Ukraine and the Doctrine of Just War

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I’m thinking now you’re joking. Sorry. For a minute there I actually thought someone could know that little of history. Once you reached absurdity I realized it was a joke.What a relief!
With all due respect your own knowledge of history seems rather limited.
You have not in any of your posts pointed out one factual inaccuracy. You have suggested that documented historical facts did not happen.
Seems you want to distil history.
 
You didn’t cite three “invasions of Russia” by the West in the last century so why did you offer it? It’s silly.No such “invasions” occurred. In one you did cite, Germany, the US and Britain were Russia’s (using Russia for Soviet Union where applicable) allies. In fact the US and Russia were allies in the two world wars, although in the first Russia withdrew as Marxism lead to the upheaval of its society and political structure.

Your statements regarding JFK are simply not true history. For one, numerous American Presidents have engaged in relations and rapprochement with Russia. FDR, for example, and many members of his administration, according to some accounts, were sympathetic to Communists. There is no doubt FDR sat down with Stalin as an equal at Yalta. Likewise Nixon, Carter and Reagan made a variety of serious attempts at normal relations with the Soviet Union. As to JFK, his relations with Khrushchev are a matter of history and were by no means normal ( cfr the first meeting between the two, cfr the Cuban Missile Crisis, cfr Cuba and the Bay of Pigs).

There is no doubt that in the aftermath of WWII, while the US engaged in the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe, Stalin built a wall to partition Germany, a symbol of what came to be referred to as “the Iron Curtain.” If you wish to date the beginning of the Cold War, this might be a good place to mark it, and if not there, then perhaps Sputnik where Khrushchev tried to assert dominance in space, launched the “space race” and had children all over this country learning to hide beneath their desks in the event of a nuclear attack from Russia. This period was highlighted by Khrushchev’s challenge to the US, “We will bury you.” Your assertion the missiles in Turkey started the cold war kind of ignores the whole history of Communism in Russia and deserves a face palm.

You cannot seriously speak sympathetically of Stalin. Even if you chose to overlook the purge (murder) of members of his administration and his own family, you cannot overlook his murder of at least as many millions of his countrymen as Hitler murdered of his. Likewise, you cannot forget to mention that through most of the last century Russia became the Soviet Union, a Marxist state. You may need to look up Dialectic Materialism to understand the implications of Marxism and why it is not only offensive to the free world but also to the Church. It might be enough to say, however, that the Dialectic presumes conquest by the Marxist state. It is aggressive, it believes, as a matter of scientific fact and the whole point of the Marxist state is to be a place holder until the world succumbs.

Now I hate long responses. I don’t object to other people’s perspectives, but you can’t distill history to the extent you have and make it history at all. It becomes fiction.
I have repeatedly stated that I prayed considerably for the conversion of Soviet Russia. I am well aware of the evils of communism and Stalin. We are discussing the feeling in modern Russia a Christian country which is suspicious with good reason of western hypocrisy and ambitions in a strategic part of the world on Russia’s borders. I have explained the reasons for her suspicions based on past events (all of which are historically accurate) yet you have gone off on some sanctimonious rant about how I do not understand the evils of Marxism. I am sorry but I am actually quiet annoyed by your tone and your comments. Do you really believe the west which at present supports sodomy and abortion as rights is not playing a duplicitous game in the region.
 
I am sorry but what do you call the German Invasion of Russia in WWI, The Landing of British Troops in Russia in 1919 and Operation Barbarossa if not invasions?
Where have I ever spoken sympathetically of Stalin?
Russia existed long before Communism and as you can see she will exist for a long while yet as a Christian country. She has reason to doubt the integrity of the west.
As for the origins of the Cold War I think you are quite incorrect.
There is little doubt that Munich was an attempt by the wets to turn German aggression against the USSR. Furthermore after the war Stalin are no real attempt to help the communist in Greece as he and FDR and Churchill and already divided the wold up into spheres of influence, It was US intransigence and insistence on building up the defeated aggressor Germany that contributed greatly to the Cold War. You can argue about perspective but my facts are actually correct despite what you seem to think.
As to the “invasions by the west” let’s be a little more precise. Including the invasions of Russia by Germany as “the west” is disingenuous. It proves nothing. The “west” opposed the “west” in both instances. “My” facts would say that FDR and Churchill did not occupy Germany after WWII; Stalin did and partitioned it. I guess in someone’s reality the Marshall Plan and a massive airlift to Berlin is “building up the aggressor” but I would think Stalin’s alternative that plunged Berlin not to mention the Soviet Union into abject and degenerate poverty for half a century would clearly be the wrong approach.

