UK fast-food workers get US lesson in protesting against poverty wages

[TARRAT]

Present minimum wage levels must be pretty good if these minimum wage workers can fly all over the world to try to organize others. My job pays way over the minimum wage and I can’t afford to fly all over europe.

 

[JimmyG88]

Present minimum wage levels must be pretty good if these minimum wage workers can fly all over the world to try to organize others. My job pays way over the minimum wage and I can’t afford to fly all over europe.

I would suspect that a trade union paid or that she was supported in this project by a group of likeminded workers.

 

[ucfengr]

In the UK unions and others have calculated that minimum wage is £6.50 but a wage that would enable people to move out of poverty would be £7.45 and many good employers have signed up to pay the living wage.

“Living wage” and “living with dignity” seem to be two very different things. Setting that aside, 7.45 pounds (don’t have a pound key on my keyboard and am too lazy to look up the ASCII code) is equivalent to $11.70, or, based on a 40 hour work week, roughly $23,400/year (assuming 50 weeks of work per year). Now, the median US income for a family of 4 is $67,000/yr. How did you calculate the price of someone’s dignity to be so low?

 

[JimmyG88]

“Living wage” and “living with dignity” seem to be two very different things. Setting that aside, 7.45 pounds (don’t have a pound key on my keyboard and am too lazy to look up the ASCII code) is equivalent to $11.70, or, based on a 40 hour work week, roughly $23,400/year (assuming 50 weeks of work per year). Now, the median US income for a family of 4 is $67,000/yr. How did you calculate the price of someone’s dignity to be so low?

Perhaps I should have said I didn’t calculate it. For London the living wage rate is higher (not the national minimum wage interestingly). Your calculation is for a family of 4 with perhaps two adults working. And in UK the state pays a monthly sum to the mother for each child (apart from people earning over £41k per annum. The tax thresholds may also be different. We have free health care, four weeks paid holiday a year and there may be other differences. Having said that I am in NO WAY an apologist for low pay.

 

[madtom]

It is not “charity” when an employer pays a living wage, it is justice. It is injustice to pay less than a living wage.

what is an injustice is FORCING a private business to pay a minimum salary. No one argues against people needing a living wage. No one advocates corporate greed. The question we must ask is whether we have the right to force a business to pay a certain salary, and whether that even works to solve the problem you’re trying to solve. This is like another thread I’ve been reading about how one can be both a conservative and a Catholic. well, why do some people believe liberals and their policies have a monopoly on caring for the poor? I believe in no minimum wage not because I’m an uncaring capitalist. quite the contraryt, it’s because I believe minimum wages are unfair and only serve to perpetuate poverty. let market forces work. it’s better for everyone.

and here’s another point. my wife has a masters degree, years of experience, and works for a university. her salary comes out to about $19 an hour. so these fast food workers protesting for a $15 minimum wage believe that my wife’s job and all that it requires is only worth $4 more than a job that requires no experience and not even a high school diploma? give me a break. as I said, if every American gets their free education, works hard, and makes good choices in life, they are virtually gauaranteed, yes GAURANTEED, a middle class life. of course unforeseen things happen in life. good people get fired, injured, etc. which is why I am all for temporary safety nets like unemployment. but minimum wages are worthless.

 

[JimmyG88]

what is an injustice is FORCING a private business to pay a minimum salary. No one argues against people needing a living wage. No one advocates corporate greed. The question we must ask is whether we have the right to force a business to pay a certain salary, and whether that even works to solve the problem you’re trying to solve. This is like another thread I’ve been reading about how one can be both a conservative and a Catholic. well, why do some people believe liberals and their policies have a monopoly on caring for the poor? I believe in no minimum wage not because I’m an uncaring capitalist. quite the contraryt, it’s because I believe minimum wages are unfair and only serve to perpetuate poverty. let market forces work. it’s better for everyone.

and here’s another point. my wife has a masters degree, years of experience, and works for a university. her salary comes out to about $19 an hour. so these fast food workers protesting for a $15 minimum wage believe that my wife’s job and all that it requires is only worth $4 more than a job that requires no experience and not even a high school diploma? give me a break. as I said, if every American gets their free education, works hard, and makes good choices in life, they are virtually gauaranteed, yes GAURANTEED, a middle class life. of course unforeseen things happen in life. good people get fired, injured, etc. which is why I am all for temporary safety nets like unemployment. but minimum wages are worthless.

