Ukraine (cont.)

[oldcatholicguy]

Obama, IMO has never been in a similar situation to this. Currently, all the US states are within the union of the USA. We’re not talking about a situation whereby Putin’s gone into a totally foreign country that has no cultural or heritable ties to Russia. The country is on his doorstep, Crimea and Russia have centuries of history together, 97% of the Crimeans still only speak Russian. Crimea saw the mess up North and asked for help, they got it - and are now hopefully getting what they always wanted, i.e. to be a republic, not a autonomous one.

Obviously, Putin is not stupid and will get something out of it too, however the EU/US helped start the rioting - Dr John Hulsman explained it best in a piece I posted yesterday, as below. Putin also doesn’t want any problems in relation to his getting access to Russia’s only warm water port.

If Putin goes off invading countries, that have nothing to do with Russia - for whatever reasons, then it all changes.

rt.com/shows/sophieco/ukraine-economy-rescue-politics-810/

One doesn’t deny one has troops in another country when all one is doing is responding to a request for help. Putin’s denial of Russian troops in the Crimea pretty much voids any real argument that Russia is just there to help.

 

[pepipop]

State sponsored thuggery is apparently ok to some people.

Yes, the West seem to think it’s OK by backing the new Ukrainian government. It has already tried to ban Russian as a second official language, (very diplomatic) in the first few days, and there are numerous videos posted, by Ukrainians, outwith Kiev showing they have been beaten and removed from office. No Western media is covering these occurrences.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11774067#post11774067

 

[pepipop]

One doesn’t deny one has troops in another country when all one is doing is responding to a request for help. Putin’s denial of Russian troops in the Crimea pretty much voids any real argument that Russia is just there to help.

No, he’s playing the game within the confines of international law. Aside from being asked to assist, he most likely knew he’d need to keep the Eastern Ukrainians off Crimea’s back, when they announced they wanted to be independent (with or without Russia), they would not have been safe, or allowed to go ahead and do so. Warm water port, and continued good relations with Crimea will also be part of the parcel.

 

[gilliam]

Has Putin broken international law?

by: Karen J. Alter is a professor of political science and law at Northwestern University and the author of* “The New Terrain of International Law: Courts, Politics, Rights.”*

(CNN) – President Barack Obama has said that Russian President Vladimir Putin has violated international law by sending troops into the Crimea. Law is on Obama’s side, which is why Putin is organizing his justification counter-offensive.

The United Nations charter (article 2(4)) prohibits “the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.” Ukrainian lawyers have said there are additional treaties Putin is violating.

Putin’s forces were apparently concerned enough about the U.N prohibition to strip the identifying markers off Russian soldiers before sending them into Crimea, and to now call these troops “local defense forces.” But removing their insignias does not change the facts.

Putin’s new tactic is to claim that Russia has been invited in. It is illegal to invade another country, but not illegal to send in help when a legitimate government requests it. Putin has asserted that Ukraine’s ousted president, Viktor F. Yanukovych, remains the Ukraine’s legitimate president, and he has asked for help. Putin may also be behind the influx of protest tourists to Ukraine who pretend they are Ukrainians asking for Russian help.

read the rest:
cnn.com/2014/03/05/opinion/alter-ukraine-international-law/

 

[Seamus_L]

America doesn’t have a leg to stand on in that argument. Think Panama, Kosovo, Iraq, etc.

 

[gilliam]

America doesn’t have a leg to stand on in that argument. Think Panama, Kosovo, Iraq, etc.

The ‘but what about’ justification isn’t very moralistic. It is like a middle school boy saying to the grocer after getting caught stealing “but Johnny did it.”

We could say (and I have seen it argued here) that the Church has no moral authority because of the Inquisition.

Putin is wrong. He is violating International law. That stands by itself. It doesn’t matter that the US nuked Japan. It doesn’t matter that Henry VIII killed his wives. Putin is violating International law; and that is wrong and the people of Ukraine deserve the international community standing for them.

 

[Tomdstone]

It doesn’t matter that the US nuked Japan.

I disagree. I think it matters a lot to the women and children who were killed by the nuclear bombing of Japan. And it matters to those who were not killed instantly, but had to suffer through life with the pain and disability caused by the radiation.

 

[mikekle]

I am curious what Russia is planning and what their big picture is concerning Ukraine. I know they pretty much control the southern portion of Chimera, but will Russia try to take control of the entire nation at some point?