Again, you cannot so blithely dismiss nearly a century of Marxism in the Soviet Union from the discussion and make any sense as to the actions of the US (even the actions of Hitler for that matter) or the cold war. This is precisely why your “facts” sound insensible. To assert now that Russia is magically a “Christian country” is to beg the question. What makes it so? The Russian Orthodox Church which was wholly co-opted under the Communists? No one knows if Russia is a Christian country at this point, and certainly many speculate that Putin in his world politics and his local aggression has not abandoned the system under which he cut his teeth.

If I had one criticism of the west, it would be that after the wall fell and the Soviet Union dissolved, the US did not do more to introduce capitalism to the region and do more to economically prop up what became a rotten and decayed society. It was an opportunity missed, and I fear as many do that missing it created a vacuum into which the likes of Putin have crawled.
 
Well the west did it’s best to introduce a destructive form of capitalism in Russia in 1990. They treated it the same way they treat most third world countries and created this disparity by basically stripping all the assists and introducing uncontrolled privatisation. So now the West is reaping the benefit of their greed and rapaciousness. A distrustful Russia which is weakened but still relatively powerful.

Russia had returned to God. The West has abandoned God. Our Lady of Fatima promised if we prayed then Russia would come bad to God. We did that, do your doubt our Lady’s word?

Russia has historical strategic needs in the area which predate Communism. Germany is historically and culturally part of the west and the fact that she was rehabilitated by the US after the war is further concern for the Russians. The ongoing attempts to extend Nato ever eastward and the attempts to put missiles ever closer to Russia are acts of aggression by the west by and large. This is a continuation of western Cold War policies.
 
Russia had returned to God. The West has abandoned God. Our Lady of Fatima promised if we prayed then Russia would come bad to God. We did that, do your doubt our Lady’s word?
Sorry for being so blunt, but the spectacle of watching someone attempt to sanctify Russian imperialism is truly nauseating.

Why don’t you ask a Ukrainian or Pole what they think of your theory about the Blessed Mother’s favor towards Russia’s embrace of its neighbors?
 
Sorry for being so blunt, but the spectacle of watching someone attempt to sanctify Russian imperialism is truly nauseating.

Why don’t you ask a Ukrainian or Pole what they think of your theory about the Blessed Mother’s favor towards Russia’s embrace of its neighbors?
I for one have never shared in the wholeheaded admiration for Putinist Russia that some Catholics seem to have (which stems, IMNAAHO, from the mistaken belief that socio-sexual conservatism is the Gospel).

What I still say, and to my American-based mind is most important, is that the Ukrainian conflict is not in any way our fight.

We need to dust off our collective hands, inhale deeply, and back out of the ring. We can’t afford anything else.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Russia had returned to God. The West has abandoned God. Our Lady of Fatima promised if we prayed then Russia would come bad to God. We did that, do your doubt our Lady’s word?
OK, so, are you saying that, since “Russia had returned to God”, individual Russians or Russian government can do no wrong…? I’d say this would contradict your other statement:
Well the west did it’s best to introduce a destructive form of capitalism in Russia in 1990. They treated it the same way they treat most third world countries and created this disparity by basically stripping all the assists and introducing uncontrolled privatisation. So now the West is reaping the benefit of their greed and rapaciousness. A distrustful Russia which is weakened but still relatively powerful.
For if Russia had “a destructive form of capitalism”, the government and the people haven’t been sinless…

Of course, the return to God in this case only means the abandonment of atheism as a “state church”. A big change for the better, but definitely not something that makes everything Russia does morally right…
Russia has historical strategic needs in the area which predate Communism.
Whenever I hear such statements, I want to ask: “Would you care to elaborate…?”… Hardly anyone is explaining what those “strategic needs” or “interests” actually are…
Germany is historically and culturally part of the west and the fact that she was rehabilitated by the US after the war is further concern for the Russians. The ongoing attempts to extend Nato ever eastward and the attempts to put missiles ever closer to Russia are acts of aggression by the west by and large. This is a continuation of western Cold War policies.
OK, so you are saying that 1) Germany did something wrong in the past and it is morally wrong to trust it ever since, and 2) Russia did something wrong in the past and it is morally wrong not to trust it… That does not look very consistent… Especially given that Germany is relatively friendly to Russia…
 
The Ukrainian people are fiercely independent and will remain so. However, this recent crisis has not affected Wall Street, so everything appears to be going according to plan.
…so if I kill the president of the Ukraine, Hope Marie Carlton will finally love me?

