😉
The need for a Creator can be established much more directly than looking for ways in which the Creator broke his own rules. How about the fact there there are rules at all? That to me is much more wondrous than finding exceptions to the rules.
 
There are such experiments. One only has to look at dogs which have evolved from wolves and then become extremely diverse - mostly through the selection process due to interaction with humans. You may want to call these changes too small, but considering the short time span over which they occurred, the changes are huge. If changes of that magnitude over a short time are extrapolated over the millions of years that macro evolution has taken place, the changes in the DNA are sufficient to account for the changes in the morphology. One thing that has really helped this research is DNA sequencing. This technology has allowed us to measure quite precisely the rate at which DNA mutates. This measure allows us to take any two animals and estimate how far back in time you might find the common ancestor. On a shorter time scale, this same technology can be used to find distant relatives you did not know you had, for only $100 and some of your spit.

As for experiments showing an eye evolving from nothing, that is way beyond the reach of any reasonable time scale for an experiment. But if we cannot observe the evolution of an eye, we can observe how evolution degrades the eyes of animals that live in perpetual darkness; in just a few hundred generations the eyes cease being eyes. That is more evidence that selection for a profitable characteristic is needed to keep the characteristic working.

How can you get that much information in the nucleus of a cell even** with** intelligent design? Either the information is there or it isn’t. Whether God put it there or it evolved to have that much information, it is no more or less surprising.

The need for a Creator can be established much more directly than looking for ways in which the Creator broke his own rules. How about the fact there there are rules at all? That to me is much more wondrous than finding exceptions to the rules.
  1. Dogs have been bred by intelligent designers. About those animals that lose their eyesight, why did they evolve eyes in the first place if they live underground? Mutations are usually negative or neutral, yet evolutionists expect us to believe that, over time, billions of positive mutations have happened and been retained.
  2. Are you saying that this information inside the nucleus of a cell evolves as well?
  3. God did not break his own rules by creating organisms whole. Maybe evolutionists’ rules, but certainly not His. Christ’s resurrection broke the rules, as understood by humans. 🙂 Rob
 
  1. Dogs have been bred by intelligent designers. About those animals that lose their eyesight, why did they evolve eyes in the first place if they live underground? Mutations are usually negative or neutral, yet evolutionists expect us to believe that, over time, billions of positive mutations have happened and been retained.
  2. Are you saying that this information inside the nucleus of a cell evolves as well?
  3. God did not break his own rules by creating organisms whole. Maybe evolutionists’ rules, but certainly not His. Christ’s resurrection broke the rules, as understood by humans. 🙂 Rob
I may be wrong in this detail, but I don’t think mutations are mostly negative or neutral? A mutation can have a positive effect on the organism for all sorts of reasons…it might be something that makes it more sexually attractive or maybe have slightly longer legs ( something that breeders of certain animals pick up on and exploit rather quicker than nature would, or that nature might not pick up on at all). Organisms adapt to their environment…if they have time, they evolve to meet the demands of a changing environment. If the change is too quick for them to adapt then they move if they can, or die out. A creature which moved underground to maybe escape increased heat or cold or drought, may adapt very well to its new environment but strong eyes would not be needed - indeed they might be a disadvantage and therefore be selected out. Another creature might adapt to that same change in environment a different way - selecting for thicker fur or skin for example.
Your main objection to the theory of evolution seems to be that you can’t see a place for God in it. That does not make it right or wrong as a scientific theory! You can’t say…this is how I’ve developed my religious faith, evolution doesn’t fit, therefore it’s wrong!
I don’t see why you need to be afraid of the evidence, and afraid of opening your mind to the proof all around us. Some things you believe without any proof at all!
 
  1. Dogs have been bred by intelligent designers.
The only “intelligent” thing they did was to select dogs with certain characteristics. The mutations that caused the differences were not intelligently introduced by the human breeders. Those mutations were random.

