Ukraine (cont.)

[AnastasiaRomano]

It has already tried to ban Russian as a second official language, (very diplomatic) in the first few days

The acting president of Ukraine vetoed that bill. And, in all fairness, I feel that it needs to be pointed out that the language law giving regional official status to minority languages was a recent addition to Ukraine’s legal system – it barely squeaked through the Ukrainian parliament in the summer of 2012 with the support of the Party of Regions. There were fistfights in the Verkhovna Rada while it was being debated.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine
Ukrainian was then and remains the only official national language – the 2012 law had given regional status to minority languages.

The language situation in Ukraine is quite interesting, because many native Russian speakers are also fluent in Ukrainian, at least those who are under 40 or so. That’s because schooling is mostly in Ukrainian. If you go to Ukraine, you can frequently encounter people having bilingual conversations. One person speaks in Ukrainian, the other person responds in Russian, and the conversation proceeds in that manner. Or the conversation may begin in one language, then switch to another. There’s also a lot of mixing of Russian and Ukrainian, with speakers of Ukrainian mixing in Russian words and speakers of Russian mixing in Ukrainian words. This is true even in the Russian-speaking parts of eastern Ukraine and Crimea – it isn’t “pure” or standard Russian as you’d hear spoken in Moscow, but it usually has a lot of Ukrainian loan words and expressions.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

Ukrainian secretary of defense says Ukraine now faces threat of “full-scale invasion”

kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/parubiy-ukraine-now-faces-the-threat-of-a-full-scale-invasion-339133.html

Parubiy estimates that more than 80,000 Russian troops have amassed along the Ukrainian border, along with as many as 270 tanks, 180 armored combat vehicles, 380 pieces of artillery, 18 rocket launchers, 140 combat aircraft, 90 military helicopters and 19 combat boats and ships.

Although the Russian government had promised to withdraw its troops conducting military drills near Ukraine’s borders, Parubiy said that the number of Russian troops along the Ukrainian border has actually increased in recent days.

…

He said that Ukraine’s Interior Ministry is seeing the first traces of the Russian incursion into continental Ukraine: Ukrainian troops recently apprehended several people in southern Kherson Oblast who were conducting “investigative intelligence activity.”

On March 11, the Security Service of Ukraine said investigators detained a Russian saboteur in the Donetsk region and accused him of preparing explosives and planning other acts of diversion.

Note that Kherson Oblast is where Russian forces set up a minefield and border fence, a story that was mentioned briefly in the first thread on Ukraine.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

“Crimean Tatars face tough choice: dig in, or flee”

kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/tatar-self-defense-339029.html

BAKHCHISARAY, Crimea – After an evening prayer in the town of Bakhchisaray in southern Crimea, a handful of Crimean Tatars stand guard near the mosque where they pray to protect it and their people from a possible attack by pro-Russian militarized groups and ordinary criminals who they say increasingly roam the peninsula since the invasion of Russian troops in late February.

In recent days, unknown persons have been going around Crimean Tatar villages and marking their homes with white crosses, sowing panic among many women and outraging the men.

The crosses are a particular outrage among the Tatars because that’s how Tatar homes were marked for deportation under Stalin…

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

“Tatars fear for the future in Crimea,” a video from the New York Times about the Crimean Tatars:

nytimes.com/video/multimedia/100000002762671/tatars-fear-for-the-future-in-crimea.html?playlistId=1194811622186

 

[josie_L]

The acting president of Ukraine vetoed that bill. And, in all fairness, I feel that it needs to be pointed out that the language law giving regional official status to minority languages was a recent addition to Ukraine’s legal system – it barely squeaked through the Ukrainian parliament in the summer of 2012 with the support of the Party of Regions. There were fistfights in the Verkhovna Rada while it was being debated.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine
Ukrainian was then and remains the only official national language – the 2012 law had given regional status to minority languages.