Cool. I know what to do now. 🙂
 
Russia had returned to God. The West has abandoned God. Our Lady of Fatima promised if we prayed then Russia would come bad to God. We did that, do your doubt our Lady’s word?
I do not doubt Our Lady rather your rendition of her intentions, nor do I pretend to have some special access to her thoughts on the matter. The blessed event to which you refer was not marked on a calendar. The mere fact that we prayed does not mean it happens on our schedule, in the manner we envision.

No one could credibly contend at this point that Russia has returned to its historic Christianity. Nor can it be shown yet that even the population has abandoned its romance with Communism and no longer desires the recreation of the Soviet Union. Putin’s actions would lead to the other conclusion.

I am not sure what difference it makes at all classifying a country as a “Christian nation” or what it has to do with anything. I literally doubt such a thing exists or matters anymore. I would agree here with Pope Benedict who wrote that whenever the Church has ventured into the world of statecraft it has proven to be unfortunate. That is not what the Church is about in my opinion. All nations, Christian or otherwise, will decay and fall. It is we individuals who are eternal.
 
I’ve always had a problem with people who try to put rules on War.

To me, “war” is defined as the absence of rules.

The “best” wars are the ones that are short and minimizes the suffering of all involved.

Fighting a war by the rules drags it out.

The quest of rules is always to make the war “fair”.

A “fair” war is a stalemate where never side can get a leg up on the other. It just drags the misery and suffering out.
 
To me, “war” is defined as the absence of rules.
Perhaps on the battlefield in the “fog” of war that’s true but waging war is more than fighting battles, and a civilized society needs to have rules about how to humanely treat prisoners of war and to what extent punishment can be dealt out to civilian populations in order to break their morale, and so it’s natural that those subjects are zones of lively debate and moral investigation.
 
Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.
Maybe we should invade china instead to prevent 14+ million abortions per year.

Don’t compare Hitler and Putin.

Russia hasn’t invaded Ukraine.

America have no moral high ground to lecture people on invading nations.

You can’t attack a nation because you think they might do something in the future, on that basis the world should invade America now because they will invade another country in the future.

Shouldn’t the Crimeans be allowed to choose their future in the same way as the Kosovans did?
 
Perhaps on the battlefield in the “fog” of war that’s true but waging war is more than fighting battles, and a civilized society needs to have rules about how to humanely treat prisoners of war and to what extent punishment can be dealt out to civilian populations in order to break their morale, and so it’s natural that those subjects are zones of lively debate and moral investigation.
Those who make war with slavish devotion to the rules are doomed to fail.
-US Grant

The enemy will figure out what your rule book is and use it against it.

It didn’t take al Queda long to begin arming school children and shooting at US troops from hospitals and mosques - all because they knew they could start a pointless debate amongst US activists and politicians.

Their idea worked.
 
Maybe we should invade china instead to prevent 14+ million abortions per year.
OK, does it mean that you do not like the Just War Doctrine, or does it mean something else…?
Don’t compare Hitler and Putin.
Why? Why is it wrong to compare Putin to Hitler, but not wrong to compare him with Bush (as you seem to be doing later)…?
Russia hasn’t invaded Ukraine.
So, how would you describe what happened?
America have no moral high ground to lecture people on invading nations.
Why?