And the very first evolutionary changes from wolves to dogs were not directed by humans at all. Some wolves were more tolerant of living alongside humans than other wolves. These wolves were rewarded with food and other benefits of human contact. That was the selection process. It was more natural than human directed. Humans did not even notice at first that certain wolves were changing and becoming more desirable as pets. But once that happened, changes took off in a bigger way. Still, the only thing humans did was to select among the choices offered by random mutations.
About those animals that lose their eyesight, why did they evolve eyes in the first place if they live underground?
Because their ancestors did not live underground, but lived above ground and had functioning eyes. But at some point some individuals chose to live underground, or maybe they were cut off by a natural accident. For whatever reason, they started living underground, and evolution gradually destroyed the eyes. Why should it do that? Because having eyes underground is no particular advantage, and the energy resources that went in to making eyes could be more profitably used in other ways. So those individuals who diverted their biological resources from eyes to, maybe, hearing, were more successful than those who continued to put their biological resources into developing eyes. That’s evolution at work.
Mutations are usually negative or neutral, yet evolutionists expect us to believe that, over time, billions of positive mutations have happened and been retained.
That is true. The vast majority of mutations are negative, and those individuals who are unfortunate enough to have a negative mutation are probably not going to live long enough to pass along that mutation to their offspring. So negative mutations die out really quickly. But every once in a great while, a mutation is positive, and such a mutation will allow the individual to pass along that mutation more successfully than others of his kind. So positive mutations, as rare as they might be, are amplified and eventually dominate the species.
Are you saying that this information inside the nucleus of a cell evolves as well?
Since you were the first one to use the term “information” with regard to the nucleus of a cell, I can only guess at what you might have meant. I assumed you meant the information to build an entire organism. But that is not really evolution. That is simple reproduction. And I suppose you already believe that in ordinary reproduction, all the information on how to build an complete organism is contained in the initial fertilized egg.

But if you were talking about information in the sense of evolution, like maybe saying that the protozoa nucleus has within it all the information about evolving eyes or whatever some future macro-evolved descendent might have, that is not how evolution works. That information is definitely not in the cell of primitive life forms. That information, such as it is, is acquired gradually through contact with the environment. It is the environment that provides the information of what characteristics are beneficial and which are not. Through the process of natural selection.

If you want to see a nice concrete example of how information can be acquired by a collection of matchboxes and colored beads, see this article by the legenary Martin Gardener. It shows how, without any instruction or initial information, this collection of stuff can gradually learn the optimal strategy to play a simple game -** hexapawn** - in a way that mimics biological evolution. I actually built one of these when I was a kid.

The point is, it is only through the selection process provided by a sometimes hostile environment that the cells “learn” which random mutations to keep and which to discard. In other words, they learn how to evolve. The information was never in the cell to begin with, so you don’t need to imagine how a primitive cell could know all about what future evolutionary possibilities there are. It just doesn’t happen that way.
God did not break his own rules by creating organisms whole.
“His own rules” means the rules of nature that God set up when he created the universe. I certainly didn’t mean rules that God needed to abide by, since He is obviously not bound by any rules. But you have not addressed the issue of how God could be so deceptive as to make all the evidence point to evolution, yet not have evolution be true.
 
Leaf, you are a good-natured sort, but to assume that you know the “rules of God” when He created the universe is presumptuous. And to say that there is anything “simple” about reproduction, is, with due respect. outlandish.
As for dogs, I have read that if you put all breeds of dogs on an island, eventually the dogs will return to form. All breeders can do is work with existing DNA information; Try as they might, an elephant’s trunk will not be brandished by any future breed of dog.
As for natural organization, we are talking billions of parts here. Really? Did a cell really organize itself?
You have a naturalistic answer for everything, so why do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ? You do know that people who believe as you do usually reject Jesus’ resurrection, as well as God Himself, on purely logical grounds. It seems to me that you have eaten 99% of the poisoned apple, but yet hold tight to the final one per cent. :confused: Rob
 
You have a naturalistic answer for everything, so why do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ? You do know that people who believe as you do usually reject Jesus’ resurrection, as well as God Himself, on purely logical grounds. It seems to me that you have eaten 99% of the poisoned apple, but yet hold tight to the final one per cent. :confused: Rob
It is very insulting of you to question our faith. It is people like you who drive believers away from the faith. Either you believe in God, or you “believe” in evolution.

Do you realise that you are operating in the same way as the militant atheists?
 
