Ukraine and the Doctrine of Just War

[Tzimisce]

The Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.
It doesn’t have armed men crossing into Russia with the intent of harming Russian citizens.
Russian citizens in the Ukraine are not fearing for their lives.

There’s NO REASON for Russia to invade. Ukraine barely has a military!

That said: the US promised to protect the Ukraine. Obama himself reaffirmed that promise in 2009.

The Ukraine disarmed its military because of that promise.

The United States is DOING WRONG by the Ukraine.

Japan, Poland, Estonia, South Korea, Taiwan, The Philippines - they all need to be looking over their shoulders - because the promise the US made to protect these people is also bogus.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

So you agree that the US is no different than Nazi Germany?
So you agree that the US is just as bad as a nation that gassed millions of its own people?
So you agree that the US is happily starving millions of people inside its own borders?

You think the US has a secret police force rounding people up in the middle of the night?
You think the US has a draconian censorship board cracking down on media outlets that don’t tow the government line?
You think that US leaders are condemning homosexuality and rounding up homosexuals?

You really think that?

If you can really draw such moral comparisons, why on EARTH are you Catholic?

I’m not sad that there are bad people out there doing bad things. I’m sad that there are good people who use lame moral equivalents and pathetic excuses as a cover not to do anything to stop the bad guys.

What Christian thinker said “The hottest spots in Hell are reserved for the good men who saw evil being perpetrated but did nothing.”

If I did believe that your question should be why on earth am I American, not why am I Catholic!

But:

1. No

1. Maybe Millions of innocent babies have been murdered. Way more than Nazi Germany ever killed.

1. No
2. No, but wait a bit.
3. YUP BINGO!
4. Of course not, we do the opposite. We don’t round them up, we encourage sodomy and evil actions.

If you would step out and look at the situation without bias you can see that Russia is not flexing any more muscle than the US has been for decades with foreign policy. And in the real of history, well the US fought and killed it’s own citizens to keep the Union together.

 

[Tzimisce]

If you would step out and look at the situation without bias you can see that Russia is not flexing any more muscle than the US has been for decades with foreign policy. And in the real of history, well the US fought and killed it’s own citizens to keep the Union together.

And if you’d let go of your pompous arrogance for a second, you’d listen to me. (Or at least read my second post.)

If you’re going to hide behind moral equivalences, then why hold any standards at all?

Don’t the Catholics teach that breaking one commandment is breaking them all?
Why stop a pedophile? I’m sure you’ve had impure sexual thoughts.
Why stop a murderer? I’m sure you’ve hated someone at some point.

And why are you arguing with me, since my opinion is just as uninformed as yours?

I’m savoring all the ironies here: The pagan is standing up for morality while the good little Catholic won’t?
How you make your “everything’s just fine” attitude sound like the moral high ground.

Maybe you should become a pagan. The Catholic church really doesn’t have any legs to stand on does it? How many atrocities have been committed in the name of Catholicism? Catholics have invaded countries for no reason, haven’t they? Catholics have slaughtered innocent people.

But a lot of good things have been done in name of Catholicism too right? And the Church shouldn’t give up trying to do good things just because of some bad history, right?

So is it possible that the US can still good things too? Maybe we could help innocent people being harassed and bullied by belligerent neighbors?

Isn’t it our duty to help stop bad people from doing bad things?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And if you’d let go of your pompous arrogance for a second, you’d listen to me. (Or at least read my second post.)

If you’re going to hide behind moral equivalences, then why hold any standards at all?

Don’t the Catholics teach that breaking one commandment is breaking them all?
Why stop a pedophile? I’m sure you’ve had impure sexual thoughts.
Why stop a murderer? I’m sure you’ve hated someone at some point.

And why are you arguing with me, since my opinion is just as uninformed as yours?

I’m savoring all the ironies here: The pagan is standing up for morality while the good little Catholic won’t?
How you make your “everything’s just fine” attitude sound like the moral high ground.

Maybe you should become a pagan. The Catholic church really doesn’t have any legs to stand on does it? How many atrocities have been committed in the name of Catholicism? Catholics have invaded countries for no reason, haven’t they? Catholics have slaughtered innocent people.

But a lot of good things have been done in name of Catholicism too right? And the Church shouldn’t give up trying to do good things just because of some bad history, right?

So is it possible that the US can still good things too? Maybe we could help innocent people being harassed and bullied by belligerent neighbors?

Isn’t it our duty to help stop bad people from doing bad things?

I’m sorry, I am not following your post.

 

[MPat]

If I did believe that your question should be why on earth am I American, not why am I Catholic!

It might have been because you do not seem to be using the Just War Doctrine that much. You speak about killing and invading, but do not add that “unjustly” - which is what makes killing and invading wrong… After all, according to Just War Doctrine, killing and invading justly is actually good.

For example:

If you would step out and look at the situation without bias you can see that Russia is not flexing any more muscle than the US has been for decades with foreign policy. And in the real of history, well the US fought and killed it’s own citizens to keep the Union together.

In order to argue that American Civil War was wrong according to the Catholic doctrine (not that it matters that much at the moment), one shouldn’t just say that it included killing - one should argue that it was unjust.

