Ukraine (cont.)

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Speaking as a USAnian here:

In what way is the Ukraine our fight?

If the West European nations aren’t concerned, why should we be?

Even though John Kerry has repudiated the old Monroe Doctrine, the fact remains that nations do have a sphere of influence. We have no more call to mess with the Russians in Ukraine, or Georgia, or any part of the old CCCP than they do to mix into us the next time we need to intervene in Latin America.

If the current international geometry leads into WW3 it will be because we overreached ourselves.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
 
German to English translation.

spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-panzer-der-ukrainischen-armee-wechseln-seiten-a-964690.html

**Crisis in eastern Ukraine: Ukrainian soldiers with tanks switch sides
**
*Dozens of Ukrainian soldiers with tanks have apparently changed sides.

The Ukrainian soldiers are supposed to provide peace in eastern Ukraine - but have dwindling support for the new government in Kiev. In Kramatorsk on Wednesday morning, six tanks of the Ukrainian army switched sides.

With the Russian flag and the flag of the Donetsk region they drove under the astonished gaze of the population of the city. A few people cheered them.

“We wait for weeks to eat anything reasonable, Kiev has forgotten us they’ve had enough of us,” cried one of the soldiers. “We are the people,” cried another. On each of the old tanks sat around a dozen of Ukrainian soldiers. On their uniform they wore some orange-black bow, the St. George’s band. The soldiers out to show that they share the Autonomous Republic of Donetsk and reject the new government in Kiev.

The convoy had come from the direction of 15 kilometers from town Kramatorsk, Reuters reported. The tank at the top wearing a Russian flag. On the roofs of the cars were sitting by the agency around 15 armed men in uniforms. They wore partly balaclavas and were armed with Kalashnikov rifles, grenade launchers, knives and pistols. One of the vehicles was wearing the emblem of the proclaimed by the separatist People’s Republic of Donetsk. Some residents of the city waved to the men and shouted, “Well done, guys,” “Russia, Russia” .

Also, AP reported of armored vehicles. One of the soldiers, who called himself Andrej, said his unit was part of the 25th Brigade of the Ukrainian Air Force and was now gone over to the pro-Russian forces.*
 
A few years ago this situation would have not escalated to this point. That was back when the United States was still considered a world power. Now it is no more than a joke in our adversaries eyes. Putin as well as the rest of the world knows that Washington has no stomach for a confrontation. If Putin pulls this off you can bet there will be small Japanese islands that will be under Chinas rule next. Trust me this will just start the ball rolling.
Not only is Washington impotent, the American people care not one whit about these things either. They are way too involved in carnal pleasures, making sure recreational drugs are legal and that the gay agenda has a place of prominence; to worry over such trivial matters.
It was good while it lasted but like other civilizations throughout history the USA has folded from within…really sad.
 
pepipop said:
German to English translation.

spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-panzer-der-ukrainischen-armee-wechseln-seiten-a-964690.html

**Crisis in eastern Ukraine: Ukrainian soldiers with tanks switch sides
**
*Dozens of Ukrainian soldiers with tanks have apparently changed sides.

The Ukrainian soldiers are supposed to provide peace in eastern Ukraine - but have dwindling support for the new government in Kiev. In Kramatorsk on Wednesday morning, six tanks of the Ukrainian army switched sides.

With the Russian flag and the flag of the Donetsk region they drove under the astonished gaze of the population of the city. A few people cheered them.

“We wait for weeks to eat anything reasonable, Kiev has forgotten us they’ve had enough of us,” cried one of the soldiers. “We are the people,” cried another. On each of the old tanks sat around a dozen of Ukrainian soldiers. On their uniform they wore some orange-black bow, the St. George’s band. The soldiers out to show that they share the Autonomous Republic of Donetsk and reject the new government in Kiev.

The convoy had come from the direction of 15 kilometers from town Kramatorsk, Reuters reported. The tank at the top wearing a Russian flag. On the roofs of the cars were sitting by the agency around 15 armed men in uniforms. They wore partly balaclavas and were armed with Kalashnikov rifles, grenade launchers, knives and pistols. One of the vehicles was wearing the emblem of the proclaimed by the separatist People’s Republic of Donetsk. Some residents of the city waved to the men and shouted, “Well done, guys,” “Russia, Russia” .

Also, AP reported of armored vehicles. One of the soldiers, who called himself Andrej, said his unit was part of the 25th Brigade of the Ukrainian Air Force and was now gone over to the pro-Russian forces.*
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And some even believe these contrived Russian stage plays. Those who invent them don’t, but some are either fooled or are complicit with Russian imperialism and ethnocentrism.
 
Seamus_L said:
And people in Odessa (which is quite a distance from the Russian border) are declaring a Peoples Republic. en.ria.ru/world/20140416/189242321/Local-Anti-Maidan-Movement-Declares-Establishment-of-Odessa.html Take a close look at the people holding the large Russian flag. Obviously they’re all Russian Special Forces.
Code: 
                            I think we're beginning to quickly see just how many people were alienated by the Euromaidan riots in Kiev.
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What nonsense! Such “independence movements” are very quick, as we have seen in Crimea, to give their “independence” to Russia. Kabuki theater, all of it. No one should believe this KGB propaganda. Fortunately, I don’t think many in the west do. Most, who know anything about history at all, recognize imperial conquest when they see it.