It is very insulting of you to question our faith. It is people like you who drive believers away from the faith. Either you believe in God, or you “believe” in evolution.
Do you realise that you are operating in the same way as the militant atheists?
I KNOW that you believe in the resurrection, and I would never challenge that, Hans. What I do not understand is how a person can completely accept naturalism in every phase of life, from protozoa to man, yet still believe that God has chosen to defy His own natural laws this one time by raising Christ from death. It’s an honest if uncomfortable question, I admit.
Just today I learned that my dear RC friend’s 16 yo granson has completely lost his faith thanks to his buying faithless TOE. Another one bites the dust, and I am sick of it. My own grandfather was a coal miner, who was electrocuted at 29. Thanks to the coal barons of his day accepting “social Darwinism”, they tossed his body 10 feet onto his porch for my grandmother to find in the morning, along with his two toddler sons. No human decency to even knock to convey the tragic news! Blessings, Rob 😦
 
Leaf, you are a good-natured sort, but to assume that you know the “rules of God” when He created the universe is presumptuous.
I thought I already explained that. I was not presuming to know what rule God operated under. I was referring to the rules of physics that God put into creation for us to discover. It is those rules that miracles break. I believe miracles do happen, but I see no reason to ascribe miraculous intervention to the development of different species.
And to say that there is anything “simple” about reproduction, is, with due respect. outlandish.
When compared to evolution, reproduction is simple. I thought you would agree with that at least, since you say that evolution is too complex to be believed, yet reproduction is not so complex that you don’t believe it happens.
As for dogs, I have read that if you put all breeds of dogs on an island, eventually the dogs will return to form.
If you mean that they will eventually revert to wolves, that sounds plausible. If the artificial environment created by man favored the development of modern breeds of dog, it stands to reason that if you removed that artificial environment, the characteristics that made them so successful as pets will no longer benefit them. Many breeds (like Chiwawas) would probably just die out completely. Only the breeds that have what it takes to survive in the wild will survive. Those would be the breeds that are the most wolf-like. So it sounds like you have just made a good argument for evolution.
All breeders can do is work with existing DNA information; Try as they might, an elephant’s trunk will not be brandished by any future breed of dog.
There really is different information in the DNA of a Chiwawa and the DNA of a Terrier. How else do you account for the differences in size or shape. The fact that these dogs to not have an elephant’s trunk is no argument against evolution. The time span for evolution developing such a different organ is much longer than the time span during which dogs evolved from wolves. But given enough time, and the right environment, it is conceivable that dogs could develop something like an elephant’s trunk. It is just that you will have to allow enough time for that to happen - maybe 20 million years.
As for natural organization, we are talking billions of parts here. Really? Did a cell really organize itself?
It sounds like you are just throwing around some ID buzzwords. I never said anything about “natural organization”. That is an ID invention. You don’t need anything like natural organization for evolution to work.
You have a naturalistic answer for everything, so why do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Who said I had a naturalistic answer for everything? I was only giving a naturalistic answer for one thing - evolution of species. Why is it you think having a naturalistic explanation for evolution of species is dangerous to faith in Jesus, which having a naturalistic explanation for gravity is not dangerous to one’s faith? I just don’t understand the problem.
You do know that people who believe as you do usually reject Jesus’ resurrection, as well as God Himself…
I don’t think their accepting evolution was the chief cause of their rejection of the Christian faith. It might have been one of the consequences of having rejected God, but the not the cause.
It seems to me that you have eaten 99% of the poisoned apple, but yet hold tight to the final one per cent. :confused: Rob
I dispute that this particular apple is poisoned at all. In fact the wonders of evolution are helpful in my confirming my faith in God. Having to believe in what I still consider the “side show magician” origin of species would in fact make it harder for me to believe in God.
 
I thought I already explained that. I was not presuming to know what rule God operated under. I was referring to the rules of physics that God put into creation for us to discover. It is those rules that miracles break. I believe miracles do happen, but I see no reason to ascribe miraculous intervention to the development of different species.

When compared to evolution, reproduction is simple. I thought you would agree with that at least, since you say that evolution is too complex to be believed, yet reproduction is not so complex that you don’t believe it happens.