I mentioned in a previous post that the law put in place in 2012 was controversial, and that the usage of minority languages would be used in government agencies where the minority population exceeds 10%, but save your breath it will fall on deaf ears, and as such will be used to perpetuate the idea that those in the Ukrainian government are fascist, neo-Nazis who deserved to be invaded by Russians, err, I mean were “invited” into their country.

 

[josie_L]

“Crimean Tatars face tough choice: dig in, or flee”

kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/tatar-self-defense-339029.html

The crosses are a particular outrage among the Tatars because that’s how Tatar homes were marked for deportation under Stalin…

Now that’s a threat!! It’s going to be the minorities in the Crimea who are going to suffer, mark my words.

 

[pepipop]

Why do they need to be out in the streets when the results have already been fixed?

Exactly, the newly appointed government was fixed and is unfavourable to a lot of Ukrainians outwith Kiev. They’re on the streets in these regions to protest, just as the Kiev region protested against the last’s government’s decision to leave the EU. Needless to say, the protesters were unaware at that time, that they will not be able to work in other EU countries nor that austerity BIGTIME, will be on it’s way.

 

[josie_L]

Exactly,** the newly appointed government was fixed **and is unfavourable to a lot of Ukrainians outwith Kiev. They’re on the streets in these regions to protest, just as the Kiev region protested against the last’s government’s decision to leave the EU. Needless to say, the protesters were unaware at that time, that they will not be able to work in other EU countries nor that austerity BIGTIME, will be on it’s way.

No, it was not, i.e., a hundred people dead, thousands wounded, millions involved (nothing short of Yanukovych’s resignation would have stopped these people). Moreover, the situation in Crimea is such that with Russian occupation and a fixed referendum those who want to be annexed don’t have to protest, but those who don’t want to be will encounter trouble if they do.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, some of the shenanigans the NI nationalist politicians got up to were mind-blowing, but to give them their due they got results - not that anyone understood what they were aiming for at the time. (I’m not referring to the IRA and bloodshed).

Since you keep trying to equate what is going on in Ukraine with Northern Ireland, do you mind actually listing how the two are the same? I’m assuming you haven’t yet because you somehow missed post 36.

 

[pepipop]

No, it was not, i.e., a hundred people dead, thousands wounded, millions involved (nothing short of Yanukovych’s resignation would have stopped these people). Moreover, the situation in Crimea is such that with Russian occupation and a fixed referendum those who want to be annexed don’t have to protest, but those who don’t want to be will encounter trouble if they do.

You forgot about the snipers, which still no-one is owning up although it’s thought to be instigated by opposition members, i.e. the new government. There is a meeting today, I believe, with the UN to try to find out who was behind the sniper shootings.

Crimea. Lets look at it another way. Let’s say Crimea really wanted out of the newly governed Ukraine and as soon as possible, particularly as they’ve been autonomous for a long time now. How could they have done that, asked the new illegitimate government, could they pretty please leave the Ukraine, as they want out. Or work with the Russians to devise some form of plan that would enable them to get out.

There is no way Russia walked into Crimea uninvited. There would have been shots fired initially, definitely people wounded, possibly dead by the Crimean/Ukraine army and/or others. But nothing happened, complete calm - that is not what usually happens when a country is ‘unexpectedly’ invaded. There are always hotheads, people who fight back at the initial stages, people get shot and/or are killed, people don’t just roll over and accept it.

 

[pepipop]

Since you keep trying to equate what is going on in Ukraine with Northern Ireland, do you mind actually listing how the two are the same? I’m assuming you haven’t yet because you somehow missed post 36.

I’m using the comparison loosely, as opposed to the opinion that ‘Russia is taking over the world’ scenario, and trying to get back to being the USSR. I use it as a comparison, in that Russia is not ‘invading’ a foreign country without invitation, that it is in keeping with a situation where there are close ties between the countries involved and that the citizens (in this case Crimea) wish to be part of another country, i.e. similar to NI - either Britain or Ireland.

No world situation is ever completely the same as another, but similarities can be drawn to other situations that have occurred in the past.