This is the Sudetenland and the Anschluss all over again, and played by the same kinds of players.
 
Russian speakers in the past couple months have witnessed the toppling of a government they voted for. Riot ringleaders openly state that “It’s time to start killing Russians”. Anti-Russian vigilantes assault people on the streets, beat up political candidates, and intimidate those of differing opinions at town hall meetings. And yet we’re supposed to believe that there’s very little anger from local people in places like Donetsk, and so Russian special forces and alleged “tourists” are having to be brought in to make it look a real.
 
GEddie said:
Speaking as a USAnian here:

In what way is the Ukraine our fight?

If the West European nations aren’t concerned, why should we be?

Even though John Kerry has repudiated the old Monroe Doctrine, the fact remains that nations do have a sphere of influence. We have no more call to mess with the Russians in Ukraine, or Georgia, or any part of the old CCCP than they do to mix into us the next time we need to intervene in Latin America.

If the current international geometry leads into WW3 it will be because we overreached ourselves.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Nobody wanted a nuclear exchange during the “Cold War”, and it didn’t happen. Western leaders actually cared about their people. At minimum, atheist Russian leaders regarded this life as the only one they would ever have, and didn’t want it ended. The life of Russian oligarchs is sweet, and they won’t throw it away. After all, what would Putin do with the 40 billion he has looted from the poverty-stricken Russian people if he was dead?

If crack NATO troops in significant numbers were, upon the Ukrainian government’s invitation (which has probably been tendered but rebuffed) present, Putin wouldn’t challenge them. Like Hitler moving into the Rhineland, Putin only needs one serious reverse and he’s finished.

What the world needs right now is a major uprising in Chechnya. But Putin probably thought ahead about that and killed every Chechen imaginably capable of mounting one.
Stalin, of course, did that, though it wasn’t a lasting victory because he didn’t kill them all.
 
Seamus_L said:
Russian speakers in the past couple months have witnessed the toppling of a government they voted for. Riot ringleaders openly state that “It’s time to start killing Russians”. Anti-Russian vigilantes assault people on the streets, beat up political candidates, and intimidate those of differing opinions at town hall meetings. And yet we’re supposed to believe that there’s very little anger from local people in places like Donetsk, and so Russian special forces and alleged “tourists” are having to be brought in to make it look a real.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Russian propaganda version of events is what it is. We know that. Actually, not all Russian speakers voted for Yanukovych, even in Eastern Ukraine.

Interesting how all of this anti-Russian feeling wasn’t there until Putin started infiltrating Russian military and conquering parts of Ukraine. Americans in WWII spoke of “killing Japs” after Pearl Harbor, too. Nothing new in that.

One should refer to Kyiv Andrew’s posts above demonstrating that most Russian speakers in Ukraine do not oppose the current government, and do not favor the Russian takeovers.
 
spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-nato-verstaerkt-militaerische-praesenz-im-osten-europas-a-964783.html

Ukraine crisis: Germany sends fighter jets to Eastern Europe

*NATO is serious: Due to the escalation in Ukraine strengthens the alliance’s troops in Eastern Europe - at sea, on land and in the air. Germany participates with a ship and six combat aircraft. Brussels - NATO strengthened in view of the Ukraine crisis its military presence in the eastern states of the Alliance. Within the next few days there will be a transfer of air, sea and land forces, says NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen in Brussels. “If necessary, will follow in the coming weeks and months further action.”

Rasmussen said the ships would set “in the Baltic Sea, the eastern Mediterranean and, if necessary, elsewhere” in march. The defense plans of NATO would be “reviewed and strengthened.” “We will have more planes in the air, more ships in the water, and we are in the country increased readiness,” he said.*
 
pepipop said:
Unbelievable! Only twitter but on BBC breaking news site.

All / No replies
BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 2h
Nato to deploy more planes and ships and reinforce land defences in eastern Europe as it responds to Ukraine crisis bbc.in/1gFHh6a
Expand

twitter.com/BBCBreaking?original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi%2FLiveUpdate_b59a5e3e-c559-11e3-96bd-12313b0b356a%2F0&tw_i=456391961721593856&tw_p=tweetembed
Click to expand...
With several NATO member countries feeling threatened by the increased aggression and threats, I can’t say I’m surprised by this move… Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia – all EU and NATO members with various levels of Russian-speakers among their populations – have been very worried about the increasingly inflammatory rhetoric directed toward them as well as toward Ukraine. And that’s not counting Sweden, a neutral country that isn’t even a member of NATO and has very very few Russian speaking residents, which has stated publicly that it feels threatened.
 