The timing is strange to me, right after the olympics??? Plus, no one is even covering or airing ANY of the paralympics, which is pretty sad, I thought NBC was going to air most of it, but everytime I check NBC sports, nothing is said about it?

 

[pepipop]

Looks like they’re both now playing the, ‘you’re breaking the law’, card.
*
US to violate own laws by financially aiding Ukraine’s coup-installed govt – Moscow/I]

“Indeed, in accordance with the amendments introduced to the 1961 law (Foreign Assistance Act) a few years ago the provision of foreign assistance is prohibited to ‘the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree.’ The relevant provision is contained in 22 US Code § 8422,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

“Thus, by all criteria the provision of funds to the illegitimate [Kiev] regime, which seized power by force, is unlawful and goes beyond the boundaries of the US legal system,” the statement added.

tert.am/en/news/2014/03/12/us-russia/*

 

[Seamus_L]

Regardless of anything that Russia should do or not do, the Euromaidan riots that toppled Viktor Yanukhovych and the acting government that has replaced him, has made alot of Russian speakers in the far East and South of Ukraine, rather nervous about there future in a pro-Western Ukraine. Certainly, pro-secession types weren’t out in force on the streets of Donetsk, Kharkiv, Kerch, Simferopol, etc, prior to mob rule becoming the order of the day in Kiev.

 

[Miserissima]

So you’re admitting that these groups are on the fringe of society and thus do not represent the majority of pro-Ukrainian protestors, moreover, a picture such as this does not tell me much, in fact, I have no clue as to where and when it was taken, and if they really are pro-Ukrainian, but if they are, I’ve never denied that there are some fascists which exist within pro-Ukrainian ranks (but I don’t assume that they all are, as you and tombstone have implied). Moreover, I have noticed that there are fascists/neo-Nazi supremacists in the pro-Russian ranks as well (and they are causing lots of problems in Crimea and Donetsk).

I wish I could put this in a 1/2 page ad in each newspaper. Thanks!

 

[pepipop]

It could a total mess for quite some time - God bless the Ukrainians. A new government structure is required that will enable both sides to work together and be represented evenly.

Possibly something similar to the Good Friday agreement in NI. The underlined part is quite interesting in relation to the current situation.

*The Agreement acknowledged:
that the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom;
that a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland, and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland, wished to bring about a united Ireland.
Both of these views were acknowledged as being legitimate.
The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. Should that happen, then the British and Irish governments are under “a binding obligation” to implement that choice.

Equality and human rights[edit]

The Agreement affirmed a commitment to “the mutual respect, the civil rights and the religious liberties of everyone in the community”. The multi-party agreement recognised “the importance of respect, understanding and tolerance in relation to linguistic diversity”, especially in relation to the Irish language, Ulster Scots, and the languages of Northern Ireland’s ethnic minorities, “all of which are part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland”.*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I disagree. I think it matters a lot to the women and children who were killed by the nuclear bombing of Japan. And it matters to those who were not killed instantly, but had to suffer through life with the pain and disability caused by the radiation.

The only difference between the two nuclear bombings during WW2 and the conventional total war bombings during WW2 was the number of bombs used. Perhaps first you should understand why the nuclear bombings were immoral before trying to use them as a “see America has done bad stuff” example.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

No, he’s playing the game within the confines of international law. Aside from being asked to assist, he most likely knew he’d need to keep the Eastern Ukrainians off Crimea’s back, when they announced they wanted to be independent (with or without Russia), they would not have been safe, or allowed to go ahead and do so. Warm water port, and continued good relations with Crimea will also be part of the parcel.

Playing the game within the confines of international law wouldn’t have the leader of a nation denying his nation’s troops are in a country; nor would it involve said troops being “sanitized” for identification prior to being sent into the other country. Said actions are actually what one does when one is playing outside the confines of international law.

As for why Russia is doing this, you can stop at warm water port. Russia (the government) has no more concern for the people of Crimea than they do for the people of Syria.

 

[pepipop]

Playing the game within the confines of international law wouldn’t have the leader of a nation denying his nation’s troops are in a country; nor would it involve said troops being “sanitized” for identification prior to being sent into the other country. Said actions are actually what one does when one is playing outside the confines of international law.

As for why Russia is doing this, you can stop at warm water port. Russia (the government) has no more concern for the people of Crimea than they do for the people of Syria.