 

[TaurusRex]

So all these countries have similar radical groups. And Ukraine is basically defenseless, And Putin is building walls of separation and segregation under a police state. An idea the West abandoned long ago.

Also are you saying this coincides with New Testament teaching with intimidation, suppression and oppression and the West ought to implement these tactics. Would you say this if this were you in the persecuted group? I don’t understand.

What truth is the West blind to, is that the Christian West, the radical groups in the West, the secular West, the KKK and neo Nazi West, the communist or socialism West. Or just generally speaking, all of them?

Wow …
One can only :bowdown: to this post in awe

:tiphat:

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’m using the comparison loosely, as opposed to the opinion that ‘Russia is taking over the world’ scenario, and trying to get back to being the USSR. I use it as a comparison, in that Russia is not ‘invading’ a foreign country without invitation, that it is in keeping with a situation where there are close ties between the countries involved and that the citizens (in this case Crimea) wish to be part of another country, i.e. similar to NI - either Britain or Ireland.

No world situation is ever completely the same as another, but similarities can be drawn to other situations that have occurred in the past.

Ah, so Russia didn’t invade the Ukraine, it was invited in. So Putin was apparently lying when he claimed no Russian troops (outside those allowed by treaty) were in the Ukraine. Now why would he have to lie if Russia wasn’t invading, but was invited in?

As for NI, unless the people living in NI were citizens of an independent Ireland the comparison is so loose as to be of no value. A foreign power sending in troops to another country’s territory due to that country’s internal issues is no where near the same or comparable to a country sending in troops to it’s own territory to deal with it’s own internal issues.

 

[josie_L]

You forgot about the snipers, which still no-one is owning up although it’s thought to be instigated by opposition members, i.e. the new government. There is a meeting today, I believe, with the UN to try to find out who was behind the sniper shootings.

Bring it on.

Crimea. Lets look at it another way. Let’s say Crimea really wanted out of the newly governed Ukraine and as soon as possible, particularly as they’ve been autonomous for a long time now. How could they have done that, asked the new illegitimate government, could they pretty please leave the Ukraine, as they want out. Or work with the Russians to devise some form of plan that would enable them to get out.

We’ll never really know we will because Russia occupied the Ukraine.

There is no way Russia walked into Crimea uninvited. There would have been shots fired initially, definitely people wounded, possibly dead by the Crimean/Ukraine army and/or others. But nothing happened, complete calm - that is not what usually happens when a country is ‘unexpectedly’ invaded. There are always hotheads, people who fight back at the initial stages, people get shot and/or are killed, people don’t just roll over and accept it.

Have you forgotten Georgia, and yes, Putin could walk into Crimea uninvited because he did, i.e., while the nation was still mourning the loss of a hundred of it’s civilians and pulling itself together. That no shots were fired was due to the fact that they invaded Crimea in a stealth manner (it was unexpected); they barricaded military bases, roads, airports in order to fend off an attack by Ukrainian forces.

 

[josie_L]

Ah, so Russia didn’t invade the Ukraine, it was invited in. So Putin was apparently lying when he claimed no Russian troops (outside those allowed by treaty) were in the Ukraine. Now why would he have to lie if Russia wasn’t invading, but was invited in?

As for NI, unless the people living in NI were citizens of an independent Ireland the comparison is so loose as to be of no value. A foreign power sending in troops to another country’s territory due to that country’s internal issues is no where near the same or comparable to a country sending in troops to it’s own territory to deal with it’s own internal issues.

At times, I feel there is no point to these discussions, people will see what they want to see.

 

[J_Peterson]

You forgot about the snipers, which still no-one is owning up although it’s thought to be instigated by opposition members, i.e. the new government. There is a meeting today, I believe, with the UN to try to find out who was behind the sniper shootings.

Crimea. Lets look at it another way. Let’s say Crimea really wanted out of the newly governed Ukraine and as soon as possible, particularly as they’ve been autonomous for a long time now. How could they have done that, asked the new illegitimate government, could they pretty please leave the Ukraine, as they want out. Or work with the Russians to devise some form of plan that would enable them to get out.