Time and time again some employers have proven that they cannot be trusted to tray employees correctly which is why legislation is necessary. As for the comparative ‘value’ of work is the suggestion that the work performed by someone highly educated is worth more than than so called ‘unskilled’ work. The relentlessness of some jobs alone should have a financial reward

 

[JimmyG88]

what is an injustice is FORCING a private business to pay a minimum salary. No one argues against people needing a living wage. No one advocates corporate greed. The question we must ask is whether we have the right to force a business to pay a certain salary, and whether that even works to solve the problem you’re trying to solve. This is like another thread I’ve been reading about how one can be both a conservative and a Catholic. well, why do some people believe liberals and their policies have a monopoly on caring for the poor? I believe in no minimum wage not because I’m an uncaring capitalist. quite the contraryt, it’s because I believe minimum wages are unfair and only serve to perpetuate poverty. let market forces work. it’s better for everyone.

and here’s another point. my wife has a masters degree, years of experience, and works for a university. her salary comes out to about $19 an hour. so these fast food workers protesting for a $15 minimum wage believe that my wife’s job and all that it requires is only worth $4 more than a job that requires no experience and not even a high school diploma? give me a break. as I said, if every American gets their free education, works hard, and makes good choices in life, they are virtually gauaranteed, yes GAURANTEED, a middle class life. of course unforeseen things happen in life. good people get fired, injured, etc. which is why I am all for temporary safety nets like unemployment. but minimum wages are worthless.

I am also surprised that a society that is supposed to be egalitarian (theoretically) is so class conscious. If EVERYONE is Middle Class with a PhD who is going to flip the burgers,unblock your sewers and serve your drinks.

 

[Suudy]

Time and time again some employers have proven that they cannot be trusted to tray employees correctly which is why legislation is necessary. As for the comparative ‘value’ of work is the suggestion that the work performed by someone highly educated is worth more than than so called ‘unskilled’ work. The relentlessness of some jobs alone should have a financial reward

If only 4% of current workers make the minimum wage, and of those workers few are primary earners, it seem sot me that most employers are indeed treating their employees fairly. Indeed, it seems that such legislation is unnecessary since very few are trying to support a family on the minimum wage.

And that doesn’t even take into account the value of in-kind benefits many receive (such as SNAP, housing assistance, Medicaid, etc).

Further, very few who start at the minimum wage stay there.

epionline.org/studies/r16/

From that article:
Very few workers remain at the minimum wage over the long run. Of the youngest most inexperienced workers, age 16-18, 11.6% earn the minimum wage. As workers age, however, much lower percentages are found at the minimum — a low of 0.7% earn the minimum at age 46-55. The percentage of those earning the minimum wage also declines as workers achieve higher levels of education. For those who have not finished high school, 6.2% earn the minimum wage. Only 1.5% of those who finish high school have the same level of pay. As expected, age and experience reduce the share of those earning the minimum wage regardless of educational level. Only 0.6% of high school graduates, for instance, earn the minimum wage between the ages of 46 and 55. (The percentages tend to rise as workers enter retirement years, likely reflecting changing work incentives.)

 

[madtom]

Time and time again some employers have proven that they cannot be trusted to tray employees correctly which is why legislation is necessary. As for the comparative ‘value’ of work is the suggestion that the work performed by someone highly educated is worth more than than so called ‘unskilled’ work. The relentlessness of some jobs alone should have a financial reward

It’s not just the work itself, even though yes, of course some work is worth more than other work. Is all work equal now too? It’s the time and investment people put into gaining the education and experience to attain a higher salary. If you can make $15 an hour working at McDonald’s, how will that motivate inner city kids to stay in school? It amazes me how people just refuse to consider the unintended consequences of something just because on the surface it seems like a good idea.

and of course some companies are greedy and cannot be trusted to pay a fair wage. luckily we live in an age of social media where companies can easily (and do) get outed and boycotted. public opinion trumps intrusive government every time. obamacare aside, do you think companies provide benefits and vacation time to employees out of the goodness of their heart? no, they do it because it is proven that happy and motivated employees are good for business.

 

[madtom]

I am also surprised that a society that is supposed to be egalitarian (theoretically) is so class conscious. If EVERYONE is Middle Class with a PhD who is going to flip the burgers,unblock your sewers and serve your drinks.

there is no expectation that everyone will be middle class. every society needs an “underclass.” it’s an unfortunate reality, because as you say, someone’s got to flip those burgers. however, that so-called unerclass need not be people raising a family. that work can be reserved for teenagers and young adults just starting out. even retirees just looking to pass the time. as for serving drinks and unblocking sewers, last I checked many waitresses and plumbers make very good livings, as they should. I always argue that college isn’t for everyone and that we should stop pushing it as the only option to become successful. learning a trade is often times much more valuable than college.

Also, I agree am with you regarding “class.” I don’t even like talking about class because we should be a classless society. In fact, I find it personally demeaning and patronizing every time I hear some rich politician going on and on about he fights for the middle class. I’m only using those terms to help make my point, not because I believe some people are better than others because they are in a higher class.

 

[madtom]

If only 4% of current workers make the minimum wage, and of those workers few are primary earners, it seem sot me that most employers are indeed treating their employees fairly. Indeed, it seems that such legislation is unnecessary since very few are trying to support a family on the minimum wage.

And that doesn’t even take into account the value of in-kind benefits many receive (such as SNAP, housing assistance, Medicaid, etc).