How does anyone know that? Look at my post in relation to NI and the Good Friday agreement, this is more similar to the situation at present. Does Ireland want NI - some will and some definitely won’t. Does Britain want NI, personally I’d very much doubt it but they’re stuck with it.

EDIT: Mind you,if NI struck oil of one of its’ coasts - it would be interesting to see how Ireland and Britain would react then.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

How does anyone know that? Look at my post in relation to NI and the Good Friday agreement, this is more similar to the situation at present. Does Ireland want NI - some will and some definitely won’t. Does Britain want NI, personally I’d very much doubt it but they’re stuck with it.

How does anyone know that? It’s very easy, all one has to do is look at international law. As for NI, I’m not familiar with Irish history. Did NI come about through England secretly sending troops into an independent Ireland, bottle up the Irish military in NI, then suddenly find itself with six counties wanting to become independent from Ireland with hints that it really wanted to be a part of a foreign country (England)? Because that’s what you are claiming when you try to compare what is going on in Ukraine to what took place in Ireland.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Yes, the West seem to think it’s OK by backing the new Ukrainian government. It has already tried to ban Russian as a second official language, (very diplomatic) in the first few days, and there are numerous videos posted, by Ukrainians, outwith Kiev showing they have been beaten and removed from office. No Western media is covering these occurrences.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11774067#post11774067

Yeah, you’re right the Western media isn’t covering what is really going on in Ukraine. That’s why we have seen Western reporters quit, sometimes on air, over the coverage. Oh wait, that would be Russian reporters quitting over Russian coverage. Let me guess, those reporters were really spies working as a part of some vast anti-Russian conspiracy.

 

[pepipop]

Yeah, you’re right the Western media isn’t covering what is really going on in Ukraine. That’s why we have seen Western reporters quit, sometimes on air, over the coverage. Oh wait, that would be Russian reporters quitting over Russian coverage. Let me guess, those reporters were really spies working as a part of some vast anti-Russian conspiracy.

Well the one that quit was a proud American citizen, in her words, the other girl is still on RT running her own shows. She then went onto CNN and said the below referenced. At least she didn’t get sacked.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, some of the shenanigans the NI nationalist politicians got up to were mind-blowing, but to give them their due they got results - not that anyone understood what they were aiming for at the time. (I’m not referring to the IRA and bloodshed).

*Martin told Morgan, “I knew going into that that I could put my job on the line, considering how the corporate media has fired multiple anchors for simply speaking out against the Iraq War.”

She insisted that her bosses give her “complete editorial freedom,” and when Morgan asked about other parts of the programming, she shot back that it’s “no different than any other corporate media station,” going off on how there are just a few corporations controlling the vast majority of media Americans consume.*

mediaite.com/tv/rt%E2%80%99s-abby-martin-goes-off-on-%E2%80%98corporate-media%E2%80%99-propaganda-during-piers-morgan-interview/

 

[Miserissima]

Well the one that quit was a proud American citizen, in her words, the other girl is still on RT running her own shows. She then went onto CNN and said the below referenced. At least she didn’t get sacked.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, some of the shenanigans the NI nationalist politicians got up to were mind-blowing, but to give them their due they got results - not that anyone understood what they were aiming for at the time. (I’m not referring to the IRA and bloodshed).

*Martin told Morgan, “I knew going into that that I could put my job on the line, considering how the corporate media has fired multiple anchors for simply speaking out against the Iraq War.”
*
She insisted that her bosses give her “complete editorial freedom,” and when Morgan asked about other parts of the programming, she shot back that it’s “no different than any other corporate media station,” going off on how there are just a few corporations controlling the vast majority of media Americans consume.

mediaite.com/tv/rt%E2%80%99s-abby-martin-goes-off-on-%E2%80%98corporate-media%E2%80%99-propaganda-during-piers-morgan-interview/

Ironic that RT encourages editorialization of news, but claims it’s better as reports only facts. Color me confused as to which source is more trustworthy.

 

[josie_L]

Regardless of anything that Russia should do or not do, the Euromaidan riots that toppled Viktor Yanukhovych and the acting government that has replaced him, has made alot of Russian speakers in the far East and South of Ukraine, rather nervous about there future in a pro-Western Ukraine. Certainly, pro-secession types weren’t out in force on the streets of Donetsk, Kharkiv, Kerch, Simferopol, etc, prior to mob rule becoming the order of the day in Kiev.

Why do they need to be out in the streets when the results have already been fixed?