There is no way Russia walked into Crimea uninvited. There would have been shots fired initially, definitely people wounded, possibly dead by the Crimean/Ukraine army and/or others. But nothing happened, complete calm - that is not what usually happens when a country is ‘unexpectedly’ invaded. There are always hotheads, people who fight back at the initial stages, people get shot and/or are killed, people don’t just roll over and accept it.

There were shots fired. The Ukranian solders knew well enough to back off as they were unarmed.

 

[pepipop]

Ah, so Russia didn’t invade the Ukraine, it was invited in. So Putin was apparently lying when he claimed no Russian troops (outside those allowed by treaty) were in the Ukraine. Now why would he have to lie if Russia wasn’t invading, but was invited in?

As for NI, unless the people living in NI were citizens of an independent Ireland the comparison is so loose as to be of no value. A foreign power sending in troops to another country’s territory due to that country’s internal issues is no where near the same or comparable to a country sending in troops to it’s own territory to deal with it’s own internal issues.

The reason, I mentioned the Good Friday agreement and NI, was in response to the post below, nothing to do with who invaded/invited who. It was in relation to the disquiet between the different sectors in Ukraine. I answered re: my opinion on Putin and the Crimea situ. in several other posts today.

Re: Ukraine (cont.)
Regardless of anything that Russia should do or not do, the Euromaidan riots that toppled Viktor Yanukhovych and the acting government that has replaced him, has made alot of Russian speakers in the far East and South of Ukraine, rather nervous about there future in a pro-Western Ukraine. Certainly, pro-secession types weren’t out in force on the streets of Donetsk, Kharkiv, Kerch, Simferopol, etc, prior to mob rule becoming the order of the day in Kiev.

 

[pepipop]

Bring it on.

We’ll never really know we will because Russia occupied the Ukraine.

Have you forgotten Georgia, and yes, Putin could walk into Crimea uninvited because he did, i.e., while the nation was still mourning the loss of a hundred of it’s civilians and pulling itself together. That no shots were fired was due to the fact that they invaded Crimea in a stealth manner (it was unexpected); they barricaded military bases, roads, airports in order to fend off an attack by Ukrainian forces.

Putin’s “invasion” has so far cost a total of zero lives. The “liberation” of Iraq has cost over 100,000 lives, including over 3,000 in last year alone. Hence in relation to human lives the invasion has cost none. Crimea wanted autonomy and, if the referendum is accepted, which is unlikely, it will have its’ wish. Either way, the referendum result will be used as an negotiating tool at a later date.

 

[josie_L]

Putin’s “invasion” has so far cost a total of zero lives. The “liberation” of Iraq has cost over 100,000 lives, including over 3,000 in last year alone. Hence in relation to human lives the invasion has cost none. Crimea wanted autonomy and, if the referendum is accepted, which is unlikely, it will have its’ wish. Either way, the referendum result will be used as an negotiating tool at a later date.

Did I ever mention Iraq, and Putin’s occupation of the Ukraine is an invasion, it’s why he had to use the pretext of being “invited” by a government he himself put into power. And Crimea did have autonomy, what you are seeing now is nothing more than a hostile takeover. And the only thing this sham of a referendum is going to accomplish is solidifying Putin’s power over Crimea, and as a result the Ukraine, which is the whole point of the invasion. Believe it, don’t believe, but I won’t be force fed lies.

 

[pepipop]

Did I ever mention Iraq, and Putin’s occupation of the Ukraine is an invasion, it’s why he had to use the pretext of being “invited” by a government he himself put into power. And Crimea did have autonomy, what you are seeing now is nothing more than a hostile takeover. And the only thing this sham of a referendum is going to accomplish is solidifying Putin’s power over Crimea, and as a result the Ukraine, which is the whole point of the invasion. Believe it, don’t believe, but I won’t be force fed lies.

Me neither, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.