Ukraine and the Doctrine of Just War

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Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.
 
fnr said:
Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.
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1)the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2)all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3)there must be serious prospects of success;
4)the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

I am not sure about #1
I do not believe #2 or #4 justify war at this point.

In the near future things may change, but at this point I do not believe war is justified.
 
It might depend on the feasibility of if the war would turn nuclear.

Frankly, I’m surprised that Putin is going into a country that has nearly 50 million people. The Ukraine is not Georgia.

The key question in this thread though is rather moot, even though it’s interesting.

The West and the rest of the world do not have the interest nor the stomach (in almost all cases, they don’t even have the capability) to fight Russia.
 
The Just War doctrine only applies to war. This is not a war or anything close. You cannot apply the just war doctrine to the morality of American Military Bases in Germany, or a non combat situation.
 
No it absolutely would not. Especially considering Russia has not invaded the Ukraine.

If America attacked Russia, it would be World War 3.
 
Honestly, the amount of hysteria and russiophobia that is spreading is truly frightening.
 
“1)the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2)all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3)there must be serious prospects of success;
4)the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.”

Part 1: no. There is no way of determining at this point.

Part 2: no, as peaceful means of resolving the crisis have yet to be tried.

Part 3: Almost certainly not, given that,

Part 4: Because military intervention by the USA against Russia would almost certainly lead to a general European or world war, Part 4 cannot be met.

ICXC NIKA
 
At this point, it is too soon to tell. The Russians have no business sending in troops to Ukraine but there is still a good chance it can be resolved peacefully. Pray, pray, pray.
 
I guess my thinking here is evolving quickly. I think Putin is acting as he is because he knows that non one will oppose him. He’s said that he doesn’t want to annex Ukraine to Russia, and now is saying that the Ukrainian parliament is legitimate, but the removal of Yanukovich wasn’t. So it looks like Putin is pushing for the old status quo: Ukraine as a buffer state.

It’s about 8 hours driving from the Ukranian border to Moscow across flat terrain. That and the Russian naval base at Sevastopol make holding the Ukraine in Russian orbit of critical strategic importance. I think Putin realizes that the West also understands these facts.

There are hypothetical military steps that the US could take, but none of them assure a peaceful outcome. The US Navy’s Sixth Fleet is based around Naples, Italy, an is a dangerous weapon. Getting it to the Black Sea would mean transiting the Bosphorus, which Turkey probably wouldn’t welcome. Even if the fleet could enter the Black Sea and anchor outside Odessa, it would put the US Navy less than 200 miles from Sevastopol and Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Not only that, it would be within easy striking distance of Moscow by cruise missile or other means. That situation would probably put nuclear strikes on the table for Moscow, as a deterrent to a US naval strike on Moscow. It would be the closest we have come to worldwide calamity, and I don’t think anyone wants that.

I think Putin understands these factors. He is now going out of his way to assure the world that he’s not a conqueror. He stresses that a single shot has not been fired. I think he is looking for a face-saving way out for all parties, and I would bet that the outcome of this situation involves the return of Yanukovich or the signing of an economic pact between Russia and the Ukranian parliament. In all the outcomes, Russia keeps its base at Sevastopol.

The current situation makes it obvious that there is no case under just war doctrine to intervene militarily.
 
SMA_12 said:
“Phobia” I believe you meant to say… “Philia” actually means love/attraction hehe 😃 I haven’t seen much of that!
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There are actually quite a few posters here who believe that Putin is a protector of traditional Christianity and values, because of his statements and actions opposing homosexuality and (perhaps?) gay marriage.
 
tomarin said:
There are actually quite a few posters here who believe that Putin is a protector of traditional Christianity and values, because of his statements and actions opposing homosexuality and (perhaps?) gay marriage.
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Hmm hadn’t seen that on here. Maybe it wasn’t a typo after all. Whoops…
 
**Just cause: **The reason for going to war needs to be just and cannot therefore be solely for recapturing things taken or punishing people who have done wrong; innocent life must be in imminent danger and intervention must be to protect life. A contemporary view of just cause was expressed in 1993 when the US Catholic Conference said: “Force may be used only to correct a grave, public evil, i.e., aggression or massive violation of the basic human rights of whole populations.”

**Comparative justice: **While there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to overcome the presumption against the use of force, the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other.