Further, very few who start at the minimum wage stay there.

epionline.org/studies/r16/

From that article:
Very few workers remain at the minimum wage over the long run. Of the youngest most inexperienced workers, age 16-18, 11.6% earn the minimum wage. As workers age, however, much lower percentages are found at the minimum — a low of 0.7% earn the minimum at age 46-55. The percentage of those earning the minimum wage also declines as workers achieve higher levels of education. For those who have not finished high school, 6.2% earn the minimum wage. Only 1.5% of those who finish high school have the same level of pay. As expected, age and experience reduce the share of those earning the minimum wage regardless of educational level. Only 0.6% of high school graduates, for instance, earn the minimum wage between the ages of 46 and 55. (The percentages tend to rise as workers enter retirement years, likely reflecting changing work incentives.)

YES

 

[JimmyG88]

there is no expectation that everyone will be middle class. every society needs an “underclass.” it’s an unfortunate reality, because as you say, someone’s got to flip those burgers. however, that so-called unerclass need not be people raising a family. that work can be reserved for teenagers and young adults just starting out. even retirees just looking to pass the time. as for serving drinks and unblocking sewers, last I checked many waitresses and plumbers make very good livings, as they should. I always argue that college isn’t for everyone and that we should stop pushing it as the only option to become successful. learning a trade is often times much more valuable than college.

Also, I agree am with you regarding “class.” I don’t even like talking about class because we should be a classless society. In fact, I find it personally demeaning and patronizing every time I hear some rich politician going on and on about he fights for the middle class. I’m only using those terms to help make my point, not because I believe some people are better than others because they are in a higher class.

An ‘underclass’ this gets worse

 

[madtom]

An ‘underclass’ this gets worse

you’re just showing that you cannot comprehend (or choose to not comprehend) what people write by singling out that one word I used. And I knew you wouldn’t like that word, which is why I used it!
come on, read all of what I said and take it in its proper context.

 

[JimmyG88]

you’re just showing that you cannot comprehend (or choose to not comprehend) what people write by singling out that one word I used. And I knew you wouldn’t like that word, which is why I used it!
come on, read all of what I said and take it in its proper context.

I see. You choose your vocabulary in order to antagonise. We come from different perspectives and cultures. I believe that all work is of equal value, and I am happy to live in a country where the poorest are supported by the state as of right. I do however object to employers shirking their duty to pay workers justly and leaving the state to pick up the bill

 

[madtom]

I see. You choose your vocabulary in order to antagonise. We come from different perspectives and cultures. I believe that all work is of equal value, and I am happy to live in a country where the poorest are supported by the state as of right. I do however object to employers shirking their duty to pay workers justly and leaving the state to pick up the bill

no, I wouldn’t say to antagonise. maybe to provoke a bit!
I understand different cultures and perspectives, though I’m not quite sure I understand how all work can be seen to have equal value. is flipping burgers as valuable as a doctor who saves lives? both are needed and both are important, and I don’t look down on anyone who works hard no matter what they do, but that doesn’t mean they are equal. Anyway, I wouldn’t try to turn Wales into America. perhaps you might think differently, however, if you lived in America for a while and began to witness the rampant abuse of the welfare state. I would also like to add, since this is a Catholic forum, that we all have a duty to help those in need, and any of us in a position of power over employees also have a duty to pay workers justly. but that is our individual duty to live Christlike lives. It should not be the government’s place to force business owners to fulfill that duty,

 

[madtom]

I am happy to live in a country where the poorest are supported by the state as of right.

please watch the following very short video for some perspective:

youtube.com/watch?v=7UREepszk7I

this is not a rare case. this is common. note the tattoos, manicured cails, jewelry, smartphone, etc. how does she have all this and still need government assistance? I don’t even blame the girl. I blame the system that motivaes her to stay on welfare rather than standing on her own two feet. Maybe you don’t have this problem where you are from, but this is why I am against things like welfare and minimum wages…because they actually end up hurting the poor, not helping them.

 

[JimmyG88]

please watch the following very short video for some perspective:

youtube.com/watch?v=7UREepszk7I

this is not a rare case. this is common. note the tattoos, manicured cails, jewelry, smartphone, etc. how does she have all this and still need government assistance? I don’t even blame the girl. I blame the system that motivaes her to stay on welfare rather than standing on her own two feet. Maybe you don’t have this problem where you are from, but this is why I am against things like welfare and minimum wages…because they actually end up hurting the poor, not helping them.

Do you have any of the CEOs of Google, Starbucks and Apple not paying any tax?

 

[estesbob]

Greedy employers regard the minimum wage as a target rather than a starting point. If a business cannot afford to pay workers a wage that enables them to live with dignity, then that business is not viable. To have a viable business you need to make a proft and pay a fair wage.

So how much do you pay your employees?

 

[JimmyG88]

So how much do you pay your employees?

I am an employee

 

[madtom]

Do you have any of the CEOs of Google, Starbucks and Apple not paying any tax?

I’m sure they all pay some taxes. I’m sure they also use the system to avoid paying as much taxes as they can. I’m not sure how that’s relevant though. As I said in another post, “The current inequities of corporate crony-capitalist America are another issue and really irrelevant to the minimum wage debate. Forcing a higher minimum wage will hurt local business just trying to scrape by, while corporate conglomerates will just fire people.”