1. Maybe Millions of innocent babies have been murdered.

Yes, that really is unjust - and that injustice shouldn’t be “played down”. Although it doesn’t seem to have much to do with the question at hand. One does not correct one injustice by ignoring another.

 

[tomarin]

I for one have never shared in the wholeheaded admiration for Putinist Russia that some Catholics seem to have (which stems, IMNAAHO, from the mistaken belief that socio-sexual conservatism is the Gospel).

What I still say, and to my American-based mind is most important, is that the Ukrainian conflict is not in any way our fight.

We need to dust off our collective hands, inhale deeply, and back out of the ring. We can’t afford anything else.

ICXC NIKA.

I think it’s our responsibility to speak out against blatant wrongdoing wherever we see it, regardless of whether Ukraine is “our fight” or not, strictly speaking. And it’s also worth mentioning that these matters often have a nasty habit of turning into “our fight” when you not attended to at the outset (cf. World War II). In other words, complacency emboldens sharp-eyed tyrants like Vladimir Putin.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Russia is the United State’s strong ally! It always was that way, and it will continue.

 

[KyrieEleison17]

Anyone following events in the Ukraine knows that much of the reactions we have seen are perfectly defensible and rational and there’s no reason not to have expected what has unfolded.

The new Ukrainian government, it must be stressed, has no technical legitimacy. This hopefully will be amended by the next and promised elections and a more concrete government with a more specific mandate will come to power. At present it is ambiguous as to just what this new order in Ukraine will mean in practical political terms both for Ukraine and abroad. Neighbouring countries would be ridiculously incompetent if they were not in part alarmed. The French Revolution had a ripple effect all across of Europe. Revolutionary passions move like a ripple in the water and it’s not always certain how they will behave or be interpreted, whether they will be tempered or whether or not they will unleash the nastiest passions of mankind.

The Kiev precedent is very dangerous for traditional democracy. A constitutional order was trampled upon at leisure by a sitting parliament/congress. The forces assembled in Kiev justified a revolution on two grounds:

1. A highly unpopular government decision, which was not even democratically permanent (a future gov could easily have reversed it); and
2. Allegations of corruption, mostly financial.

Coupled with popular protest this unseated not only a government but an entire constitutional order. The problem is, if the exact same thing happened in Washington, those protesters would largely be dead or in prison. We would not tolerate that in the West; however, we have decided to give it legitimacy in principle. This will backfire on us.

 

[MPat]

Anyone following events in the Ukraine knows that much of the reactions we have seen are perfectly defensible and rational and there’s no reason not to have expected what has unfolded.

There is a difference between what is moral (“perfectly defensible”) and what is expected. We can expect people to sin, but it doesn’t make sin moral.

The new Ukrainian government, it must be stressed, has no technical legitimacy.

I think you meant “legality”. When politics is concerned, “legitimacy” is the popular acceptance of the government - and the new government sure seems to have at least some.

Anyway, it is not a forum dedicated to Political science or Law, thus we should care more about morality of the action. And overthrow of a government can be moral provided that conditions set out in Cathechism paragraph 2243 are met (requirements are similar to the ones demanded by Just War Doctrine).

I guess we could have a separate thread for discussion concerning that…

This hopefully will be amended by the next and promised elections and a more concrete government with a more specific mandate will come to power. At present it is ambiguous as to just what this new order in Ukraine will mean in practical political terms both for Ukraine and abroad. Neighbouring countries would be ridiculously incompetent if they were not in part alarmed. The French Revolution had a ripple effect all across of Europe. Revolutionary passions move like a ripple in the water and it’s not always certain how they will behave or be interpreted, whether they will be tempered or whether or not they will unleash the nastiest passions of mankind.

The Kiev precedent is very dangerous for traditional democracy. A constitutional order was trampled upon at leisure by a sitting parliament/congress. The forces assembled in Kiev justified a revolution on two grounds:1. A highly unpopular government decision, which was not even democratically permanent (a future gov could easily have reversed it); and
2. Allegations of corruption, mostly financial.Coupled with popular protest this unseated not only a government but an entire constitutional order. The problem is, if the exact same thing happened in Washington, those protesters would largely be dead or in prison. We would not tolerate that in the West; however, we have decided to give it legitimacy in principle. This will backfire on us.

Well, I guess it could be argued that at some point it might have been morally permissible for the government to disperse the protesters using machine guns or something, just like it is permissible to use them against foreign enemy combatants. But it was certainly not morally permissible (and, I am pretty sure, not even close to being legal) to torture the captured protesters. And I guess that can be counted as a separate reason to overthrow that government.

By the way, it does look like an interesting question worthy a separate thread.

Anyway, all that is beside the point here. The point is that some relatively minor problems with Ukrainian government do not justify far more obviously morally (and legally) wrong actions by Russia. Otherwise everything was permissible, as it in most cases we can find some way in which the victim has sinned. After all, you wouldn’t accept accusation that the victim of robbery and murder was jaywalking a serious moral or legal defence, would you?