I’d say you should include full arguments here - it’s the “Philosophy” subforum, after all… 🙂
 
There is a plank in the USA’s eye. Indeed in the wests eye. Russia will do as it pleases and if the USA or the west driven by pride chooses to take the tone that it knows better than russia they will be dragged into a war. We are not prepared for this. Russia has lead better recently than the USA. It was Russia that prevented the USA from invading a country just a few short months ago. When we recognize that we are in peril, when we repent and try to change our direction of the culture of death as Russia is attempting to do, then we can talk of “Just War” or not. Until then we will just have to marry homosexuals, kill babies, and still fire our guns in Iraq and Afganistan.:rolleyes:
 
There is a plank in the USA’s eye. Indeed in the wests eye. Russia will do as it pleases and if the USA or the west driven by pride chooses to take the tone that it knows better than russia they will be dragged into a war. We are not prepared for this. Russia has lead better recently than the USA. It was Russia that prevented the USA from invading a country just a few short months ago. When we recognize that we are in peril, when we repent and try to change our direction of the culture of death as Russia is attempting to do, then we can talk of “Just War” or not. Until then we will just have to marry homosexuals, kill babies, and still fire our guns in Iraq and Afganistan.:rolleyes:
You’re drawing a moral equivalent between the US and Russia?

Really?

In WW2 the Germany invaded several different countries.
But so did the US.
In fact, the US invaded a lot of the same nations Germany did: Greece, France, Belgium, Brussels, Austria.

So is the US just like Nazi Germany right?
 
You’re drawing a moral equivalent between the US and Russia?

Really?

In WW2 the Germany invaded several different countries.
But so did the US.
In fact, the US invaded a lot of the same nations Germany did: Greece, France, Belgium, Brussels, Austria.

So is the US just like Nazi Germany right?
Yes, really. And this is not WW2. But nice job bringing the Nazis into it.👍

The fact is that Russia has the moral high ground and the leadership ability in the world right now. No matter what james bond movies say. No matter what the western media says. Our view of history is quite different from the russians. In fact, most people know very little of russian history or culture.

I believe in the power of prayer. I also believe that Russia is reaping the benefits of Our Lady and the consecration to Russia. I believe that russia is converting and that we are falling away. It seems pretty obvious.

Does that mean Russia can invade whom it pleases? Probably not. But we have lost the credibility and frankly the power to say or do anything to stop them.

US words got us into a scenario that we almost had to invade syria. Russia prevented that. US foreign policy has lost it’s edge. We are not leading from the front anymore. Plus, we have a leader who is less than exited to even want any of this conflict. Not to mention our preoccupation with sodomy and baby killing at the moment. I’d say the closest to Nazi Germany right now would be the US.🤷
 
There is a plank in the USA’s eye. Indeed in the wests eye. Russia will do as it pleases and if the USA or the west driven by pride chooses to take the tone that it knows better than russia they will be dragged into a war. We are not prepared for this. Russia has lead better recently than the USA. It was Russia that prevented the USA from invading a country just a few short months ago. When we recognize that we are in peril, when we repent and try to change our direction of the culture of death as Russia is attempting to do, then we can talk of “Just War” or not. Until then we will just have to marry homosexuals, kill babies, and still fire our guns in Iraq and Afganistan.:rolleyes:
Shouldn’t it be “murder babies”, not merely “kill babies”…? By itself, killing is not necessarily wrong, and unjust (wrong) killing can be called “murder”.

Just like that, “invading another country” or “firing guns” is not necessarily wrong. It is wrong when it is done unjustly. And it is at least arguable that invasions that USA did (or “almost did”) were more just than the ones that Russia did.

And concerning your claim that Russia is fighting the culture of death… What does it have to do with the question at hand? After all, doing something good doesn’t make everything one does good. Otherwise we wouldn’t need confessionals…
 
Yes, really. And this is not WW2. But nice job bringing the Nazis into it.👍

I’d say the closest to Nazi Germany right now would be the US.🤷
So you agree that the US is no different than Nazi Germany?
So you agree that the US is just as bad as a nation that gassed millions of its own people?
So you agree that the US is happily starving millions of people inside its own borders?

You think the US has a secret police force rounding people up in the middle of the night?
You think the US has a draconian censorship board cracking down on media outlets that don’t tow the government line?
You think that US leaders are condemning homosexuality and rounding up homosexuals?

You really think that?

If you can really draw such moral comparisons, why on EARTH are you Catholic?

I’m not sad that there are bad people out there doing bad things. I’m sad that there are good people who use lame moral equivalents and pathetic excuses as a cover not to do anything to stop the bad guys.

What Christian thinker said “The hottest spots in Hell are reserved for the good men who saw evil being perpetrated but did nothing.”
 
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