If you mean that they will eventually revert to wolves, that sounds plausible. If the artificial environment created by man favored the development of modern breeds of dog, it stands to reason that if you removed that artificial environment, the characteristics that made them so successful as pets will no longer benefit them. Many breeds (like Chiwawas) would probably just die out completely. Only the breeds that have what it takes to survive in the wild will survive. Those would be the breeds that are the most wolf-like. So it sounds like you have just made a good argument for evolution.

There really is different information in the DNA of a Chiwawa and the DNA of a Terrier. How else do you account for the differences in size or shape. The fact that these dogs to not have an elephant’s trunk is no argument against evolution. The time span for evolution developing such a different organ is much longer than the time span during which dogs evolved from wolves. But given enough time, and the right environment, it is conceivable that dogs could develop something like an elephant’s trunk. It is just that you will have to allow enough time for that to happen - maybe 20 million years.

It sounds like you are just throwing around some ID buzzwords. I never said anything about “natural organization”. That is an ID invention. You don’t need anything like natural organization for evolution to work.

Who said I had a naturalistic answer for everything? I was only giving a naturalistic answer for one thing - evolution of species. Why is it you think having a naturalistic explanation for evolution of species is dangerous to faith in Jesus, which having a naturalistic explanation for gravity is not dangerous to one’s faith? I just don’t understand the problem.

I don’t think their accepting evolution was the chief cause of their rejection of the Christian faith. It might have been one of the consequences of having rejected God, but the not the cause.

I dispute that this particular apple is poisoned at all. In fact the wonders of evolution are helpful in my confirming my faith in God. Having to believe in what I still consider the “side show magician” origin of species would in fact make it harder for me to believe in God.
You are a good guy, or gal, Leaf. Each of us think the other has gone off the deep end. That’s all right. I will never understand or accept that something as complex as vision, hearing or blood clotting can evolve out of basically nothing. The one thing that I do know is that TOE is extremely dangerous to the faith. MANY millions have accepted the theory and have come to reject Christianity as a result. Of course, there are many other reasons, but I place TOE at the top of the list. Blessings, Rob
 
You are a good guy, or gal, Leaf. Each of us think the other has gone off the deep end. That’s all right. I will never understand or accept that something as complex as vision, hearing or blood clotting can evolve out of basically nothing. The one thing that I do know is that TOE is extremely dangerous to the faith. MANY millions have accepted the theory and have come to reject Christianity as a result. Of course, there are many other reasons, but I place TOE at the top of the list. Blessings, Rob
I can no longer continue trying to convince you of the validity of the TOE, for I see your faith depends on its being invalid. And I would rather see you retain your faith than to believe in a scientific theory that will probably never be essential to your good. Blessings to you too.
 
QUOTE=LeafByNiggle;12285469]I can no longer continue trying to convince you of the validity of the TOE, for I see your faith depends on its being invalid. And I would rather see you retain your faith than to believe in a scientific theory that will probably never be essential to your good. Blessings to you too.

Thank you. I can’t tell you what I would believe if I accepted TOE. Now, I do have a problem with sub-human forms evolving into humans, but I could never be an atheist. I remember as a sophmore in HS, my friend and I both concluded the same thing. As he related on the way to school one morning, “If this stuff is true, there is no place for God.” “I have been thinking the exact same thing,” I replied. Until my dying day I will believe that there is an agenda behind the theory which succeeds much too often.:rolleyes: Rob
 
QUOTE=LeafByNiggle;12285469]Thank you. I can’t tell you what I would believe if I accepted TOE.
So your faith rests in the belief that the world was once a magical garden where there once lived a talking snake, dinosaurs breathed fire, and a tree whose fruit told one man and one woman it wasn’t good to run around naked? 🤷
 
So your faith rests in the belief that the world was once a magical garden where there once lived a talking snake, dinosaurs breathed fire, and a tree whose fruit told one man and one woman it wasn’t good to run around naked? 🤷
Now Wanderer, you should know that I believe that I think the Creation story is in part metaphorical, except of course for the fire breathing dragons, about which history clearly suggests that they burned down their own habitats, hastening their ultimate extinction. :bigyikes:
 
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