**Legitimate authority: **Only duly constituted public authorities may wage war.

**Right intention: **Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose—correcting a suffered wrong is considered a right intention, while material gain or maintaining economies is not.

**Probability of success: **Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success;

**Last resort: **Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted or are clearly not practical. It may be clear that the other side is using negotiations as a delaying tactic and will not make meaningful concessions.

**Proportionality: **The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms. This principle is also known as the principle of macro-proportionality, so as to distinguish it from the jus in bello principle of proportionality.
In modern terms, just war is waged in terms of self-defense, or in defense of another (with sufficient evidence).

Of course Putin is wrong. So far, it has been a peaceful invasion. No one killed. Diplomacy and economic efforts have hardly had a chance to be employed. The Russian military is roughly 5 times larger than the Ukraine military, so if there is to be a shooting war, Ukraine will need allies.

We have seen that other countries have little to no interest in fielding a fighting force for the sake of others. Our military is tired from Middle East fighting and most Americans do not see that it is our job, yet again, to go to strange places and sort it out. And our government is working to reduce the size of military yet again.

So, unless there is a huge turn around in American sentiment and government leadership, we have not, and will not, meet the criteria to go to war.

Swallow hard and watch a good people be forced back under the boot of Russia.

Meanwhile we all need to pray long and hard for PEACE. Ash Wednesday is tomorrow and Lent begins. What shall we do?
 
“Swallow hard and watch a good people be forced back under the boot of Russia.”

No one wants that.

But no one ever named the USA as the world’s guardian angel, either. And when we have tried to act as such, we ended up vilified by those we tried to protect.

We cannot humanly or economically sustain another foreign war. Enough is enough!!!

“Meanwhile we all need to pray long and hard for PEACE.”

👍:thumbsup

You cannot spell **penance **without peace!

ICXC NIKA
 
fnr said:
Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.
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May I politely point out that Lebensraum means living room. Germany was overpopulated. Secondly, Hitler saw Russia, even as a soldier in World War I, as a powerful enemy.

Regarding the Ukraine, the issues are complex. First, the Crimean peninsula is mostly pro-Russian and Russian speaking. They view Russia as their friendly neighbor and protector in this case. The current uncertainty of the leadership of the Ukraine and their inability to sit down and deal with all issues fairly has led to this point. Russia has nothing to gain by declaring war on anybody. And interim government government or not, if the people don’t support whoever then this will continue.

War is always the last result. This is partly about money. And this is partly about not listening to the people. The rest appears to be a power-play by one group to get their man in as Prime Minister. Closer ties to the EU or Russia? Who’s going to give them the better deal?

Russia does not want to be seen as the bad guy in this, so it is up to the Ukrainian people now. Attacking their own police or starting riots will not save them. There may be civil war, at which point, one side will choose. In the meantime, just like the United States, Russia has certain interests in the Ukraine. Everyone wants to make a buck and a civil war will only lead to useless loss of life, and loss of business, but hey, it’s their country.

I think the US and UK are not being the good guys here either. The US talks about national sovereignty but will invade whoever whenever its “interests” are threatened, not just its security.

Just war does not apply here. Either the Ukrainians, who are likely being influenced by outside forces as well, will die until they want to stop or Russia will move in to Crimea and provide military support for the side it chooses to support. Based on history, for Russian troops to invade the Ukraine, again, will mean the Ukraine automatically loses. The most likely scenario as of this point, is that Russian ground troops will stay at the edge of the Ukraine and its air force will bomb entire sections of the country occupied by the “opposition,” even if that means leveling hundreds of square miles. Russia will then install whoever they want to rubber stamp deals made in Moscow. I sure don’t want to see that happen and I’m sure most of the rest of the world doesn’t either.

Peace, I pray,

Ed
 
John_Lazarus said:
As is the amount of Putin-philia.
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Bravo for saying this, John. I’m honestly clapping as I type this.

I fail to comprehend the fascination some of us Catholics have with Petain-worship, Franco-latry. St. Salazar and now Putin-philia. Okay, they’re all strong “manly” leaders who don’t like sexual immorality - but if that’s our criterion, why don’t we add Islamic leaders to our list?

I agree that Obama is a lousy president (though I would readily swap him for Modi or Rahul Gandhi :p). But endorsing crypto- (or not-so-crypto-) Fascist leaders simply because they aren’t him is a case of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

And what about the Ukrainian Catholics whom Putin’s puppet leader tried to suppress?
 
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