 

[MPat]

I think it’s our responsibility to speak out against blatant wrongdoing wherever we see it, regardless of whether Ukraine is “our fight” or not, strictly speaking. And it’s also worth mentioning that these matters often have a nasty habit of turning into “our fight” when you not attended to at the outset (cf. World War II). In other words, complacency emboldens sharp-eyed tyrants like Vladimir Putin.

I suppose there could be some circumstances under which “speaking out” was a bad idea… But at least avoiding to praise and defend the wrongdoing might be morally required…

 

[Durnford]

I look at Russia and I see a country that is returning to God in a big way. When I look at the US I see gay marriage, abortion, Hollywood and self indulgence. Russia will defend Christianity Obama will not. God is working through Mr Putin.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.

No. What did WW’s 1 and 2 get us? What did Vietnam get us? What has our recent escapades in the Near East get us? The Korean War is the only one I can think of that has had a lasting, good outcome.

I do think that Putin should examine his position more closely however. It is no secret that Russia is dying ( they aren’t making near enough babies ). There will come a time when Russia will need our help. Considering his present actions and his relationship with Iran, etc. perhaps he will not get any help from us.

Linus2nd

 

[Ridgerunner]

I look at Russia and I see a country that is returning to God in a big way. When I look at the US I see gay marriage, abortion, Hollywood and self indulgence. Russia will defend Christianity Obama will not. God is working through Mr Putin.

What the elites do does not necessarily determine the nature of a country. There a lot of things to consider in making moral judgments about nations if, indeed, one can legitimately do that.

It is very premature to say Russia is a country that is returning to God in a big way. Few actually go to church there. The Russian abortion rate is possibly the highest in the world. Refraining from knocking churches down and sending priests to Gulag, combined with a few bows to religion from Putin, does not make a “return to God in a big way”. How did Napoleon put it? “Paris is worth a Mass”. But he does invade countries that Russia twice agreed should be independent and include Crimea. Well, then there was the Georgia invasion and seizure too. Moldova will be next if eastern Ukraine is not.

There is more than one kind of evil in the world. And one of the 20th Century’s most evil individuals (Lenin) is still enshrined and honored in Moscow. The statue of another, Dzerzhinsky, is being refurbished for replacement in front of the Lubyanka. Russia is still half in love with the notion of the Soviet state, astonishingly evil though it was. It is half in love with it because it took for “greatness” what was actually murderous tyranny.

And consistent with the numerous past genocides of the Soviet state, Russians are now “ethnically cleansing” Crimea of ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars. And I have little doubt it’s supported by the majority of Russians.

I am not an admirer of Chechen culture, there is much about it that is anything but good. All the same, the Chechens are a subject people who do not want to be part of Russia. And yet, they are bombed, tortured, shot for wanting to be independent, and for what? There’s nothing in Chechnya that would be a natural addition to Russia except…yes…the oil Russia sells to the West. One remembers the “Terror Famine” in Ukraine during Soviet years, when Russia starved Ukrainians so it could sell their grain to the West. Not quite the same, but akin.

Russia missed its chance to be a moral state, a “converted” state. It missed the chance when it declined to have Nuremberg-style trials of people who were every bit as bad as Hitler’s worst people.

It missed its chance when it retained Lenin’s place of honor. It is STILL a custom in Moscow for newlyweds to visit Lenin’s tomb and view the evil man’s body. The bride leaves her flowers there. Russia missed its chance when it opted to put a KGB colonel in charge of the nation. Perhaps it was just too painful to face the evil it perpetrated on so many…or perhaps too many were complicit???

Far greater numbers of Americans than Russians attend church, though the record is not envious. The abortion rate, shameful as it is, is massively below Russia’s.

Russia could easily aid in defending Christianity in Syria, but does not. There are many places where it could, but does not. No, utilizes its forces to invades a weak state for national aggrandizement instead. Ukrainian Catholic church leaders have lamented the Russian conquest of crimea and the threat Russia poses to the rest of Ukraine. It is not lost on them that the Catholic Church is oppressed in Russia, for one thing.

We should stand in solidarity with those Church leaders, not with a KGB colonel.

 

[Tzimisce]

I’m sorry, I am not following your post.

I know you’re not.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I know you’re not.

Good, then I am not the only one who thinks that.

Thanks for the shot.

 

[Tridentine_MT]

Since March, the roles have changed. Crimea is now facing psychological warfare from Ukraine.

 

[GoldenRule712]

Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine.

If I were you, I would stop for a few minutes and ask myself: “Is my conception that this is happening the fruit of propaganda?”

 

[Paleocon]

Hitler began his conquests by rolling through neighboring countries and expanded his war in a mad grab for “Lebensraum” (which I understand as “breathing room”) for the German people. Now, in the name of protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea, Vladimir Putin is invading Ukraine. That’s a very stark way to put it, but who knows the future? It seems to me that Putin is asserting a territorial claim based on ethnic domination.

I would like to ask whether military intervention in Ukraine (at the request of Ukraine’s interim government) would be authorized under the Doctrine of Just War.

The interim government is illegitimate so no.

 

[Nelka]

Go to Ukraine and see what is happening for yourself.

What I see in western media is all one sided, it’s all propaganda.