KyivAndrew said:
And where is Putin’s protection of ethnic Ukrainians living in Russia proper, the third largest ethnic group in Russia. Well, in Putin’s Russia Ukrainians are forbidden from having any Ukrainian schools, any newspapers in their native language, or even from establishing their own churches (i.e. Ukrainian Catholic, Ukrainian Orthodox Kyivan Patriarchate). The bigotry of the Russian government to anything Ukrainian among its Ukrainians citizens is mind-boggling. But this is acceptable to Putin. Were the current Ukrainian Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Ukrainian Orthodox (Kyivan) communities ever to find themselves under Russian rule in Ukraine, the consequences would be horrific in my opinion for them.
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The only Ukrainian-language school in Simferopol, Crimea, (and one of only 6 in all of Crimea) has already been closed.

reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-transition-idUSBREA3F0JX20140416

The lede: “Natalia Rudenko’s ears were still ringing from being shouted at by a father demanding that the Ukrainian-language school she has run for 17 years in Crimea’s capital now teach in Russian when local officials turned up at her office to dismiss her.”
 
AnastasiaRomano said:
With several NATO member countries feeling threatened by the increased aggression and threats, I can’t say I’m surprised by this move… Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia – all EU and NATO members with various levels of Russian-speakers among their populations – have been very worried about the increasingly inflammatory rhetoric directed toward them as well as toward Ukraine. And that’s not counting Sweden, a neutral country that isn’t even a member of NATO and has very very few Russian speaking residents, which has stated publicly that it feels threatened.
Click to expand...
Fortunately and thank God no-one has been injured or killed. But what exactly are those countries feeling threatened of, the Ukrainian people protesting against the current government which was also the case in December and was a lot more serious. There has been no violence or deaths - and all lit because of an overthrown government.
 
pepipop said:
Fortunately and thank God no-one has been injured or killed. But what exactly are those countries feeling threatened of, the Ukrainian people protesting against the current government which was also the case in December and was a lot more serious. There has been no violence or deaths - and all lit because of an overthrown government.
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Russia has made numerous statements expressing its deep concern for the treatment of Russian-speakers in Baltic countries. Considering that in Ukraine statements of concern for Russian-speakers have been followed by Crimea’s annexation and widespread unrest that the Baltic countries (and most every other country except Russia) believe to be coordinated/provoked/whatever word of choice by Russia, I’d say they’re pretty worried about parts of their countries being destabilized and annexed.
 
pepipop said:
Fortunately and thank God no-one has been injured or killed. But what exactly are those countries feeling threatened of, the Ukrainian people protesting against the current government which was also the case in December and was a lot more serious. There has been no violence or deaths - and all lit because of an overthrown government.
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Yes, there has been violence and death, and furthermore, the violence has been manufactured by Russia to destabilize the Ukraine, so it can ultimately annex parts of it.
 
GEddie said:
Speaking as a USAnian here:

In what way is the Ukraine our fight?

If the West European nations aren’t concerned, why should we be?

Even though John Kerry has repudiated the old Monroe Doctrine, the fact remains that nations do have a sphere of influence. We have no more call to mess with the Russians in Ukraine, or Georgia, or any part of the old CCCP than they do to mix into us the next time we need to intervene in Latin America.

If the current international geometry leads into WW3 it will be because we overreached ourselves.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Even if we don’t go to war over Ukraine, if Putin continues in his quest to expand Russia by invading/annexing other countries, something will have to be done. It will become our problem, and a bigger one at that.

P.S. Russia is a loose cannon at this point.
 
Story from the NY Times about Russian media coverage of Ukraine:

nytimes.com/2014/04/16/world/europe/russia-is-quick-to-bend-truth-about-ukraine.html?hp&_r=0
In essence, Moscow’s state-controlled news media outlets are loudly and incessantly calling on Ukraine and the international community to calm a situation that Ukraine, the United States and the European Union say the Kremlin is doing its best to destabilize.
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Even the United Nations weighed in. In a report released Tuesday, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said that threats to ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, cited repeatedly by Russian officials and in the Russian news media as a potential rationale for Russian military action, were exaggerated and that some participants in the protests in the region came from Russia.
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Over the course of several hours of coverage on Tuesday, Rossiya 24 reported that four to 11 peaceful, pro-Russian “supporters of federalization” in Ukraine were killed near the town of Kramatorsk in eastern Ukraine when a mixed force of right-wing Ukrainians and foreign mercenaries strafed an airfield with automatic gunfire from helicopter gunships before landing and seizing control.
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In fact, on the ground, a small crowd of residents surrounded a Ukrainian commander who had landed at the airfield in a helicopter, and while there were reports of stones thrown and shots fired in the air, only a few minor injuries were reported with no signs of fatalities.
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josie_L said:
Even if we don’t go to war over Ukraine, if Putin continues in his quest to expand Russia by invading/annexing other countries, something will have to be done. It will become our problem, and a bigger one at that.

P.S. Russia is a loose cannon at this point.
Click to expand...
How can any countries that were formerly part of the Soviet empire be sure Putin will stop once he annexes Eastern Ukraine or that he will even stop at the western border of Ukraine? When even neutral Sweden gets Russian overflights from Belarus sufficient to alarm the Swedes, former Russian colonies certainly should be concerned.

Are the Poles supposed to do nothing until the Russian armies are at the gates of Warsaw? Ukraine has learned to its sorrow and partial destruction what the consequences of being inadequately armed against Russian aggression leads to. Nobody wants to suffer a similar fate.
 
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